Birth control.

[benedictaoo]

I didn't water it down. There is no obligation to follow an example of a Saint that let themselves be raped or take their personal revelations as Gospel. Simple as that.

Am I in the twilight zone or what? Y'all aren't even making sense at this point.

If we are trying to avoid hell, then I can only assume we want to be in heaven. Well guess what? You got to be a saint to be there. How do we get to be one? Hmmm, well I do not know, lets look to the Saints to see how they did it.

Geeze. Are y'all getting any of this now?

I did not say that you have to follow them exactly and be raped. To do what they did exactly but in Catholicism, you do have to embrace and accept your own cross that you have been given.

The Saint's story is there for what? For why? To encourage us that if they can stand up to the extreme end of the spectrum- we can stand up to what we have been given because it is nothing compared to them. That is it. that is the point but you say no... we do not have to think what they did was right. And we do not have to emulate their courage even believe their visions or the God spoke to them. Okay fine, you are right. You don't have to... that is really stupid IMO IF the goal is to avoid hell and get to heaven.

You love EWTN, right? Mother A. is a Traditionalisms hero nun, right? well what did she say? "We are all called to be Saints, don't miss the opportunity". The Saints are there to encourage us , uplift us, TEACH us a thing or two and they give us hope and to show us the way, that yes, it can be done. You say, no. I do not have to listen to that, to take that path, I can take my own... What other path is there? Jesus's? Nice false dichotomy there that does not exist. Its all one path and that road is sacrifice and suffering.


Geeze... why is this so hard for you to understand? You are no different from Mike or me or Gwen. You don't like that straight and narrow and you go into denial about how we teach this is the way. We admit and are vociferous about it. Mike and Gwen lost faith because of it.

If we want to not go to hell and are scared of hell then the path to heaven is Sainthood. There is just no 3rd option, another path. That is the path Jesus took. It is paved with crosses, sacrifices and suffering.

I can relate with like St Theresa of Avila... If this is the way, no wonder people struggle because its hard for us to believe that if God as a Father to us know we are in pain, it's hard pill to swallow that he leaves us in pain for our good. We just do not see why its good. So the Saints are there to break it down and show us how its good.

And yes, the Saints talked about joy amidst suffering and I grasp that and know that joy can only come through acceptance. Accepting Gods will no matter how illogical and mean it seems. And you know how I know that? The Saints told us.

 

[Michie]

Are you speaking to me? Because Kierkegaard is a 19th century author and philosopher, and Dostoyvesky was a 20th century author. I'm not so sure that's "medieval," (which generally is considered under most liberal estimates to exist from about 529-1453) but I am sure that literature, like much of culture, helps us to understand the subjective side of spiritual experiences, because they are human beings with hearts, minds, and memories.

I like a phrase by St. Francis de Sales that I regularly repeat about the saints: some saints are supposed to be admired, others to be imitated.

The saints that we admire are ones that do fantastical things. Sometimes their visions aren't meant for us. Some are passed down to us with an admixture of superstition. But we can see in many saints at the same time their humanity touched by grace. It is that which is supposed to inspire us to imitate them, as they imitated Christ. St. Paul said something similar about his own life experience and actions.

You put it better than me. I can enjoy their reflections & writings but I was speaking of personal revelations & actions. I don't relate to all of them & therefore do not have to take their experiences & personal revelations & apply them to my faith life. We can glean what we are attracted to from saints..all of them but we are under no obligation to follow them. Most Catholics like me read about them & learn from them of course take what they can use & leave what they can't. We don't have to take everything they say as Gospel & useful to each & every one of us. Most pick out someone they can relate to if they want to follow a saint's example. But again, there is no obligations in that. I read the Saints as those that have gone before us but I take into account the time, place & culture as well. And I realize that personal revelation & actions are theirs alone & could very well contradict another Saints personal revelation or action.

 

[benedictaoo]

Are you speaking to me? Because Kierkegaard is a 19th century author and philosopher, and Dostoyvesky was a 20th century author. I'm not so sure that's "medieval," (which generally is considered under most liberal estimates to exist from about 529-1453) but I am sure that literature, like much of culture, helps us to understand the subjective side of spiritual experiences, because they are human beings with hearts, minds, and memories.

I like a phrase by St. Francis de Sales that I regularly repeat about the saints: some saints are supposed to be admired, others to be imitated.

The saints that we admire are ones that do fantastical things. Sometimes their visions aren't meant for us. Some are passed down to us with an admixture of superstition. But we can see in many saints at the same time their humanity touched by grace. It is that which is supposed to inspire us to imitate them, as they imitated Christ. St. Paul said something similar about his own life experience and actions.

But I don't have to imitate them, or emulate them or even believe their visions. I can just follow Jesus instead. I can think they were mentally ill or maybe even making stuff up.

 

[Tallguy88]

LOL. You are quoting the mystics and Michie and tallguy says we do not have to believe them... like, what do they know? Some medieval stuff meant for their ears only that prove nothing, do nothing. Follow Jesus, he is enough.

Lie about me one more time, and I will report you for flaming.

 

[Michie]

Am I in the twilight zone or what? Y'all aren't even making sense at this point.

If we are trying to avoid hell, then I can only assume we want to be in heaven. Well guess what? You got to be a saint to be there. How do we get to be one? Hmmm, well I do not know, lets look to the Saints to see how they did it.

Geeze. Are y'all getting any of this now?

I did not say that you have to follow them exactly and be raped. To do what they did exactly but in Catholicism, you do have to embrace and accept your own cross that you have been given.

The Saint's story is there for what? For why? To encourage us that if they can stand up to the extreme end of the spectrum- we can stand up to what we have been given because it is nothing compared to them. That is it. that is the point but you say no... we do not have to think what they did was right. And we do not have to emulate their courage even believe their visions or the God spoke to them. Okay fine, you are right. You don't have to... that is really stupid IMO IF the goal is to avoid hell and get to heaven.

You love EWTN, right? Mother A. is a Traditionalisms hero nun, right? well what did she say? "We are all called to be Saints, don't miss the opportunity". The Saints are there to encourage us , uplift us, TEACH us a thing or two and they give us hope and to show us the way, that yes, it can be done. You say, no. I do not have to listen to that, to take that path, I can take my own... What other path is there? Jesus's? Nice false dichotomy there that does not exist. Its all one path and that road is sacrifice and suffering.


Geeze... why is this so hard for you to understand? You are no different from Mike or me or Gwen. You don't like that straight and narrow and you go into denial about how we teach this is the way. We admit and are vociferous about it. Mike and Gwen lost faith because of it.

If we want to not go to hell and are scared of hell then the path to heaven is Sainthood. There is just no 3rd option, another path. That is the path Jesus took. It is paved with crosses, sacrifices and suffering.

I can relate with like St Theresa of Avila... If this is the way, no wonder people struggle because its hard for us to believe that if God as a Father to us know we are in pain, it's hard pill to swallow that he leaves us in pain for our good. We just do not see why its good. So the Saints are there to break it down and show us how its good.

And yes, the Saints talked about joy amidst suffering and I grasp that and know that joy can only come through acceptance. Accepting Gods will no matter how illogical and mean it seems. And you know how I know that? The Saints told us.

Bene, I never said anything about a Saint being right or wrong. I don't disagree that Saints are friends & examples. I just don't get your gripe with anything I said. You are arguing something in your own mind. Everything you are preaching about I never brought up & you are acting as if I did. Again, I didn't.

 

[Irenaeus]

Exactly, Michie.

The one common thing in every saint's life is: the perfection of charity, because the perfection of charity is the perfection of the Spiritual Life.

The ways this charity can be manifested are as countless as the Spirit is powerful. For some, charity was expressed by great penance. Others served the poor in a particular way. Still others studied and taught the faith, and defended it from error. Some raised good children and were a good spouse.

So if you find a Saint whose "way" appeals to you, that's perfectly normal. It's also perfectly normal if some do not. The reason I recommend the reading of lives of the Saints isn't for pietism or a fixation on the miraculous: I do it because it is inspiring, and because the Saints are the masterpieces of God's grace. In my opinion, they are one of the most powerful evidences the Catholic Church has for her divine origin, because the power of the divinizing grace within them is so great, they did things which are unexplainable by human power alone.

 

[Tallguy88]

Are you speaking to me? Because Kierkegaard is a 19th century author and philosopher, and Dostoyvesky was a 20th century author. I'm not so sure that's "medieval," (which generally is considered under most liberal estimates to exist from about 529-1453) but I am sure that literature, like much of culture, helps us to understand the subjective side of spiritual experiences, because they are human beings with hearts, minds, and memories.

I like a phrase by St. Francis de Sales that I regularly repeat about the saints: some saints are supposed to be admired, others to be imitated.

The saints that we admire are ones that do fantastical things. Sometimes their visions aren't meant for us. Some are passed down to us with an admixture of superstition. But we can see in many saints at the same time their humanity touched by grace. It is that which is supposed to inspire us to imitate them, as they imitated Christ. St. Paul said something similar about his own life experience and actions.

I'm quite interested in reading the saints and mystics, despite what certain people have falsely said about me.

Do you have any book recommendations, or specific saints, for someone who is not terribly familiar with the subject?

 

[benedictaoo]

You put it better than me. I can enjoy their reflections & writings but I was speaking of personal revelations & actions. I don't relate to all of them & therefore do not have to take their experiences & personal revelations & apply them to my faith life. We can glean what we are attracted to from saints..all of them but we are under no obligation to follow them. Most Catholics like me read about them & learn from them of course take what they can use & leave what they can't. We don't have to take everything they say as Gospel & useful to each & every one of us. Most pick out someone they can relate to if they want to follow a saint's example. But again, there is no obligations in that. I read the Saints as those that have gone before us but I take into account the time, place & culture as well. And I realize that personal revelation & actions are theirs alone & could very well contradict another Saints personal revelation or action.

and I'm telling you straight up that if a person remains skeptical of and afraid of what the Saints said and did, they will only go so far. This is NOT about just staying out of hell but its about becoming HOLY, a Saint yourself. Divinization. Transformation. Becoming what we were redeemed to be CHILDREN of God. It should not be just about staying out of hell. That is NOT Catholicism.

 

[Irenaeus]

But I don't have to imitate them, or emulate them or even believe their visions. I can just follow Jesus instead. I can think they were mentally ill or maybe even making stuff up.

You're not understanding what I said.

I said some Saint's lives can be matter for imitation/emulation (those are almost the same thing, benedicta). If anything, they are a "supplementary" help for the Christian life. If I were stuck on a desert island, I would rather have a copy of the Gospels than Butler's Lives of the Saints.

Of course you can think they were mentally ill...I don't see why you would, because quite clearly many were not, but I suppose you are free to say that.

However, is it probable that they are mentally ill or making some stuff up? It depends on the saint. On the whole, though, I think they are trustworthy. For instance, take a Francis de Sales or an Augustine, or Mother Teresa. These people would probably pass a psychological inventory with minimal problems.

 

[benedictaoo]

Lie about me one more time, and I will report you for flaming.

I am speaking to michie and Irenaous, not you. You aren't even in this conversation as far as I am concerned.

 

[Irenaeus]

I'm quite interested in reading the saints and mystics, despite what certain people have falsely said about me.

Do you have any book recommendations, or specific saints, for someone who is not terribly familiar with the subject?

What are your interests? What would you say your personality is like? These would really help to know before I suggest anything, because there is so much out there, and so little time !

It also depends on how much you have read already.

 

[Michie]

But I don't have to imitate them, or emulate them or even believe their visions.

You follow Jesus if a person chooses to follow an example of a saint's actions & believe their personal revelations, they can. But you can read them & that can be that. Not all are useful to every Catholic & their own spiritual walk.

I can just follow Jesus instead. I can think they were mentally ill or maybe even making stuff up.

I did not say the were making stuff up. That is what you are doing right now. Given their disciplines & lack of food, etc. It is not suprising they saw visions. But I don't have to believe them as Gospel & apply them to my faith life. Were some mentally ill? Possibly. But does mental illness exclude someone from being saint? I vote no. I follow Jesus, nothing wrong with that. The Saints did the same under the wings of the Church. Same as me. You'll find no walk is exactly the same. The saints are examples & can be inspirational & pray for us. But them...me, we all follow Christ. We all aren't going to do it the same way. Even in good standing with the RCC.

 

[benedictaoo]

You're not understanding what I said.

I said some Saint's lives can be matter for imitation/emulation (those are almost the same thing, benedicta). If anything, they are a "supplementary" help for the Christian life. If I were stuck on a desert island, I would rather have a copy of the Gospels than Butler's Lives of the Saints.

Of course you can think they were mentally ill...I don't see why you would, because quite clearly many were not, but I suppose you are free to say that.

However, is it probable that they are mentally ill or making some stuff up? It depends on the saint. On the whole, though, I think they are trustworthy. For instance, take a Francis de Sales or an Augustine, or Mother Teresa. These people would probably pass a psychological inventory with minimal problems.

Ya'll have all just freakin lost it... y'all should be so ashamed. I was being sarcastic.. that is what MICHIE said! Not me. I don't have a problem with the Saints. Can you get on the same page as this thread or what?? I do not have a problem with the mystics, your girl michie does...

 

[Irenaeus]

For the record, this is what Michie said:

You put it better than me. I can enjoy their reflections & writings but I was speaking of personal revelations & actions. I don't relate to all of them & therefore do not have to take their experiences & personal revelations & apply them to my faith life. We can glean what we are attracted to from saints..all of them but we are under no obligation to follow them. Most Catholics like me read about them & learn from them of course take what they can use & leave what they can't. We don't have to take everything they say as Gospel & useful to each & every one of us. Most pick out someone they can relate to if they want to follow a saint's example. But again, there is no obligations in that. I read the Saints as those that have gone before us but I take into account the time, place & culture as well. And I realize that personal revelation & actions are theirs alone & could very well contradict another Saints personal revelation or action.

Then Benedicta, you said...

and I'm telling you straight up that if a person remains skeptical of and afraid of what the Saints said and did, they will only go so far. This is NOT about just staying out of hell but its about becoming HOLY, a Saint yourself. Divinization. Transformation. Becoming what we were redeemed to be CHILDREN of God. It should not be just about staying out of hell. That is NOT Catholicism.

Benedicta, I'm not trying to make this personal, but where did you read in anything Michie just said anything remotely referencing hell, or denying the need for transformative holiness? I'm confused.

 

[Tallguy88]

I am speaking to michie and Irenaous, not you. You aren't even in this conversation as far as I am concerned.

Really?

Michie and tallguy says we do not have to believe them....

You may not be talking TO me, but you're still talking ABOUT me.

 

[Irenaeus]

Ya'll have all just freakin lost it... y'all should be so ashamed. I was being sarcastic.. that is what MICHIE said! Not me. I don't have a problem with the Saints. Can you get on the same page as this thread or what?? I do not have a problem with the mystics, your girl michie does...

If you're being sarcastic, use emotes or some other sort of verbal cue, because this is an internet forum where sarcasm and humor and other subtle verbal hints are not present. Your language, if you want to be understood, has to be razor sharp, or at least sharp enough to get your point across.

The problem in this is not because we're "losing it", but because when you say things, we are taking them at face value. Use things like the smilies, anything. I'm trying to find where you're coming from.

And Michie does not have a problem with mystics. I never read that in anything she just said.

 

[benedictaoo]

Irenaeous, you want to be a big grown up correcting people? here you go, here is your chance. Michie said something that was wrong. MikeK and myself only and just corrected her and it brought it to this place. She said something wrong in her attempt to schmooze it with a Protestant.

How about you be objective and stop being prejudice against me and talk to her about it. Obviously she is the one who struggles, not me. Maybe you could read my actual word instead of not reading them.

 

[Tallguy88]

What are your interests? What would you say your personality is like? These would really help to know before I suggest anything, because there is so much out there, and so little time !

It also depends on how much you have read already.

I'm a logical person. Experience and reason are the keys to my understanding and Internalizing to things. Mysticism isn't something I'm good at, or even prayer for that matter. Rote, memorized prayers are the ones I'm most comfortable with.

 

[benedictaoo]

For the record, this is what Michie said:



Then Benedicta, you said...



Benedicta, I'm not trying to make this personal, but where did you read in anything Michie just said anything remotely referencing hell, or denying the need for transformative holiness? I'm confused.

I dunno- maybe 5 pages back? get up to speed, will ya? You just do not know what you are talking about.

 

[Michie]

and I'm telling you straight up that if a person remains skeptical of and afraid of what the Saints said and did, they will only go so far. This is NOT about just staying out of hell but its about becoming HOLY, a Saint yourself. Divinization. Transformation. Becoming what we were redeemed to be CHILDREN of God. It should not be just about staying out of hell. That is NOT Catholicism.

Of course it is about being holy & spending eternity with God. I don't know where you are getting it's all about staying out of hell. Of course it isn't. It is about loving God & being transformed by Him. But we are called to avoid hell set our goals towards heaven. Not just do the right thing because we like to. God has to be in it. We don't do what we do because we like it all the time. Jesus himself gave examples of heaven as a goal for us & warnings of avoiding hell. Just part of it.