BIRTH CONTROL OF ANY SORT TAKES LIFE

[Meowzltov]

If God had commanded us to have children he would have made sure we knew abut it,

If you had a closer communion with the Church, you would know it. But although you have a relationship with Christ, you believe that coming under the authority of the Church is unnecessary.

For most of their history, the Protestant denominations also believed in being open to children, and were absolutely opposed to birth control. Martin Luther made a big deal about "Be fruitful and multiply." Acceptance of birth control is a new thing for Protestants. Here is a good website on the history of Contraception and Protestantism.

History of Contraception in the Protestant Church | Bound4LIFE

 

[Philip_B]

If you had a closer communion with the Church, you would know it. But although you have a relationship with Christ, you believe that coming under the authority of the Church is unnecessary. For most of their history, the Protestant denominations also believed in being open to children, and were absolutely opposed to birth control. Martin Luther made a big deal about "Be fruitful and multiply." Acceptance of birth control is a new thing for Protestants. Here is a good website on the history of Contraception and Protestantism.

In fairness, I know lots of Catholics with smaller families these days. I believe that there are numbers of factors that come to play here, and it is not simply a matter of disobedience. Our capacity to support large families in the west is diminished, partly dues to social expectations and improvements in lifestyle. These days in Australia children pretty much regard it as child abuse not to supply them with a mobile phone and a laptop and a ....... . I don't imagine it is much different in the USA or Europe. Reduced propagation rates is statistically consistent with improvements in literacy, general education, and increased social mobility.

For the wandering tribesman with poor health outcomes, significant external threats and poor nutrition, propagation is vital for the survival of the tribe. "Be fruitful and multiply" makes perfect sense in this situation (and infant mortality was high). Today, and certainly in the western world, we have great health outcomes, reduced external threats, and some of the best nutrition ever (possibly even over good - we face national obesity problems - and our average height is perhaps between 10 and 20 percent higher than only 100 years ago.

We also now face climate change when one of the identified causal conditions seems to be very clearly over population, deforestation to support it, and over cropping and over farming. Basically we are not giving the earth a chance to catch it's breath.

Is the command 'be fruitful and multiply' for all time, or for a time? I certainly wish we could loved one another as faithfully as we have been fruitful and multiplied.

I am not a protestant, I am a small c catholic, and as I understand things the ultimate guide for a catholic is the informed conscience. Do I listen to the Church? Yes I do. Do I use the intellect that God has given me? Yes I do. Do I care about the Scriptures and the Traditions? Yes I do. And I am still left with the question - for all time or for a time?

On balance I think I come down to understanding that it is for a time, and I am open to the idea that the universality of that time is not past. I am not completely convinced either way, and I do see it is important for people to find the truth that is the truth for them in their time.

I hope I have been fair. I have to be honest and say I find this statement of yours a bit harsh "you believe that coming under the authority of the Church is unnecessary" and probably not a realistic understanding of the position taken by @Strong in Him unless all it really says is 'if you were a good Catholic girl you would think like me'. I think we do better when we listen to each other, and I know I have had much to think on in what you have posted, however I know this, that Catholic Obedience does not simply mean agreeing with everything a Pope/Bishop/Priest says, Catholic Obedience includes informing ourselves as best as we are able to make the best decisions that we believe that God would have us make - and sometimes that may mean saying, 'I am sorry Father but in true faith I have to conclude that the truth for me is not as you say'. There are many good and faithful Catholic people who have in all honesty come to this position on birth control, and sometimes they deserve to be supported.

Now I understand from what has been posted that this is not the truth for you, and I accept and acknowledge that. Indeed I am glad that with a true and faithful heart you have found solutions that work for you. Those solutions do not need out of hand to be everybody's solutions. And to conclude, let me assure you I don't think any of this is easy.

 

[Strong in Him]

Because I am a Daughter of Israel, yes, I keep them out of love for God.

Well the matter of Christians obeying Jewish laws which were never given to them is a different subject. Neither Jesus nor Paul taught that this was necessary. But if you believe that every word of the Bible is applicable to everyone of us today, then this at least shows consistency.

 

[Strong in Him]

If you had a closer communion with the Church, you would know it.

?? You have no idea about my involvement, or relationship, with my church.

But although you have a relationship with Christ, you believe that coming under the authority of the Church is unnecessary.

My church has never taught me that having children is a command or compulsory.

For most of their history, the Protestant denominations also believed in being open to children, and were absolutely opposed to birth control.

Firstly I have never said that I wasn't open to having children.
Secondly, whatever churches did/taught many years ago; the question of when, or whether, to have children is a personal one for each couple to take themselves and, if Christians, before God.

 

[Meowzltov]

In fairness, I know lots of Catholics with smaller families these days.

May I ask that you go back a bit in the thread and read more of what I've written? I am not advocating large families. Even the Pope says that Catholics don't need to breed like rabbits. My husband and I had exactly two children spaced three years apart -- just what we planned.

What I'm advocating is being open to children -- not being Fertile Myrtles.

 

[Meowzltov]

These days in Australia children pretty much regard it as child abuse not to supply them with a mobile phone and a laptop and a ....... .

So are you going to let the tail wag the dog? I didn't give my kids phones or HDTV's. We had one old playstation 1, an analog TV, and one computer that everyone shared, and a land line. Tough breaks.

 

[Meowzltov]

I am not a protestant, I am a small c catholic, and as I understand things the ultimate guide for a catholic is the informed conscience.

I don't want you to violate your conscience. I want to appeal to your reason so that your conscience becomes more informed. Hopefully the same thing will happen for me in the forum as well.

 

[Meowzltov]

Well the matter of Christians obeying Jewish laws which were never given to them is a different subject.

You didn't read me close enough. I am a Christian. I am also a Jew. I do not practice rabbinical Judaism, obviously, since I believe Jesus is God. However, out of love for God, I do keep Jewish laws and traditions. I don't have to become a Gentile simply because I become a Christian.

 

[Meowzltov]

?? You have no idea about my involvement, or relationship, with my church.

I'm not talking about your local church (small c). I'm talking about the Church (capital C).

 

[Meowzltov]

the question of when, or whether, to have children is a personal one for each couple to take themselves and, if Christians, before God.

Not if God commanded otherwise in the Bible.

 

[Philip_B]

May I ask that you go back a bit in the thread and read more of what I've written? I am not advocating large families. Even the Pope says that Catholics don't need to breed like rabbits. My husband and I had exactly two children spaced three years apart -- just what we planned. What I'm advocating is being open to children -- not being Fertile Myrtles.

I have read this forum all the way and I was in no doubt about the decisions you had taken about family size. I have zero concern about that and I commend you for it.

So are you going to let the tail wag the dog? I didn't give my kids phones or HDTV's. We had one old playstation 1, an analog TV, and one computer that everyone shared, and a land line. Tough breaks.

I understand it is a hard call, but I can assure you I know what parents are told by children and teachers, and in Australian the laptop is regarded as the new pencil in education. I am very aware of the pressures that are applied to parents. I grew up in a world without televisions and mobile phones - I gave one of my children a fountain pen and he photographed it with his phone and searched google to find our what it was and what you did with it. Go figure.

I don't want you to violate your conscience. I want to appeal to your reason so that your conscience becomes more informed. Hopefully the same thing will happen for me in the forum as well.

Thankyou, we have a great deal of common ground, and I can assure you that I have no basis or intent other than that you be deeply true to your informed conscience.

I don't have to become a Gentile simply because I become a Christian.

No you don't, some of the best early Christians were Jews through and through.

I'm not talking about your local church (small c). I'm talking about the Church (capital C).

I have a sneaky feeling that your big C Church is the big C Catholic Church institutionally expressed. For me, and I suspect others the Big C Church is the little c catholic church.

Not if God commanded otherwise in the Bible.

As I have already expressed, that may indeed be a matter of how we understand the command, and I think I said earlier it may be more about whether is is a command for a time or a command for all time. On the one hand we seem to have been quite good at that command, perhaps better at that than any one of those 'moral' commandments expressed in the Decalogue. I don't believe it is just about text, it also requires exegesis. If the world is overpopulated do I not also have to understand something of my role as my brothers keeper.

 

[Meowzltov]

Australian the laptop is regarded as the new pencil in education.

okay, I can see where that might be taking place. where I live, the kids all use computers in the classrooms. If they don't have laptops at home, there is a computer lab they can uses after school. I don't live in a wealthy area.

I gave one of my children a fountain pen and he photographed it with his phone and searched google to find our what it was and what you did with it. Go figure.

LOL oh that's too funny. I remember when my son asked me, "The Beatles? Who are the Beatles?"

 

[Philip_B]

I don't live in a wealthy area.

nor I

 

[Strong in Him]

Not if God commanded otherwise in the Bible.

I don't believe he did; that's the whole point.

If Christian couples believe that God commands them to have children and do nothing to prevent that possibility; that's what they have to do.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm not talking about your local church (small c). I'm talking about the Church (capital C).

All born again believers are the Church; Christians from all denominations. We believe the same Gospel, have the same heavenly Father and are filled with the same Spirit. However we worship now, whichever translation of the Bible we use and whatever church rituals we practice and cling to - we will all meet in heaven.
The Gospel is centred on Jesus. We have eternal life if we accept Jesus and are commanded to keep the commands that Jesus gave = love as he loved us, love God and our neighbour, preach the Gospel and make disciples. Jesus didn't say anything about the number of children, if any, we should have when married. He was far more concerned about people being reconciled to, and becoming, children of God.

 

[Strong in Him]

You didn't read me close enough. I am a Christian. I am also a Jew. I do not practice rabbinical Judaism, obviously, since I believe Jesus is God. However, out of love for God, I do keep Jewish laws and traditions. I don't have to become a Gentile simply because I become a Christian.

Actually I did read that. I just thought maybe you meant you have become a member of the new Israel, which some say is the church; sorry, I misunderstood.

No of course you haven't become a Gentile. I read a book once where the Jewish author said he disliked the phrase "becoming a Christian" or "converting to Christianity" because it implies that he stops being Jewish and takes on another identity. He identified himself as a Jewish Messianic, or Jew who believed their Messiah had come.
God bless you.

 

[Meowzltov]

All born again believers are the Church

I don't believe you are part of the Church unless you are
A. Baptized in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit
B. Wanted to get baptized, but died before you could.
C. Believed in Christ as a child, but were prevented by your parents from getting baptized.
D. You get the pattern by now.

Will Joe Schmoe who willfully refuses to become baptized go to hell? I leave that up to God to judge. But he is certainly not a part of the Church.

 

[Paidiske]

The point, though Open Heart, would be that the Church is bigger than any denominational limits, even by your baptismal criteria.

 

[Meowzltov]

Actually I did read that. I just thought maybe you meant you have become a member of the new Israel, which some say is the church; sorry, I misunderstood.

No of course you haven't become a Gentile. I read a book once where the Jewish author said he disliked the phrase "becoming a Christian" or "converting to Christianity" because it implies that he stops being Jewish and takes on another identity. He identified himself as a Jewish Messianic, or Jew who believed their Messiah had come.
God bless you.

Yes, I often use the term Messianic Jew for the same reason. The Catholic church prefers the term Hebrew Catholic so that there is no misunderstanding that we practice Judaism. Personally, I don't like "Hebrew" since it makes it seem like I'm no longer a Jew in some weird way.

 

[Meowzltov]

The point, though Open Heart, would be that the Church is bigger than any denominational limits, even by your baptismal criteria.

All baptized believers have a certain, albeit imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.