Birth Control

[MrsJoy]

Do you believe the use of contraception is a sin? No? Okay, you are not an "extremely conservative believer".

says you.
goodness...i did think there was still a God in heaven

 

[MrsJoy]

Most people who think they are okay don't think so.



That doesn't help your case.

and low personal blows help yours???
goodness...

 

[MrsJoy]

Actually, that was one of St. Augustine's arguments.

The Church's stance is not that procreation is the sole purpose for sex, just that it cannot be seperated from that purpose.

an idea not supported by correctly dividing the Word of Truth

 

[MrsJoy]

OK, here we go.


NOW, since you're so sure there are actually Scriptures that support your doctrine about birth control being evil, let's hear 'em. There wasn't even one in that mess. (Thanks for wasting my time, btw.) And if you're going to quote a website, you might want to find a better one than that.

I second that idea

 

[MrsJoy]

How long has birth control been around anyway?
Didn't women improvise in the "old days"?

thousands of years.
google it, you will be amazed.
ancient egyptian woman used some ...things i'de ...never...dream of

 

[MrsJoy]

I'm tired of rebuttal because I am constantly getting attacked for what I stand up for, so that is my answer and it's not worth arguing and stop being so rude

i think the idea is...actually stand up for it...with God's Word-the ONLY truth there is.

 

[MrsJoy]

Agreed. No one should ever have unprotected sex with someone they don't know the results of for 6 months.

My point, however, was I hated kids, but once I fell in love and got married, I risked my life because I wanted his child.
Thats a normal response.

a normal response for you.
a normal response for many women (myself included-although i never hated kids).
but not necessarily "the" normal response.

 

[MrsJoy]

Even if the bible flat out and boldly stated "Contraception is a sin" the pro-contraception crowd would argue that it refers to the method of the time and modern day contraception is okay because it's safer or better. With this as with any other sin, unless God convicts the sinner to repentance, it will not happen. I personally believe that the decision to use contraception by a Christian is given little if any prayer. The world is demanding small families, and the world is getting what it wants.

incorrect.
most christians have a heart for God and obeying His Word.
if it flat out said "this is a sin, obey me" it would be a whole different situation.
again, you are referring to something as sin that has not been shown to be so.
nice that you think that.
I believe that every detail of our lives deserves a great deal of prayer.
I don't believe that the majority of christians look at the world and then decide what we are going to do.
it may influence...but not dictate as you are picturing here.

 

[MrsJoy]

Quote:
Why are people impressed that Jay Leno owns 20 motorcycles, but disgusted that some religious families choose to have 10 children?
Let's not finesse the response. We all know why. A world that has lost its innocence has trouble appreciating beings who are innocent. A world that has become selfish has soured to the idea of leading a life of selflessness. A world that has become grossly materialistic is turned off to the idea of more dependents who consume resources. And a world that mistakenly believes that freedom means a lack of responsibility is opposed to the idea of needy creatures who "tie you down."

and why do so many christians assume that limiting one's family is out of selfish intentions.
why do so many christians assume that they know everyone's heart??
why do they assume it has to do with material belongings and wanting to stockpile "things"?
why do they assume it has to do with shirking responsibility.
i know this is FAR from the truth in MANY many many cases.
and to assume such horrible things is not a sound or wise idea

 

[MrsJoy]

"n truth, all men know that they who are under the power of this disease [the sin of covetousness] are wearied even of their father’s old age [wishing him to die so they can inherit]; and that which is sweet, and universally desirable, the having of children, they esteem grievous and unwelcome. Many at least with this view have even paid money to be childless, and have mutilated nature, not only killing the newborn, but even acting to prevent their beginning to live"
-St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Matthew 28:5 [A.D. 391]

yet again,
assuming one's motives for using BC
how sickening

 

[MrsJoy]

uhmm posts #253,254, 255 while interesting aren't commands from God.
tulc(but thanks for posting them!)

thank you!

 

[MrsJoy]

It does, you just don't acknowledge it.

For 1900+ years all Christians believed that this is what the Bible said, and so did the Jews.

just b/c something was believed for a long period of time does not make it right.
and no, it is not even hinted at when one rightly divides the Word of truth.
all you have presented are twisted scriptures.

--------------

You guys might as well be honest with yourselves: It is inconvenient, expensive and time consuming to have children, and you would rather have the time and money to yourself. It doesn't matter what the Bible says, because to you, the only things the Bible says is sin are the things that don't inconvenience you to greatly.

I think that I am going to be ill

time and $
inconvient???
judgemental?
YES
assuming?
YES
wrong in a LOT of cases
YES
What is in God's Word matters a great deal to me, and if it indeed spoke against such things, I would follow His commands.
however, I do not see the good in following man-made rules derived from perverting God's Word.
and to pass judgement on your brothers and sisters and say that they would down right disobey even if what you want to be there were clearly there is a slipperly slope to climb.
the Bible inconveniences me greatly every single day that I breath.
but you know what? that is ok, but it is God's Word.
take care in following such a line of thought and word.
great care indeed.

 

[MrsJoy]

For just about the same amount of time Christians also believed slavery was okay, so what does that mean.

oh oh *raises hand*
that slavery is ok!!!
am i right????

 

[MrsJoy]

Find me an official Church document endorcing the practice of slavery.

The form of ethnically based, dehumanizing slavery that was became popular in western Europe and the Americas was imported from Islam, was foriegn to the early Church, and was absent in the Orthodox world.

and was greatly accepted and excused by the church for hundreds of years.
are you REALLY going to try to argue something that is such a huge part of history and fact?

 

[MrsJoy]

Your point is not made. Slavery was never supported by the Church. Slavery in ancient times was much different than what slavery came to be in more recent times. Support for slavery, esp. in its later incarnation, was something generated in later times by only a subset of Christianity. Either way it is a stupid argument, since it falls under neither of the catagories of being universally held or an ancient doctrine.

yes.
disregard logic because it does not help your argument.

 

[MrsJoy]

This is always the main arguement:

"Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his sperm on the ground."

Of course they don't realize that God killed Onan not for practicing contraception, but because of his outright refusal to perform his duty to his brother's wife.

If this had been his own wife, the outcome would have been much different.

Listen to the way it's worded:

"But Onan knew the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother's wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother.

not to mention that the actual reason is given "because he was evil in God's sight..."

 

[MrsJoy]

I'm SO glad I didn't live in OT days.

lol
you and me both
of course, for this to apply...we'de have to be jewish...

 

[MrsJoy]

No.

1.) It is only a sin to abstain if one spouse does not wish to.

incorrect.
Scripture forbids it.
1 Cor 7: 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
not if you both consent period.
for the purpose of prayer.
that is the only example given.
beyond that, we are told "do not deprive".

2.) Trust in God. He will not give you more than you can handle; ie, either you won't get pregnant or He will provide.

trust in God and do your part.
i trust in God, therefore we will not work (or in our case dh will not work) b/c He will take care of us.
i trust in God, therefore I will not buy groceries -God will provide!
I trust in God therefore I will not buy clothing-God will provide!!!

 

[MrsJoy]

Like who? Cannot afford, as in all the kids do not get their own cell phone, or as in the poor kids have to share a room?



Explain what away? His sin was two fold. If it was just because he would not give his brother a heir, then Judah would have suffered the same fate.

are you serious?
you are going to try to say that poverty, including that of large familes does not excist.
come now.

and judah was not in need of taking care of his brothers wife.
his sin was well, first of all sleeping with his dauther in law, and not giving her is other son as a husband.

and God choose to kill onan b/c he was evil in God's eyes.
God's call.
not a universal law.

 

[MrsJoy]

I have heard of it, but it isn't in the bible.

it's actually ben franklin