Birth Control???

[dies-l]

Catholics do.

Do they? Some might, but I don't think that this is a teaching of the RCC.

 

[Alyssum]

Catholics do I don't understand it because there is no Biblical basis for that doctrine.

Are you sure about that? I am not Catholic (obviously I'm in the Baptist forum), but my understanding is that they are opposed to birth control, not sex with one's spouse in general.

 

[Bryne]

The are opposed to artificial birth control. They do not teach that sex is only for procreating. They teach that it also serves to unite the husband and wife.

 

[LinuxUser]

The are opposed to artificial birth control. They do not teach that sex is only for procreating. They teach that it also serves to unite the husband and wife.

But, and a big but in Catholic Theology, is that the couple must always be open to life. So they have changed the words but it still basically boils down to the same thing they had for centuries that sex between a couple is just for procreation. In fact there is a thread right now in OBOB about this and how one couple under Catholic rubrics can not have relations at all because being pregnant could hurt the wife.

I think that kind of thing should be between the couple and God, not an institution though I could be wrong

 

[MichaelKelley]

I have had a few Catholic friends state to me that my being on birth control is a form of early abortion. I just don't feel this way. Is it hypocritical to be completely against abortion and Plan B pills why taking birth control yourself? I have been married a year and am in nursing school. I am just not ready to have children yet, I have so much more that needs to be accomplished. If you would not consider birth control a form of early abortion what would be your response to the argument that it is? Just really lost on this issue.

Abortion is a satanic sacrifice that involves the shedding of blood of the innocent child. Birth control or condoms do not involve killing a child, shedding the blood, but rather, just keep the sperm from ever fertilizing the egg. If the sperm never fertilizes the egg, there is never conception and thus, there is never a child to be murdered. I do not think there is anything wrong with birth control, condoms, etc., AS LONG AS the two involved are married, which you have stated you are.

The 69th Chapter of the Book of Enoch states various things that the fallen angels who descended upon Mount Hermon in the days of Jared taught to man during the corruption that occurred in the antediluvian world. Verse 12 states, "And the fifth was named Kasdeja, this is he who showed the children of men all the wicked smitings of spirits and demons, and the smitings of embryo in the womb that it may pass away, the smitings of the soul the bites of the serpent..."

We are told in Leviticus 17:11 that "the life of the flesh is in the blood," and that God has "given it to [us] on the altar to make atonement for [our] souls." In the occult, there is a lot of blood-letting, such as 1 Kings 18:28, which states that the prophets of Baal, desperate for their god to send fire down upon their altar in front of Isaiah, began to "cut themselves according to their custom with swords and lances until the blood gushed out of them."

This mocks the blood of Christ by which we receive forgiveness (Hebrews 9:22), and abortion is one of the biggest sacrifices to the forces of darkness in our society that is pushing the world into the rapidly approaching Great Tribulation. Pushing the world into a time "as it was in the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37), the return of the Antichrist, Azazel (Enoch 10; Revelation 9:11), after the Rapture when we; the body of Christ, the Restrainer; are "taken out of the way" (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8).

But, birth control is okay as there never is a child that comes that can be killed. I also would like to clarify that if the mother's life is in danger as a result of the pregnancy, I do NOT think it would be a satanic sacrifice. If the mother's life is in danger, it would not be to murder the child but rather to save the life of the mother and thus, would not be a sacrifice. But, done for any other reason than to save someone's life, it is murder, and thus, a sacrifice of a child, allowing demonic forces to manifest (i.e. the UFO phenomenon).

 

[*Army_Wife*]

Abortion is a satanic sacrifice that involves the shedding of blood of the innocent child. Birth control or condoms do not involve killing a child, shedding the blood, but rather, just keep the sperm from ever fertilizing the egg. If the sperm never fertilizes the egg, there is never conception and thus, there is never a child to be murdered. I do not think there is anything wrong with birth control, condoms, etc., AS LONG AS the two involved are married, which you have stated you are.

The 69th Chapter of the Book of Enoch states various things that the fallen angels who descended upon Mount Hermon in the days of Jared taught to man during the corruption that occurred in the antediluvian world. Verse 12 states, "And the fifth was named Kasdeja, this is he who showed the children of men all the wicked smitings of spirits and demons, and the smitings of embryo in the womb that it may pass away, the smitings of the soul the bites of the serpent..."

We are told in Leviticus 17:11 that "the life of the flesh is in the blood," and that God has "given it to [us] on the altar to make atonement for [our] souls." In the occult, there is a lot of blood-letting, such as 1 Kings 18:28, which states that the prophets of Baal, desperate for their god to send fire down upon their altar in front of Isaiah, began to "cut themselves according to their custom with swords and lances until the blood gushed out of them."

This mocks the blood of Christ by which we receive forgiveness (Hebrews 9:22), and abortion is one of the biggest sacrifices to the forces of darkness in our society that is pushing the world into the rapidly approaching Great Tribulation. Pushing the world into a time "as it was in the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37), the return of the Antichrist, Azazel (Enoch 10; Revelation 9:11), after the Rapture when we; the body of Christ, the Restrainer; are "taken out of the way" (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8).

But, birth control is okay as there never is a child that comes that can be killed. I also would like to clarify that if the mother's life is in danger as a result of the pregnancy, I do NOT think it would be a satanic sacrifice. If the mother's life is in danger, it would not be to murder the child but rather to save the life of the mother and thus, would not be a sacrifice. But, done for any other reason than to save someone's life, it is murder, and thus, a sacrifice of a child, allowing demonic forces to manifest (i.e. the UFO phenomenon).

Thank you so much for this response! This is what I was looking for. I am fully aware of what Catholics believe and I was not asking for why Catholics believe what they do, if I had wanted an answer for that I would have posted in the Catholic section. Not to be rude but it does not line up with my beliefs and I simply just don't agree. I was asking for fellow Baptist's opinions on the issue and Biblical backings to their argument. I thank you Michael for understanding what I meant and taking the time to write back!

 

[dies-l]

Thank you so much for this response! This is what I was looking for. I am fully aware of what Catholics believe and I was not asking for why Catholics believe what they do, if I had wanted an answer for that I would have posted in the Catholic section. Not to be rude but it does not line up with my beliefs and I simply just don't agree. I was asking for fellow Baptist's opinions on the issue and Biblical backings to their argument. I thank you Michael for understanding what I meant and taking the time to write back!

In other words, you want people to agree with you and tell you that you are right. I'm sorry I can't do that. The pill often does cause abortion. If you take the pill and you are against early term abortion, you are either misinformed or inconsistent (if not outright hypocritical).

And this is the opinion of a fellow baptist explained with the assistance of factual information.

 

[*Army_Wife*]

In other words, you want people to agree with you and tell you that you are right. I'm sorry I can't do that. The pill often does cause abortion. If you take the pill and you are against early term abortion, you are either misinformed or inconsistent (if not outright hypocritical).

And this is the opinion of a fellow baptist explained with the assistance of factual information.

There is no need for you to be snarky or to have the last word. I don't find any truth in what you have to say. I'm sorry that bothers you so much...

 

[MichaelKelley]

In other words, you want people to agree with you and tell you that you are right. I'm sorry I can't do that. The pill often does cause abortion. If you take the pill and you are against early term abortion, you are either misinformed or inconsistent (if not outright hypocritical).

And this is the opinion of a fellow baptist explained with the assistance of factual information.

Your "opinion" doesn't matter, even if you are Baptist. I gave Scripture in my response and clearly explained the position. You didn't give any Scripture whatsoever, but just your "opinion."

Birth Control pills do not cause abortion, they just keep the sperm from fertilizing the egg. If the sperm never fertilizes the egg, there is not a baby to be killed.

Yes, sometimes birth control or condoms don't work, as anything man-made can malfunction, and the egg is fertilized, but it does NOT kill the baby if that does occur, but rather, a pregnancy occurs.

There are pills that will kill the baby, such as the "morning-after pill," but those are NOT birth control pills. They are taken AFTER sex IF the woman is not taking birth control in order to sacrifice the baby if the egg was fertilized.

You are very misinformed regarding abortion. Let me ask you, do you think the use of condoms between a married couple is murder of a child, even though there is never even a fertilized egg?

 

[*Army_Wife*]

Your "opinion" doesn't matter, even if you are Baptist. I gave Scripture in my response and clearly explained the position. You didn't give any Scripture whatsoever, but just your "opinion."

Birth Control pills do not cause abortion, they just keep the sperm from fertilizing the egg. If the sperm never fertilizes the egg, there is not a baby to be killed.

Yes, sometimes birth control or condoms don't work, as anything man-made can malfunction, and the egg is fertilized, but it does NOT kill the baby if that does occur, but rather, a pregnancy occurs.

There are pills that will kill the baby, such as the "morning-after pill," but those are NOT birth control pills. They are taken AFTER sex IF the woman is not taking birth control in order to sacrifice the baby if the egg was fertilized.

You are very misinformed regarding abortion. Let me ask you, do you think the use of condoms between a married couple is murder of a child, even though there is never even a fertilized egg?

Exactly

 

[dies-l]

There is no need for you to be snarky or to have the last word. I don't find any truth in what you have to say. I'm sorry that bothers you so much...

I just find it interesting that you start a thread asking for opinions, and then you get offended when people disagree with your opinion. You are welcome to disagree, but it is a FACT that one of the mechanisms of the pill to prevent implantation of a fertilized embryo, thus causing it it to die from malnutrition. How is this morally distinguishable from any other form of abortion?

 

[dies-l]

Your "opinion" doesn't matter, even if you are Baptist. I gave Scripture in my response and clearly explained the position. You didn't give any Scripture whatsoever, but just your "opinion."

Birth Control pills do not cause abortion, they just keep the sperm from fertilizing the egg. If the sperm never fertilizes the egg, there is not a baby to be killed.

Yes, sometimes birth control or condoms don't work, as anything man-made can malfunction, and the egg is fertilized, but it does NOT kill the baby if that does occur, but rather, a pregnancy occurs.

There are pills that will kill the baby, such as the "morning-after pill," but those are NOT birth control pills. They are taken AFTER sex IF the woman is not taking birth control in order to sacrifice the baby if the egg was fertilized.

You are very misinformed regarding abortion. Let me ask you, do you think the use of condoms between a married couple is murder of a child, even though there is never even a fertilized egg?

I am sorry, but you are wrong. The birth control pill can and does cause the death of a fertilized embryo. This is one of the two main mechanisms by which the pill prevents pregnancy. If you believe that it is okay to abort a fertilized embryo as long as it hasn't been implanted yet, then that is your prerogative. But, if you believe that the pill does not do such a thing, you are mistaken. And, yes I am talking about birth control pills (not just "morning after pills").

"Q. I have heard some people say the pill has an abortifacient capacity. What does this word mean, and is it really true anyway?

A. Before answering this question it is very important that we all have a correct understanding of the key biological terms related to pregnancy. The following definitions have been accept by major medical texts for decades.

'Conception' refers to the moment at which the sperm penetrates and fertilises the ovum to form a viable zygote. It does not refer to the process of implantation of the newly created human embryo, which is a separate event, occurring about 7-8 day’s after conception. A woman is pregnant because conception has occurred, not because implantation has occurred. This distinction is important.

At the precise and unique moment of conception, a woman is 'pregnant' with "a new individual ". This is an accurate and informed medical description. It is the same terminology used by Prof. John Dwyer, pre-eminent Australian AIDS expert and researcher, who has described the moment that the sperm enters the ovum as the creation of a "new and unique individual". Well known medical writer, Professor Derek Llewellyn-Jones, author of Everywoman, has also written that when the male genetic material from the sperm joins with the female genetic material in the ovum, " a new individual is formed".

To stop conception occurring, that is, to stop sperm and ovum joining, is contraception. Condoms, diaphragms, spermicides, vasectomy and tubal ligation are accurately described as methods of contraception. Obviously any drug or device used after conception has occurred cannot be termed a contraceptive.

The correct term to describe any interference with the pregnancy after conception has occurred is ‘abortifacient’. This is the precise biological description for any drug or device that acts to end a pregnancy once it has begun at conception.

You might be interested to know that many major medical dictionaries have definitions of ‘conception’, ‘pregnancy’ and ‘contraception’ that are the same as those listed above.

It is medically dishonest to break from these definitions. And yet, this is precisely what some scientists have recently started to do. They seek to define pregnancy as beginning with implantation, not fertilization. But as I mentioned ealier, implantation occurs 7-8 days after the new human person has come into existence. The pregnancy, and the new human person, are already many days old by the time implantation has occurred.

Therefore, what these scientists are trying to doing is get people to think that abortifacient drugs such as the pill are really just contraceptive drugs. Do you see the clever shift in definitions these scientists are trying to make? Redefine when a pregnancy and new human life begins, and you redefine the key characteristic of the drug – how it works!

Obviously many people object to abortifacient drugs because they can cause a loss of human life. Not so many people object to methods of contraception (condoms, diaphrams etc), because these methods prevent new human life being created. Hence, if scientists succeed in convincing people that human life begins after implantation, eventually most people will have no objection to the pill. They will have been tricked into believing that human life had not begun when the pill exerted its anti-implantation effect."

From: The Pill – Contraceptive or Abortifacient

 

[dies-l]

Your "opinion" doesn't matter, even if you are Baptist. I gave Scripture in my response and clearly explained the position. You didn't give any Scripture whatsoever, but just your "opinion."

I assume that we all believe that abortion is wrong. I understand that my arguments will not be compelling to someone who believes that abortion is okay. But, how exactly ought I use Scripture to prove the scientific fact that the pill causes abortion.

Birth Control pills do not cause abortion, they just keep the sperm from fertilizing the egg. If the sperm never fertilizes the egg, there is not a baby to be killed.

And, if that fails, the prevent implantation of the newly formed embryo, thus causing it to die from starvation.

Yes, sometimes birth control or condoms don't work, as anything man-made can malfunction, and the egg is fertilized, but it does NOT kill the baby if that does occur, but rather, a pregnancy occurs.

And, sometimes the pill works by causing a de facto abortion.

There are pills that will kill the baby, such as the "morning-after pill," but those are NOT birth control pills. They are taken AFTER sex IF the woman is not taking birth control in order to sacrifice the baby if the egg was fertilized.

You are very misinformed regarding abortion.

Um, no, you are misinformed about the pill and how it works.

Let me ask you, do you think the use of condoms between a married couple is murder of a child, even though there is never even a fertilized egg?

No. In fact, I even said earlier in this thread that I support the use of contraception if it doesn't cause abortion. Condoms don't abort young embryos. The pill sometimes does.

 

[PETE_]

My daughter got married May of last year and spent many hours researching this issue as she is very much opposed to abortion. She could find no doctor or pill that would guarantee that no fertilization could occur. So they decided to use the rhythm method.

It has a snag with newlyweds as it takes some discipline. My new grandson being evidence that they do not have that one down yet.

 

[Bella Vita]

My daughter got married May of last year and spent many hours researching this issue as she is very much opposed to abortion. She could find no doctor or pill that would guarantee that no fertilization could occur. So they decided to use the rhythm method.

It has a snag with newlyweds as it takes some discipline. My new grandson being evidence that they do not have that one down yet.

why don't they just use condoms?

 

[MichaelKelley]

I am sorry, but you are wrong. The birth control pill can and does cause the death of a fertilized embryo. This is one of the two main mechanisms by which the pill prevents pregnancy.

Either you didn't read that article you posted or just refuse to face the facts. The answer about the pill failing NEVER once mentions that if it fails, it will cause an abortion. Rather, it says EXACTLY what I've been saying, that it simply keeps the sperm and egg from joining...and if it fails, it does not have a "second mechanism," as you said, to prevent a pregnancy, she just becomes pregnant if it fails or she misses a day. It doesn't kill the baby, as there never is even an embryo, as there never is even a fertilized egg, just like contraceptives. Below is the question on it failing:

Q. O.K., if the pill is not quite as successful as promised, why does it fail?

A. One part of the answer to this question is some women forget to take a tablet each day. Missing a single tablet may be all that is needed for ovulation to occur. Even the drug companies agree that missing a single dose is significant. Ovulation may occur, which could lead to a diagnosed pregnancy. That is why the leaflet inside the pill packet recommends using something like a condom or diaphragm, even if you are only 12 hours late in taking your daily pill tablet. The pill manufacturers also suggest that a condom or diaphragm should be used for seven days because of the risk of ovulation and pregnancy.

Another reason some women have a diagnosed pregnancy whilst on the pill can be due to stomach illness such as vomiting or diarrhoea. These illnesses may prevent the full dose of the pill being absorbed into the woman’s body. The effect of less-than-complete drug absorption is the same as missing a dose – ovulation could occur. Again, the pill manufacturer recommends condom or diaphragm use for a full 7 days to prevent sperm and ovum joining.

A third reason for a diagnosed pregnancy whilst taking the pill could be because of a drug interaction with antibiotics (such as amoxycillin, co-trimoxazole, tetracycline, erythromycin and amphotericin), or large doses of vitamin C, or anti-epileptic medication, barbiturates and rifampicin (used for T.B.). The effect of the drug interaction is to reduce the quantity of hormones absorbed. Therefore ovulation might occur.​

No. In fact, I even said earlier in this thread that I support the use of contraception if it doesn't cause abortion. Condoms don't abort young embryos. The pill sometimes does.

Okay, so you should be okay with both condoms and birth control pills, as there is NOT any fertilized egg with either one unless something fails, which can happen with both. Yet, if it fails, the baby does NOT die unless there is a natural miscarriage.

 

[Bryne]

The pill failing means that the person got pregnant. If the pill causes an abortion, then that is not considered a failure.

The question about how the pill works addresses its abortive properties:

Q. How does the pill really work?


A. There are four ways the pill acts to stop sperm reaching an egg (ovum).

First, the hormones in the pill try to stop an ovum being released from your ovary each month. This is known as the suppression of ovulation. Research has shown that neither the progesterone-only pill nor the combined progesterone-oestrogen formulations always stop ovulation.


Second, all formulations of the pill cause changes to the cervical mucus that your body produces. The cervical mucus may become thicker and more difficult for sperm to fertilize an ovum.


Third, all formulations of the pill cause changes to the lining of the womb (properly known as the endometrium). Under the influence of the chemicals in the pill, the lining of the womb doesn’t grow to the proper thickness. You will notice that your periods are lighter when you are on the pill. This is because the lining of the womb has not developed properly. But this change also means that the womb is not in the right stage of development to allow a fertilized egg to attach properly (this attachment process is known as implantation). This action of the pill will be discussed again in this booklet.

Fourth, the pill causes changes to the movement of the Fallopian tubes. This effect may reduce the possibility of the ovum being fertilised.

It is the third way in which the pill works that is abortive. Fertilization occurs, but implantation is prevented.

I am afraid that you are the one who is not clear about the facts. The pill doesn't always work to prevent the sperm and egg from joining. sometimes they allow the sperm and the egg to join, but prevent the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterine wall. The following journal article discusses this:

Arch Fam Med -- Postfertilization Effects of Oral Contraceptives and Their Relationship to Informed Consent, February 2000, Larimore and Stanford 9 (2): 126

 

[dies-l]

Either you didn't read that article you posted or just refuse to face the facts. The answer about the pill failing NEVER once mentions that if it fails, it will cause an abortion. Rather, it says EXACTLY what I've been saying, that it simply keeps the sperm and egg from joining...and if it fails, it does not have a "second mechanism," as you said, to prevent a pregnancy, she just becomes pregnant if it fails or she misses a day. It doesn't kill the baby, as there never is even an embryo, as there never is even a fertilized egg, just like contraceptives. Below is the question on it failing:

Q. O.K., if the pill is not quite as successful as promised, why does it fail?

A. One part of the answer to this question is some women forget to take a tablet each day. Missing a single tablet may be all that is needed for ovulation to occur. Even the drug companies agree that missing a single dose is significant. Ovulation may occur, which could lead to a diagnosed pregnancy. That is why the leaflet inside the pill packet recommends using something like a condom or diaphragm, even if you are only 12 hours late in taking your daily pill tablet. The pill manufacturers also suggest that a condom or diaphragm should be used for seven days because of the risk of ovulation and pregnancy.

Another reason some women have a diagnosed pregnancy whilst on the pill can be due to stomach illness such as vomiting or diarrhoea. These illnesses may prevent the full dose of the pill being absorbed into the woman’s body. The effect of less-than-complete drug absorption is the same as missing a dose – ovulation could occur. Again, the pill manufacturer recommends condom or diaphragm use for a full 7 days to prevent sperm and ovum joining.

A third reason for a diagnosed pregnancy whilst taking the pill could be because of a drug interaction with antibiotics (such as amoxycillin, co-trimoxazole, tetracycline, erythromycin and amphotericin), or large doses of vitamin C, or anti-epileptic medication, barbiturates and rifampicin (used for T.B.). The effect of the drug interaction is to reduce the quantity of hormones absorbed. Therefore ovulation might occur.​

Okay, so you should be okay with both condoms and birth control pills, as there is NOT any fertilized egg with either one unless something fails, which can happen with both. Yet, if it fails, the baby does NOT die unless there is a natural miscarriage.

I'm sorry. You are incorrect. You are now bending over backwards to ignore facts that don't support your position. Nothing anyone says is going to change your mind when you are so ready to disregard the facts.

 

[dliz]

Hi there! I also belong to a medical profession. I dont think there's something wrong with using contraceptives. Family planning should be implemented and practiced to avoid unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases. But there's a down side in using contraceptives because there's a huge possibility that people will tend to abuse the use of it.

I myself belong to a big family. I have 6 siblings and all of us are planned. My parents wanted to have 7 kids. My parents definitely see children as a blessing, not a hardship. I know it has been hard on my parents, and they've made many sacrifices for us. I cant imagine my life without my sisters.I think that if I had fewer siblings, life wouldn’t be as much fun as it is.

The problem with oral contraceptives are the adverse effects and it really difficult to find an effective brand. And you ought to take it everyday single day and if ever missed a single dose you have to start all over again. There are pills that prevent conception and others that basically abort conception,like morning after pills.

Patch/Injectables- at least once every 3 months so its easier to remember but again the side effects are your worst enemy. Anything that tampers with hormones has the tendency to have side effects.

Vasectomy/Tubal Ligation- I think it's okay if the couple already have decided to end bearing children. Tubal Ligation is a must for mothers who had underwent 3 times repeat CS because it is very dangerous for the mother if she bears another one. For vasectomy, you need to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] 25-30(not really sure) times before engaging any form of sex and you need to wait a certain period of time in order to determine whether you are fully sterile or not. The advantage of using this method is that it's hassle free and you wont have to worry about unwanted pregnancies.

IUD- My sister is an IUD baby. My mom got pregnant using this method. My father was scared that my sister might get aborted, he was the one who removed the IUD.

Calendar Method- you need to have regular menses in order to use this .

Withdrawal- It's very risky because there is always a precum.

ABORTION- How would you feel to be considered a murderer in God's eyes? How would you feel if you own mother tried to to kill you when you were in her womb?Where would you be if your mother had done this to you? Just think about it, if you do abort now. Have you ever thought that you might not be given a chance to have another baby in the near future, you might forever regret that decision.

The best way to avoid unwanted pregnancies is ABSTINENCE.

 

[Bella Vita]

I just went to the doctor to get BC 2 weeks ago I asked every question I could think of and read all the information they gave me on all the different methods. There is no way the pill can terminate a physical pregnancy it is impossible if you do get pregnant and are on the pill it will not hurt the baby in any way. Trust me asked all of this lol you are fine to take the pill and be relaxed that if you do get pregnant you will not hurt or abort the baby. It is a medical fact and anyone here who tells you otherwise id dead wrong. Now can it cause other health issues yes every women reacts to medication differently our bodies are all different. Good Luck =]