Birth Control

[MrsJoy]

Gen 1:28,

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
context:
the begining of the world.
there were only two people.
God's intent? to fill the earth with mankind.
this is not a command given to everyone.
it was a command given to adam and eve.

9:1,7;

1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.
7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."
context:
After the flood. why? because God had just wiped out the majority of the population, His intent was still the same as at the begining of creation.
this command is given to noah and his sons.
not everyone.
it was another specific command at a specific time for a specific purpose.
nowhere is this pointed out to be a universal command to all mankind.
the world is now well populated.
we do not have need to do so again.

35:11

11 And God said to him, "I am God Almighty ; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body.
context?
9 After Jacob returned from Paddan Aram, God appeared to him again and blessed him. 10 God said to him, "Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel. " So he named him Israel.
12 The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you." 13 Then God went up from him at the place where he had talked with him
to say that these verses apply is to say that we too, everyone who are saved are currently a part of this specific promise given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
it is in connection with God promising to make a great nation out of him.
again, not a command to all man kind.

- from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful ("fertile") and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God's plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.

this is not shown in scripture.
it is a human idea ascribed to these verses.
when examined in context these verses do not say such at all.

 

[MrsJoy]

Gen. 28:3 - Isaac's prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God.

3 May God Almighty bless you and make you fruitful and increase your numbers until you become a community of peoples.
hmmm...a blessing (not a command mind you) of a father upon a son.
and not only such, but one to only this son (not all of mankind), one that was part of the plan of creating the nation of Israel.
by the way, no one has said that children are not a blessing.
only that we are not commanded to not use anything , including wisdom.

Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his sperm on the ground.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his sperm on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.
context?
fulfilling a command from God to carry on his brothers line.
the reason he did not sleep with her is given in the very scripture itself -he knew that the offspring would not be his"
if this was not the reason, why is it given????

Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed.

11 Judah then said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, "Live as a widow in your father's house until my son Shelah grows up." For he thought, "He may die too, just like his brothers." So Tamar went to live in her father's house.
12 After a long time Judah's wife, the daughter of Shua, died. When Judah had recovered from his grief, he went up to Timnah, to the men who were shearing his sheep, and his friend Hirah the Adullamite went with him.
13 When Tamar was told, "Your father-in-law is on his way to Timnah to shear his sheep," 14 she took off her widow's clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife.
15 When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. 16 Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, "Come now, let me sleep with you."
"And what will you give me to sleep with you?" she asked.
17 "I'll send you a young goat from my flock," he said.
"Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it?" she asked.
18 He said, "What pledge should I give you?"
"Your seal and its cord, and the staff in your hand," she answered. So he gave them to her and slept with her, and she became pregnant by him. 19 After she left, she took off her veil and put on her widow's clothes again.
20 Meanwhile Judah sent the young goat by his friend the Adullamite in order to get his pledge back from the woman, but he did not find her. 21 He asked the men who lived there, "Where is the shrine prostitute who was beside the road at Enaim?"
"There hasn't been any shrine prostitute here," they said.
22 So he went back to Judah and said, "I didn't find her. Besides, the men who lived there said, 'There hasn't been any shrine prostitute here.' "
23 Then Judah said, "Let her keep what she has, or we will become a laughingstock. After all, I did send her this young goat, but you didn't find her."
24 About three months later Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant."
Judah said, "Bring her out and have her burned to death!"
25 As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. "I am pregnant by the man who owns these," she said. And she added, "See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are."
26 Judah recognized them and said, "She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn't give her to my son Shelah." And he did not sleep with her again.
~sleeping with his daughter-in-law and not giving her his son makes him not willing to carry out HIS personal duty to carry on HIS brothers family?
also...is what happened to onan (punishment) a universal punishment, or what God chose to use at the time?
trying to stretch God's Word does not help any argument.

 

[MrsJoy]

Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed. [/quote]
7 But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death.
10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also
again God's Word clearly tells WHY He did what HE did.
it wasn't the law, but God decided that he was too wicked to live. it does not say "he wasted his seed and therefore God struck him dead."

Gen. 38:9 - also, the author's usage of the graphic word "seed," which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan's death.

9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his sperm on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother.
it clearly states the "why".
"why" add to God's Word???

Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from God, and married couples must always be open to God's plan for new life with every act of marital intimacy.

12 If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. 13 He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land—your grain, new wine and oil—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. 14 You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young.
this was a promise to the israel of that time of blessing.
yes HE promised to make them fruitful.
no, it does not command them to be fruitful.
of course children are a blessing.
no one has said otherwise.
nor does it say that married couples must never use bc as you have just said.
no scripture does.

Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error).

22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
These are NOT verses about wasting seed!!
NOWHERE does it say such!
it gives the exact reason "because such is a perversion"!
we are not to defile ourselves in such a way. It is detestable because it goes against God's intent and creation. He made the woman for the man, not man for man or woman for beast.
It is speaking directly to perversions that were being practiced at that time by the nations that they were going to be living among, and God tells them not to do these things and defile the land which He is about to give them.
again, God was very specific when HE gave all of these directives, why would He leave something, anything out? (such as "because to do such is wasting seed).

24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. God reveals that deliberate sterilization and any other methods which prevent conception are intrinsically evil.

17 "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God.
20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.
the point of this was NOT "the man with damaged parts is an abomination to me"!!
READ THE CONTEXT
nothing but the perfect was allowed in God's presence.
No one but the perfect were allowed to make offerings to Him.
Nothing but the perfect was to be offered.
16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God.
18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed;
19 no man with a crippled foot or hand,

so, God is also displeased with people who are naturaly born with any defect???
no, but ministering before the Lord required perfection.
It was a picture of Him as being Holy and perfect.
how does being born with damaged parts equate God being displeased with sterilization???
also, if you do not believe that this is speaking of something one was born with , then they were damaging their testicles in order to become sterile?
no.
and the context is also plain.
you must be perfect to stand before the Lord
that was the context.
that was the reasoning.
that was the application.

 

[MrsJoy]

Deut. 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot enter the assembly. Contraception is objectively sinful and contrary, not only to God's Revelation, but the moral and natural law.

1 “He who is emasculated by crushing or mutilation shall not enter the assembly of the LORD.
This is speaking of castration.
removal of said part. (nothing about testicles by the way)
i do not believe that anyone removes said part in order to not have children.
removal of a part to using bc is a HUGE leap.
it is not natural to dress, and yet we do so.
it is not natural to cut ones hair;
to go and see a doctor when one is sick.
it is natural to not wipe one's nose, or clean one's ears.

Deut. 25:11-12 - there is punishment for potential damage to the testicles, for such damage puts new life at risk. It, of course, follows that vasectomies, which are done with willful consent, are gravely contrary to the natural law.

11 “If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the genitals, 12 then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her.
this is a specific law about a woman injuring a man in a particular way.
she hurts him, the part that hurt him was removed.
it was not his CHOICE to be hurt.
when one has a vesectomy , it is not only by choice, it is NOT nearly the same as having one's parts abused in a fight.
yet another huge leap.
this does not say "whenever anyone does anything to ones parts, they are an abomination."
a specific law about a specific subject.
hurting somone.
not even doing it yourself.
hmmm.

1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children. When married couples contracept, they are declaring "not your will God, but my will be done."

5 All these were the sons of Heman the king’s seer in the words of God, to exalt his horn. For God gave Heman fourteen sons and three daughters.
all that this declares is that this man had many children.
not a command.
not a directive.
facts.
it does not even say how many wives he had
this passage does not even say "he was blessed with many" just, he had them.
and for a man to declare that others are going against God's personal will for their lives b/c they choose to use bc is unscriptural condemnation.
we are to judge righteous judgement.
and when something is not addressed in scripture (not truly, not when context is looked at) we cannot decide what is right for them, nor what God's will for them is.
God is Soverign. He will allow to happen what HE wills.
this may mean children regardless of bc (it happens A LOT). It may mean changing someone's mind or conviction.
but, that is not for any man to say, but only God alone.

Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. Married couples must always be open to God's precious gift of life. Contraception, which shows a disregard for human life, has lead to the great evils of abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.

3 Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD,
The fruit of the womb is a reward.
4 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior,
So are the children of one’s youth.
5 Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them;
They shall not be ashamed,
But shall speak with their enemies in the gate.
I have not seen anyone in this thread argue that children are not a blessing and a gift from God.
They are.
That still does not mean that God has commanded us to have however many may come along, doing nothing.
Some may be called to such, but it is not a command.
And the leap from bc to Abortion and euthanasia, and infanticide is HUGE.
just b/c one chooses to use a modern and scientific tool does not mean that they will also kill.
that is a HORRIBLE assumption.
and, by the way, a quiver would hold 4 or 5 arrows.

Hosea 9:11; Jer. 18:21 - God punishes Israel by preventing pregnancy. Contraception is a curse, and married couples who use contraception are putting themselves under the same curse.

11 As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird—
No birth, no pregnancy, and no conception!
21 Therefore deliver up their children to the famine,
And pour out their blood
By the force of the sword;
Let their wives become widows
And bereaved of their children.
Let their men be put to death,
Their young men be slain
By the sword in battle.
God was speaking a specific judgement upon His people for their in and disobedience.
why was barreness such a bad punishment?
b/c, in that culture (not because it was proclaimed to be a sin) it was seen as a bad thing. the woman must be in sin and there was no one to carry out the line.
it does not say they were in sin BECAUSE They were barren, it said they were barren BECAUSE they were in sin.
if God were speaking against bc, it would have been the other way around.
he does not say here "do not concieve and you are in sin and then will have this curse upon you" as would have to be the case for what you are saying to logically be true.

Mal. 2:14 - marriage is not a contract (which is a mere exchange of property or services). It is a covenant, which means a supernatural exchange of persons. Just as God is three in one, so are a husband and wife, who become one flesh and bring forth new life, three in one. Marital love is a reflection of the Blessed Trinity.

14 Yet you say, “For what reason?”
Because the LORD has been witness
Between you and the wife of your youth,
With whom you have dealt treacherously;
Yet she is your companion
And your wife by covenant.
the trinity is not even mentioned here.
true marriage is not even mentioned here if you want to get technical.
God is speaking against His people for being unfaithful to him. He was using a picture that they could relate to.
it does not say "bear children and be like me".
it does not say "bear children and be three in one as I and the Son and the Father are."
in fact, such a thing cannot be found anywhere in Scripture.

Mal. 2:15 - What does God desire? Godly offspring. What is contraception? A deliberate act against God's will. With contraception, a couple declares, "God may want an eternal being created with our union, but we say no." Contraception is a grave act of selfishness.

15 But did He not make them one,
Having a remnant of the Spirit?
And why one?
He seeks godly offspring.
Therefore take heed to your spirit,
And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.
this is a continuing of the picture of Israels unfaithfulness to GOD.
Godly offspring is speaking of children who obey Him.
since this is a metephor...how could God and isreal ...fill in the blanks.
the deliberate act here was simply this: disobeying God's direct commands and following after the nations that were around them and who they were supposed to have driven out.
this is not speaking of earthly human marriage.
this is not addressing bc.
it is addressing the relationship that God had with Israel and how HE desired obedience from them.

Matt. 19:5-6 - Jesus said a husband and wife shall become one. They are no longer two, but one, just as God is three persons, yet one. The expression of authentic marital love reintegrates our bodies and souls to God, and restores us to our original virginal state (perfect integration of body and soul) before God.

and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
um, this does not say anything about us being perfect before God because we are married.
I'm pretty sure that that is why Christ had to come and die.
And, how is this connected with the use of bc?
are you suggesting that b/c one uses such you are not one, not united in the same way?
how absurd (and unbiblical).

Matt. 19:6; Eph. 5:31 - contraception prevents God's ability to "join" together. Just as Christ's love for the Church is selfless and sacrificial, and a husband and wife reflect this union, so a husband and wife's love for each other must also be selfless and sacrificial. This means being open to new life.

6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
Tell me , where in here, or anywhere in God's Word does it imply or outright say that anything can prevent this from happening?
where does it state this?
The picture of Christ and the church is indeed sacrificial.
"and gives Himself for the church".
the husbands are to give themselves for their wives in the same way.
again, nothing about preventing anything.
nothing about anything being about to keep this union from becoming truly one.
saying such is adding to God's Word.
and to say that we as humans can "keep God" from perfectly joining us together is saying that we are bigger, stronger and more powerful than Him.

 

[MrsJoy]

Acts 5:1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira were slain because they withheld part of a gift. Fertility is a gift from God and cannot be withheld.

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.
7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?”
She said, “Yes, for so much.”
9 Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. 11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.

They were not killed because they held part of their gift back!!!
Scripture CLEARLY says:
"How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord?"
they were killed NOT when they brought in their gift, but when they lied about it.
otherwise, they would have been struck dead when they first entered the room NOT when Peter questioned them.
the sin their was lying, not not fully giving.

Rom.1:26-27 - sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love, or the love is a lie. The unitive and procreative elements of marital love can never be divided, or the marital love is also divided, and God is left out of the marriage.

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
this passage does not say "they wasted their seed and that is why they were sinful".
it says they knew God and rejected him
THEREFORE God gave them over to perversions.
Rejecting God was the sin.
this passage does not even address marital love, it is not the subject.
read the full context.
there is a reason for it.

 

[MrsJoy]

1 Cor. 6:19-20 - the body is the temple of the Holy

Spirit; thus, we must glorify God in our bodies by being open to His will.

18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.
This passage is very clearly dealing with sexual immorality.
yes, we are to glorify God, by doing things by His pattern (only when we are married).
nothing in this passage addresses preventing pregnancy.

Gal. 6:7-8 - God is not mocked for what a man sows. If to the flesh, corruption. If to the Spirit, eternal life.

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life
true, but it has not been shown that using bc is corrupt or sinful.
simply something that you believe to be so.
therefore, using such is not sowing to the flesh.
sleeping around would be.
cheating on one's spouse would be.
but using bc is not.

Eph. 5:25 - Paul instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This love is a lie because it is self-centered, and not self-giving and life-giving.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish
where does it say "by giving all his body and holding nothing back???
it says that he will give himself for her and the reasons are clear ~that he might sanctify and cleanse her
~that he might present her perfect, without spot or wrinkle
~that she should be holy and without blemish.
not to mention that the idea that bc is holding something back is a personal opinion, not the Word of God.
Also, choosing to wait to have children is not inheritly self-centered.
Many times it is just the opposit.
that this is your opinion is fine.
but stating such as fact is harsh and judgemental.

 

[MrsJoy]

Eph. 5:29-31; Phil. 3:2 - mutilating the flesh (e.g., surgery to prevent conception) is gravely sinful. Many Protestant churches reject this most basic moral truth.

29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

nowhere does scripture say that "mutilating" (and by the way surgery is not mutilating. mutilating by deffinition is inexact and careless, done to harm) is sinful.
this ephesians passage is saying that we love ourselves and take care of our own bodies -i.e. we eat, we do things that make it feel good.

2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
do you know what this verse really means???
paul was using a picture that his hearers would understand.
he was speaking of false prophets.
specifically, false prophets among the Jews. they claimed to know the truth, but distorted it. Paul used the picture of "false circumcision" to show them to be false.
this is not a verse against maiming oneself, or being aware of those who do so. it is a verse about those who claim as truth a false gospel.

1 Tim. 2:15 - childbearing is considered a "work" through which women may be saved by God's grace.

Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control
context.
the verses above it speak of how sin came into the world through eve.
it is speaking of all womankind.
no work can save a person, only grace alone.
Eph 2:8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
therefore that is not of which this verse speaks, for scripture never speaks against or contridicts itself.

Deut. 22:13-21 – these vers15 .es also show that God condemns pre-marital intercourse. The living expression of God’s creative love is reserved for a sacramental marriage between one man and one woman.

13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.
I don't think anyone is promoting sex outside of marriage as being ok.

Rev. 9:21; 21:8; 22:15; Gal. 5:20 - these verses mention the word "sorcery." The Greek word is "pharmakeia" which includes abortifacient potions such as birth control pills. These pharmakeia are mortally sinful. Moreover, chemical contraception does not necessarily prevent conception, but may actually kill the child in the womb after conception has occurred (by preventing the baby from attaching to the uterine wall). Contraception is a lie that has deceived millions, but the Church is holding her arms open wide to welcome back her children who have strayed from the truth.

21Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.
8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
pharmakeia has been greatly speculated upon.
it could mean a variety of things.
one would think however that if it specifically was referring to such an idea, it would have been clarified.
speculation is not God's Word.

 

[MrsJoy]

Forntuately, people who use BC are neither.



I suppose it's misguided people like this who demonize sex to the point that all but the most labourous and dullest forms of intimacy are lustful, hedoistic displays of satanism.

Such a phobia of sex shouldn't exist is this day and age.

not only just because it is "this day and age" but because scripture does not support such ideas.

 

[MrsJoy]

They are both, for true stupidity is to ignore the Will of God.

this does not add up.
for if you do not KNOW the will of God you cannot either obey nor disobey such.

Falicious arguments.

says you...someone wants to stand on the truth in God's Word that proclaims married sexuality as beautiful and godly.
and doesn't stand on adding to God's Word.
wow.
how horrible.

 

[MrsJoy]

I think true stupditiy is more in line with taking a whole bunch of verses out of context just to beat people over the head with something they do in private.



Completely true. People like that are responsible for people like you.

It's sad you have such a degrading and perverted views of God's gift of sexuality.

i couldn't agree with you more on both accounts.
placing false value on God's Word and twisting scripture in order to imprision God's Free children *false*
and nowhere in God's Word do I find a thing about "every time you come together, it is for the purpose of pro-creation. and always be prepared for it to be such." nowhere.
I doubt such a thing was on the lovers minds in the song of solomon

 

[MrsJoy]

Most sins are done in private.

YIKES.
It has not even remotely been shown that bc is sin.
and sex between a husband and a wife IS a very private thing.

Yes, "people like that"... In other words, you assume his (and my) position on sexual issues, with no evidence to support it, and then slander him. That is called FALLICY.

no one has been slandering anyone.
that would require spreading malicious lies.
everyone here has been debating in a logical fashion.
and logically bc=sin does not add up (nor biblically).
no evidence???
how about false evidence? is that good too?? for that is all I have seen.
i'de say false evidence is fallicy as well.

 

[MrsJoy]

Really? How so? As far as I can tell, I have not assumed what anyones position is on anything.



Who said I was making anyone else's sins my buisness? Did I ask anyone if they use contraception?

indeed.
you have been very condemning and have downright said that using bc is sinful.

 

[MrsJoy]

OY, what a giant mess of missing context! Well I would like to respond to each of these properly, but that will take some time (due to the sheer volume of Scriptural misquoting and twisting there!). I shall return...

what a good way to put it

 

[MrsJoy]

What about barriers? Diaphragms? Condoms?
What about when your wife is too tired and too old to give you any more children?
What about when she has a prolapse?
What about when her life would be endangered by another pregnancy?
What then?

then you are obviously a sinner in need of some truth and salvation from your wayward ways.

 

[MrsJoy]

I certainly do care, as we all should when our fellow man sins.

too bad this has not been shown to be a sin.

 

[MrsJoy]

God also made great use of a convert who previously put His people to death. I hardly think that means He is accepting of that behavior.

too bad we are not under the old covenant.
not to mention that that is not what those scriptures truly mean.

 

[MrsJoy]

No I do not. I am calling sin sin, that is it. I have not accused anyone of practicing it, nor have I inquired. If someone takes offense because I call fornication sin, it is no problem of mine. Niether is it a problem of mine if someone takes offense because I rightly call the use of contraception sinful.

no, you are calling something not addressed in scripture a sin.
you have said that any who do such things are living in sin.
fornication is of course a sin-bc , not shown to be so.
it is your problem if you are adding to God's Word and placing ungody restraints and condemnation on His people.

 

[MrsJoy]

To you. That is fine. If someone does not want to accept a certain behavior is wrong, then there is nothing that really can be done about it.

it's not about accepting certain behaviour as wrong.
we are not talking about new christians who have not yet learned that sex outside of marriage is sinful.
we are talking about intelliegent children of God who have dug deep.
it has NOT been shown.
all I have seen is twisting and abuse of scripture.

 

[MrsJoy]

That last bit is the important part. Your position is not based on common sense. It is not based on science. It is not based on a reasonable critique of all sides of the issue (by your own admission you cannot see the other side of the issue). It is based on what you have been taught. Nothing more.

very well put.
and to put others down when they have indeed delved into both sides and gotten the whole picture is not wise.

 

[MrsJoy]

Funny. Your own sect had the same interpretation as us not even 60 years ago. It is sad that so many Christians have adopted the secular world's standards of morality.

just because a "sect" decides that men's rules and traditon are not bilicat does not dictate the adoption of secular standards.