birth control issues - engaged couple

[IslandBreeze]

I know other women who have professional responsibilities, quite similar to what was described above, that use NFP without condoms and quite sucessfully. Condoms are not a necessary "back up".

I don't understand your extreme concern for what other people are doing in the privacy of their sexual relationship with their spouse.

When using NFP you are abstaining from sex during the fertile period if in fact you are using NFP to avoid pregnancy.

Abstinance in marriage is not Biblical (see my previous post and Scripture for further explanation).

Condoms are not that reliable.( I believe it is 86%).

Actually, condoms are 98% reliable when used correctly.

Condoms can cause men to have some stamina difficulties.

And they can help others by desensitizing, allowing them to extend the time intercourse takes them.

I think the overall tone in this thread is extremely negative and judgemental from some. I said it before, I'll say it again. Birth control is an extremely private and personal choice, and who is anyone to judge someone else for their choice of birth control? If God convicts you about it, great. If he doesn't convict me about it, get off my case about it; it's none of your business. The OP was asking for advice about birth control, not asking for people to let everybody else know how evil they are for using birth control.

 

[Fireman's Wife]

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no, because you're not using condoms when you're not fertile

That is my point. During the actual time of fertility. The only time you are fertile you are using condoms as your "protection" against pregnancy.

mucus is only one of the three signs of fertlity, basal temp being the most prominent

Actually, there are many different signs of fertility. You have listed but a few of the signs. Basal temperature may be used in your method but most of the women who use NFP use only mucus observation. Especially in second and third world countries (where most NFP is used) where a thermometer might not be readily available or too expensive. I myself have used NFP for years and have never taken my temperature for fertility awareness.

Condoms have a higher relaibility percentile when used properly.

84-85% is the "typical use" effectiveness of a condom. (source...Reeder/Martin Maternity Nursing) The typical use effectiveness of NFP used for avoiding pregnancy is high 90%'s. (can't find my exact # on that right now.

Point taken, it is riskier obviously to have sex with protection during the fertile period. That is an individual choice and all I was doing was providing my experience, which is all I think one can really do.

I agree.

I have not experienced this. If this were the case, there is other options besides condoms.

I do not think this has to be the case with everyone, but I do think it is common enough that it is worth a thought especially because it can be difficult for men to overcome. (No experience here either, but we do not use condoms.)

Thank you for your very cordial exchange. I appreciate your response.

Fireman's Wife

 

[Fireman's Wife]

We are looking into FAM. My husband doesn't like the idea of NFP because of the abstaining period. As it is, we use condoms because of the adverse effects the Pill had on me. Plus I was a little concerned about the moral issue of the Pill, even though most aren't certain on that issue.

Katelyn, It is a fact published by the pharmacuetical manufactuers themselves that the pill can be abortifacient, which is what I am assuming you mean by "moral issue". I am not sure what you mean by most. Perhaps most people are not aware of this effect or most people refuse to believe it or most people do not care. But the facts are most in the medical community agree that hormonal birth control is abortifacient due to the data they have collected from their own studies.

Also, the abstaining period is really not for long periods of time. I understand your concerns about this. I had the same concern when we began using NFP. The amount of time spent abstaining just doesn't amount to that much.

I don't really appreciate this insinuation. Birth control is an issue that my husband and I approached together. We did try the Pill despite my hesitations, because it seemed the most convenient. After a few months we both agreed it wasn't working out because of the strong effect it had on me. So, we agreed to switch to condoms. If my husband had a problem with it, we would discuss it. Not being on the Pill is not just about me not wanting to suffer any of the consequences of birth control and putting the consequences onto my husband. Every form of birth control can be seen as having a down side. My husband and I like the idea of FAM because the knowledge about my fertility will help us to use condoms the least number of days possible per month, therefore avoiding the possible sexual health problems for my husband.

There was no insinuation meant therefore none should be taken.

Since you brought up the morality issue of hormonal birth control, I would like to ask you to take some time to read this and other threads (especially other threads) on the subject and judge for yourself if there is in fact a bigger moral question to birth control than just the abortifacient thing.

This post is meant with all sincerity and not meant in anyway to be taken as ill will.

Fireman's Wife

 

[Fireman's Wife]

I don't understand your extreme concern for what other people are doing in the privacy of their sexual relationship with their spouse.

Cammie,

First of all, it is called dialogue not extreme concern. This is a forum and on forums people dialogue about issues that interest them. I might ask you what your extreme concern with me is since twice you have attacked me now?

Abstinance in marriage is not Biblical (see my previous post and Scripture for further explanation).

It most certainly is biblical. You quoted a scripture that in fact says that spouses may for a time abstain only to come back together at the end of that short time which is exactly what NFPers do. Further, I wonder if you have ever read some of the Judaic Laws (Old Testament) on abstaining? It is very specific on the issue and worth a read anyhow. Certainly abstaining is O.K. biblicaly.

Actually, condoms are 98% reliable when used correctly.

Actually typical use effectiveness is around 85% effective. (See my earlier post with source info.)

And they can help others by desensitizing, allowing them to extend the time intercourse takes them.

Well, that is one way to look at it, but it is arguable whether in fact this is a "cure" or a way to become dysfunctional. The dulling of sensation is a problem. If you cannot have sex without a condom because you premature [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] then there is a dysfunction.

I think the overall tone in this thread is extremely negative and judgemental from some. I said it before, I'll say it again. Birth control is an extremely private and personal choice, and who is anyone to judge someone else for their choice of birth control? If God convicts you about it, great. If he doesn't convict me about it, get off my case about it; it's none of your business. The OP was asking for advice about birth control, not asking for people to let everybody else know how evil they are for using birth control.

Well, I have taken the brunt of the negative comments and I do not see this thread as either extremely negative or judgemental. There have been heated discussions as there are just about anytime people talk about such intimate issues. Further, I have never been on your case. I can however give my opinion on the subject just as you have. Though, whether or not you agree or disagree with me has no bearing on my opinion. And just to set the record straight again...Nobody has called another person "evil" in this thread. That is such a libleous remark to put forth toward me and I do not appreciate it.

Fireman's Wife

 

[katelyn]

Katelyn, It is a fact published by the pharmacuetical manufactuers themselves that the pill can be abortifacient, which is what I am assuming you mean by "moral issue". I am not sure what you mean by most. Perhaps most people are not aware of this effect or most people refuse to believe it or most people do not care. But the facts are most in the medical community agree that hormonal birth control is abortifacient due to the data they have collected from their own studies.

What I meant by "most" is that when I've looked to Christian organizations for their opinion on birth control, most of the ones I've looked to have said that they feel there is inconclusive data and therefore don't take a strong stance on the issue.

I have not investigated the medical community's statements other than to read the literature about the specific brand of birth control I was briefly on, and they stated nothing about the pill being abortifacient.

Also, the abstaining period is really not for long periods of time. I understand your concerns about this. I had the same concern when we began using NFP. The amount of time spent abstaining just doesn't amount to that much.

Perhaps, but the fact there is an abstaining period at all really turns my husband off to the idea, to the point where there was no convincing him even to try it. Perhaps once we begin using the FAM method, if we (he ) realize(s) that the fertile period is brief, then we will switch to the NFP method.

There was no insinuation meant therefore none should be taken.

Okay. I wasn't angry at you or anything, I just thought it sounded like you were insinuating that wives who advocate condom use are not being thoughtful to the consequences their husbands might face because of it. I thought that to be an unfair statement.

Since you brought up the morality issue of hormonal birth control, I would like to ask you to take some time to read this and other threads (especially other threads) on the subject and judge for yourself if there is in fact a bigger moral question to birth control than just the abortifacient thing.

I know that I have briefly looked at some of the birth control threads around here and I may look into them further if I feel the need. However, I don't see myself ever going on hormonal birth control in the future, so I think that I'm safe in maintaining my view that although I'm not certain about the negative effects of hormonal birth control, I would rather play it safe and use a different method.

 

[SlowRoasted]

Abstinance in marriage is not Biblical (see my previous post and Scripture for further explanation).

forgive me for not having the scripture on hand, but i read somewhere in the new testament where it warns men to use caution in marrying virgins, as in ones that are going to stay virgins, because it will be hard for them. If anyone has the exact verses that would be great i dont have time to look it up right now.

im guessing that says abstaining IS biblical, am i wrong?

 

[LN]

That is my point. During the actual time of fertility. The only time you are fertile you are using condoms as your "protection" against pregnancy.

Exactly. Why use condoms all month long if you don't have to?

Basal temperature may be used in your method but most of the women who use NFP use only mucus observation.

I respectfully disagree. Most I have spoken with who follow FAM or NFP have read the book, Taking Charge of Your Fertility

www.tcoyf.org

which determines basal temp as the primary indicator of body temp.

I was also quite taken aback by your response, and I attempted to respond politely as possible. I think the most frusterating thing was feeling as though I was being spoken to as if I'm undereducated in this particular topic and my opinion and experience is not correct. Its not an enjoyable way to have a conversation, particularly when I am educated on this topic. I had a hard time not coming off as though I was on the defensive.

LN

 

[LN]

Also, there is no study to this that I know of (unfortuantely many medical studies are linked to the drug industry), but out of all my friends who have had miscariages every single one of them had just come off the pill.

Something to consider.

 

[Fireman's Wife]

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Exactly. Why use condoms all month long if you don't have to?

Although I am not agreeing with condom use, I think we are making the same point.

I respectfully disagree. Most I have spoken with who follow FAM or NFP have read the book, Taking Charge of Your Fertility

www.tcoyf.org

which determines basal temp as the primary indicator of body temp.

There are many, many books out there on NFP. There are courses offered in all the different types of NFP as well. I know there are many women that use basal temp as at least one of their indicators. As we both have stated it is not the only way. Most women who use NFP do not live in the U.S. and they use more basic methods of NFP.

I was also quite taken aback by your response, and I attempted to respond politely as possible. I think the most frusterating thing was feeling as though I was being spoken to as if I'm undereducated in this particular topic and my opinion and experience is not correct. Its not an enjoyable way to have a conversation, particularly when I am educated on this topic. I had a hard time not coming off as though I was on the defensive.

This was not my intention at all. On the contrary, I found you educated on the subject. The reason I responded is because I wanted to make the point that when using NFP no back up (condom) is necessary. I did not take you as defensive at all. Again, thank you for your cordial responses!

Fireman's Wife

 

[LN]

The reason I responded is because I wanted to make the point that when using NFP no back up (condom) is necessary.

A good point. Thank you for your educated responses.

All the best,

LN

 

[IslandBreeze]

I might ask you what your extreme concern with me is since twice you have attacked me now?

Since when is questioning someone attacking? I believe calling someone immoral because you disagree with their opinion attacking. I was simply defending myself.

Further, I wonder if you have ever read some of the Judaic Laws (Old Testament) on abstaining?

I am a Christian; I'm not Jewish. After the crucifixion/resurrection, Christians are not under Jewish Law anymore. And yes, I have read old testament rules on abstaining. Most pertain to a woman's monthly flow, not abstaining for bith control purposes.

Certainly abstaining is O.K. biblicaly.

In your opinion. I don't think it's Biblically okay.

Well, I have taken the brunt of the negative comments and I do not see this thread as either extremely negative or judgemental.

I happen to disagree.

Further, I have never been on your case.

The last part of my post was not directed at you. It was directed at everyone in general.

And just to set the record straight again...Nobody has called another person "evil" in this thread.

You're right. The word used was immoral, not evil. And it was still out of line and inappropriate.

 

[jenptcfan]

This isn't directed at anyone in particular. It's just a thought I've had after reading through this thread. The abstinance period of NFP is at most about 5 days, correct? And the scripture that was used to say abstinance within marriage is wrong said it's wrong unless the down time is used for prayer/fasting. Why then would it be wrong to use those 5 days for prayer and fasting? We can't pick up the first part of the bible verse and use it to make our case and then throw out the end of the verse.

I know that there is a thread in the women's discussion forum that deals with women actually wanting to abstain when they visit relatives' houses, etc, and I believe the time period mentioned there was 10 days. Several women said "10 days really isn't that long to abstain, I don't understand why my husband can't just wait, etc". Abstaining is abstaining. If we're going to make the argument that abstaining for NFP purposes is biblically wrong, then we must also say that abstaining because we don't feel comfortable having sex in our parents house is wrong also.

All that just to make the point that nobody has sex 24-7. If you go a day without having sex, then you've abstained for a day. What married couple hasn't gone a day without sex (unless they're newlyweds!)? Is that wrong too? If not, then after how many days does it become wrong? It's all subjective.

I don't agree with all that's been stated by either side of this argument, but it's definately an issue that I'm interested in. I'm new to the idea of NFP and FAM, but I love the idea of not having to take a pill every day (which can cause some serious health problems in some people).

God bless all of you!
J

 

[msjones21]

To those who say abstinence goes against the Bible are you implying that a husband and wife are to make love every single day of their marriage? At best you're only fertile for five days maybe seven. Would it kill you to wait that long? Please do not take the Scriptures out of context so that you can engage in total unbridled lust within the marriage.

I do not think there's anything immoral about using condoms, but to use the argument of how abstinence within the marriage is sinful as your defense is not the best way to approach it. I personally will choose NFP when I am married because I have a heart condition that prohibits me from using hormonal contraception and I find condoms and especially diaphragms to be inconvenient. I do think hormonal birth control is sinful because it alters your body. Why put your body through that just so you can avoid pregnancy? I understand there are some instances in which a medical condition may be the reason you take it, but I find it, I dunno, rather selfish about saying "I'm going to play god over my own reproductive health and alter my hormones because having a baby just ain't in the cards for me right now". To me, if I don't want to have a baby at a certain point in time it's not worth the risk of a condom breaking or a pill not working simply because my husband and I can't control our libidos. One can be married, obey the Biblical commands for the marriage bed, and maintain self control. And believe it or not, NFP isn't just a "Catholic" thing. Sam and Bethany Torode have written a book about NFP in the Protestant perspective.

 

[katelyn]

I agree. I don't think that either FAM or NFP are morally or Biblically wrong. I think the choice between the two is just a personal preference. Maybe NFP is a more reliable method than FAM (I don't know for sure, but it seems logical), but that doesn't mean that FAM is wrong to use.

 

[msjones21]

No, I don't think FAM is wrong to use. To me, the risk isn't worth taking. If you choose to have sex on your fertile days and the condoms breaks you'll most likely become pregnant. I don't see any moral reasons why someone shouldn't use it though. It's just not for me.

 

[katelyn]

No, I don't think FAM is wrong to use. To me, the risk isn't worth taking. If you choose to have sex on your fertile days and the condoms breaks you'll most likely become pregnant. I don't see any moral reasons why someone shouldn't use it though. It's just not for me.

Sounds fine to me!

Really, it doesn't make a difference to me whether someone chooses one or the other. FAM will probably work for me & my husband because we're planning to go off birth control next fall...so if on the off chance a condom breaks and I get pregnant, it won't be a major issue for us. Under different circumstances, I might feel differently.

 

[IslandBreeze]

I'm just going to say a few things and be done with this thread, because it's not going anywhere, and I feel that people who have no qualms about hormonal birth control (or other methods) are going to be berated and insulted no matter what.

For me, using NFP with abstinance would be morally wrong. I don't believe in using abstinence as a form of birth control. I personally do not believe that is Biblical. (And to the person who said it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, I believe sex in someone else's house is a different kind of abstinence, and is not to be done in someone else's house out of respect. I know that comment was directed at me, as I was the one who had made those comments.) For me, using hormonal birth control is my best option. I am not convicted about it, and do not view it as an abortifacient.

To the person talking about selfishness; I'll be the first to admit I'm selfish. Children do not fit into my life in any way, shape or form right now. And I believe that is God's plan for my life at this point. And I also believe that God wants me to use birth control. Yes, it's probably selfish, but I'd rather be selfish now than be a selfish parent. I don't want children unless I'm able to stay at home with them--so tell me just how selfish I am by waiting until it's affordable for me to be a SAHM.

I've read several statements about how immoral and sinful (not to mention selfish) people who use hormonal birth control are. I don't think those comments are fair, and I think they are very presumptuous, hurtful, and downright rude. If God convicts someone about birth control, then for them it is a sin. I am not convicted about it, therefore (for me) it is not a sin. And I don't think any one of you has any business calling any of us who use birth control sinful or immoral.

 

[LN]

I agree Cammie. Well said.

My husband read "Every man's struggle" and shared some of the things he learned in that book. For me, and my relationship, I would not feel comfortable not having sex for 7 days (which is the window you often need most months to be sure). In my experience, it puts a hormonal strain on the man.

All men are different, of course - but that is my main reasoning. One of the reasons why I feel my marriage is successful (we get along very well) is because we have learned how to meet each other's needs. To my husband, sex is very important. Now I might not understand that 100%, and he might not understand my need to have quality time together every day - but we work meet each other's needs and as a result our marriage is great.

LN

 

[Fireman's Wife]

Since when is questioning someone attacking? I believe calling someone immoral because you disagree with their opinion attacking. I was simply defending myself.

I have never called anyone immoral. I have stated some acts as immoral or morally unacceptable within the context of the subject that was on hand at the time.(which was many, many post ago and several weeks back.) Indicating publically to others on this thread that I have called someone immoral and/or evil (now for a third time) is certainly an attack on my character which I consider libel.

I am a Christian; I'm not Jewish. After the crucifixion/resurrection, Christians are not under Jewish Law anymore. And yes, I have read old testament rules on abstaining. Most pertain to a woman's monthly flow, not abstaining for bith control purposes.

Yes, it is interesting how, if followed, the chosen people were actually having intercourse on the most fertile days of a women cycle. Another example of where birth control is atleast biblicaly questionable, not just up to the couple without any moral discernment. BTW, Christ said He did not come to abolish the Law, He came to fulfill it.

In your opinion. I don't think it's Biblically okay.

So we both have our opinions.

The last part of my post was not directed at you. It was directed at everyone in general.

Well you have responded in the same manner to my postings twice now so I concluded that it was directed at me not to mention that you contradict yourself in the very next quoted statement which is also libel.

You're right. The word used was immoral, not evil. And it was still out of line and inappropriate.

Again,I have never called anyone immoral. There is a big difference in calling a particular act immoral and calling a human immoral. Your libel is out of line.

 

[Fireman's Wife]

This isn't directed at anyone in particular. It's just a thought I've had after reading through this thread. The abstinance period of NFP is at most about 5 days, correct? And the scripture that was used to say abstinance within marriage is wrong said it's wrong unless the down time is used for prayer/fasting. Why then would it be wrong to use those 5 days for prayer and fasting? We can't pick up the first part of the bible verse and use it to make our case and then throw out the end of the verse.

I know that there is a thread in the women's discussion forum that deals with women actually wanting to abstain when they visit relatives' houses, etc, and I believe the time period mentioned there was 10 days. Several women said "10 days really isn't that long to abstain, I don't understand why my husband can't just wait, etc". Abstaining is abstaining. If we're going to make the argument that abstaining for NFP purposes is biblically wrong, then we must also say that abstaining because we don't feel comfortable having sex in our parents house is wrong also.

All that just to make the point that nobody has sex 24-7. If you go a day without having sex, then you've abstained for a day. What married couple hasn't gone a day without sex (unless they're newlyweds!)? Is that wrong too? If not, then after how many days does it become wrong? It's all subjective.

I don't agree with all that's been stated by either side of this argument, but it's definately an issue that I'm interested in. I'm new to the idea of NFP and FAM, but I love the idea of not having to take a pill every day (which can cause some serious health problems in some people).

God bless all of you!
J

Great post!

Fireman's Wife