Birth Control

[Antigone]

so? I'm in central... GMT + 6, I think. and that's all that matters.

You live in central Russia?!

 

[Rhamiel]

didn't i say those who are in rebellion? what constitutes Mortal sin? Weakness does not.

out right claiming that the Church teaches this but i can disregard it is not weakness, it is rebellion.

and these ppl are going to communion and that is pretty effed up.

and you need to learn the difference between speaking in a generalcality and speaking about specific situations.

ok, you did say rebellion, but I think some people were assuming that any act of ABC is an act of rebellion, sometimes it could just be our weak human nature that leads to sin, I know it, you know it, but sometimes it is a good thing to articulate it so that other people will be on the same page as us.

Now I think if you do not accept ABC as a sin, then you are placing yourself above the Church and I think that would be counted as an act of open rebellion.

 

[benedictaoo]

You live in central Russia?!

Obama's our president- so yeah. may as well.

 

[benedictaoo]

ok, you did say rebellion, but I think some people were assuming that any act of ABC is an act of rebellion, sometimes it could just be our weak human nature that leads to sin, I know it, you know it, but sometimes it is a good thing to articulate it so that other people will be on the same page as us.

Now I think if you do not accept ABC as a sin, then you are placing yourself above the Church and I think that would be counted as an act of open rebellion.

So if a person knows it's a sin and immoral and always evil but is too weak to obey, then they are not committing a Mortal sin IYO?

 

[Antigone]

Obama's our president- so yeah. may as well.

Dunno about that, central Russia is known for its lawlessnessnessness. You don't need that many laws when your population density is practically zero. Who are you going to sue? The moose that ate all the moss in your front yard?

Besides, Russians hate teh gays and with Putin & co at the helm, they're pretty right wing.

 

[benedictaoo]

Dunno about that, central Russia is known for its lawlessnessnessness. You don't need that many laws when your population density is practically zero. Who are you going to sue? The moose that ate all the moss in your front yard?

Besides, Russians hate teh gays and with Putin & co at the helm, they're pretty right wing.

I was referring to communist Russia once upon at time.

 

[Antigone]

I was referring to communist Russia once upon at time.

Mmmmyeah, the Soviet Union is pretty much gone. They even unsocketed the Dherzinsky statue a while ago.
They still hate teh gays, though.

 

[Rhamiel]

So if a person knows it's a sin and immoral and always evil but is too weak to obey, then they are not committing a Mortal sin IYO?

I really do not know, I have heard differant things from differant people and I really do not knw

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

So if a person knows it's a sin and immoral and always evil but is too weak to obey, then they are not committing a Mortal sin IYO?

That is exactly what the Church teaches. They need to have full freedom (some places called 'complete consent' others referred to as 'deliberate consent')...if they don't it's not mortal sin.

In confession, in order to receive absolution--they must have firm purpose of amendment. If they know it's wrong, they must truly mean to change their lives in that moment--but truly desiring and enacting change--honestly desiring change when confessing and desiring change in a sustained and ongoing way are two different things. That's why we go to confession---to obtain the grace to eventually overcome habitual sin.

Here is a useful tidbit from the CCC

2352 To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

 

[benedictaoo]

I have to disagree with you Shannon. Are you shocked?

"it's hard" "I'm weak..." are not excuses. you are giving us pain ole excuses and NOT "limited freedom".

Like the folks who walked away from Jesus.. they thought it was "hard..." "who could take it?" and Christ did not give them a pass.

Our personal failings , a weak moral character is not a pass.

You use limited freedom as a crutch and you use it waaaay to much and shame, shame for confusing ppl on the teaching of the Church. making everyone think they have a loop hole.

Why does the Church even have these teachings if they are so subjective?

Come on...

It is the teaching of the Church that if we have to space children, we are not free to use ABC to do it.

Period. bottom line. end of the story.

Now if folks actully have very special circumstances and situations, then they can discern it and talk it out with a (here's the key) a GOOD, HOLY, FAITHFUL preist. It's absolutely irresponsible to go round on a message board and lead ppl to think it's a teaching but all you need is an excuse from your doctor as if it's gym class you are trying to get out of.

 

[benedictaoo]

I really do not know, I have heard differant things from differant people and I really do not knw

What a crime and a shame.

Leaving the different things from different ppl out of it, including me, what does the Church teach?

 

[JacksLadder]

I know I could never give up birth control (well I don't take it but my wife dose) so I guess this is the nail in the coffin on this board for me

Thanks for all of the replies I would rather not attend than be like my relatives.

 

[benedictaoo]

Have you tried to see the reasons why it's a sin? and it does take a tremendous amount of faith and trust in the Lord to make the choice. It's not easy for anyone.

It's like the rich young ruler, he did not want to give up his wealth to follow Jesus either.

 

[JCFantasy23]

They are also very much excommunicated.

Not to their knowledge anyway, they are still active practicing Catholics.

you got that right. Wow... they decided. wow...

Yes, they did. They have several children and her body handles pregnancy quite badly. The doctors worked with them and said she would not likely handle another pregnancy and live. They did make the choice though, as was the point of this thread, and still consider themselves to be Catholic. I'm not here to debate their decision, but to answer the OP's question.

 

[JacksLadder]

Have you tried to see the reasons why it's a sin?

Yes and I applaud them,I read a bit of the Theology of the Body the other day. They are well thought out. All I know is that I have barley enough energy and money for the one child I have. So unless I am going to remain celibate in my marriage I cannot give it up.

 

[benedictaoo]

Not to their knowledge anyway.



Yes, they did. They have several children and her body handles pregnancy quite badly. The doctors worked with them and said she would not likely handle another pregnancy and live. They did make the choice though, as was the point of this thread, and still consider themselves to be Catholic.

Well guess what? Those are not sufficient reasons and before you 'go there', I have 6 myself, had c sections for them all and the only normal delivery I had it came real close to killing me (not exaggerating) and I'm 42 now, have an autistic kid, and it is absolutely recommended i do not get pregnant again.

I'm not free to choice ABC in spite of what anyone says.

Now whether or not this couple has the option to use NFP and not ABC is not up for me to discern but to just decided that they will use ABC's arbitrarily is a problem, if that is what they did.

But that's not the bad part... what is horrific is they (and you) have spread this error to other Catholics bringing scandal to the Church.

You just do not go around undermining the teachings of the Church!

and I'm just really sad that no one sees it.

 

[benedictaoo]

Yes and I applaud them,I read a bit of the Theology of the Body the other day. They are well thought out. All I know is that I have barley enough energy and money for the one child I have. So unless I am going to remain celibate in my marriage I cannot give it up.

Trust. It's a call to live on trust.

 

[JacksLadder]

Trust. It's a call to live on trust.

Unfortunately I don't trust.... which is why I am a seeker.

 

[benedictaoo]

Unfortunately I don't trust.... which is why I am a seeker.

One day you may though. It's a gift from God. if this is what he wants from you, it'll happen so just remain open to the possibility.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

I have to disagree with you Shannon. Are you shocked?

"it's hard" "I'm weak..." are not excuses. you are giving us pain ole excuses and NOT "limited freedom".

Like the folks who walked away from Jesus.. they thought it was "hard..." "who could take it?" and Christ did not give them a pass.

Our personal failings , a weak moral character is not a pass.

You use limited freedom as a crutch and you use it waaaay to much and shame, shame for confusing ppl on the teaching of the Church. making everyone think they have a loop hole.

Why does the Church even have these teachings if they are so subjective?

Come on...

It is the teaching of the Church that if we have to space children, we are not free to use ABC to do it.

Period. bottom line. end of the story.

Now if folks actully have very special circumstances and situations, then they can discern it and talk it out with a (here's the key) a GOOD, HOLY, FAITHFUL preist. It's absolutely irresponsible to go round on a message board and lead ppl to think it's a teaching but all you need is an excuse from your doctor as if it's gym class you are trying to get out of.

Luckily for us all you are not a priest, and so not anyone's confessor...so your opinion really means nothing except in regards to your own relationship with Christ.

For the rest of us, here's what the Catechism says to guide pastoral action:

2352 To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

And there's no penalty of excommunication attached to being sterilised or using birth control. I would challenge someone to find such a formal penaltyabywhere in cabobn law. That doesn't mean those things aren't sinful, but not all sin carries the penalty of excommunication.

The thing is--we can all bicker all day for seven Sundays---questions about specific circumstances are honestly and truly no one's business except the family's and their priest. If you are struggling in this area, then some very heart to heart talks with a trusted priest are in order.