Biden's Proposals Aim to Give Sturdier Support to the Middle Class

[Oneiric1975]

Do you honestly think that the government would do a better job at this than you?

Yes. Charities, while really great, seldom meet the needs as effectively as large-scale government programs.

The Conservative Myth of a Social Safety Net Built on Charity

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Will there be pork in this?

There will always be something that someone will call "pork" but it's pretty much a nonsense term used mostly by recipients of pork to project onto those that they believe are threatening to take it from them. Case in point - Republicans who blocked NY and NJ from superstorm Sandy relief with accusations of "pork" while they have lived their entire lives on "pork".

So honestly there's very rarely any real "pork" in anything where people cry "pork". Money is going to go where needed so if it's needed more in one place than another, so be it. It's mostly my tax dollar, anyway.

Biden's plan is absolutely the right thing for him to do.

 

[98cwitr]

If you are happy to pay more, then do it now. You are better at handling money than the government.

pay.gov is a real website!

 

[Hammster]

Yes. Charities, while really great, seldom meet the needs as effectively as large-scale government programs.

The Conservative Myth of a Social Safety Net Built on Charity

I guess to be clearer, do you think all of this extra money you are so willing to pay will be used as intended? Iow, do you think the government is efficient enough to spend your money effectively?

 

[98cwitr]

Yes. Charities, while really great, seldom meet the needs as effectively as large-scale government programs.

The Conservative Myth of a Social Safety Net Built on Charity

I don't see how that accounts for those who would be off of welfare and into a career if we simply placed stricter limitations (ie: time limitations) on those programs.

 

[Hammster]

There will always be something that someone will call "pork" but it's pretty much a nonsense term used mostly by recipients of pork to project onto those that they believe are threatening to take it from them. Case in point - Republicans who blocked NY and NJ from superstorm Sandy relief with accusations of "pork" while they have lived their entire lives on "pork".

So honestly there's very rarely any real "pork" in anything where people cry "pork". Money is going to go where needed so if it's needed more in one place than another, so be it. It's mostly my tax dollar, anyway.

Biden's plan is absolutely the right thing for him to do.

No pork. Okay. If you believe that, then there’s really nothing to discuss.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Why do you look down on poor people and think that they will turn to crime?

If you look back on the conversation, I never said "poor" -- I said people who had lost their job,their house, their means of taking care of themselves, etc., etc...

Poverty doesn't drive people to crime; desperation does. A poor person, no matter how poor, as long as he has a roof over his head, food on the table, and a reasonable expectation that he'll still have them next week, is unlikely to turn to crime.

Take those away and see what happens.

What makes you think I don’t support the poor in my community and elsewhere?

I'm sure you do -- but I also know for a fact you don't do enough.
This is not a slight against you; you don't do enough because you can't. You're just one person, after all.
Be nice if there were a system in place that would coordinate your efforts with other people's and get things done on the scale we need. That'd need to be a pretty big system... big as a country, one might say.

No doubt you can. That is until they come for your money.

They're already coming for my money. They've been coming for my money every April 15 since the day I turned 18.

...And they've been spending it on all sorts of garbage I never asked for and never wanted: foreign wars, Abstinence-Only educational programs, giant metal fences in the middle of nowhere...

About time they started spending it on stuff I think is worthwhile.

 

[Oneiric1975]

I guess to be clearer, do you think all of this extra money you are so willing to pay will be used as intended? Iow, do you think the government is efficient enough to spend your money effectively?

In general, yes.

Certainly it CAN be if we honestly want it.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

No pork. Okay. If you believe that, then there’s really nothing to discuss.

I didn't say "no pork". But you want out of the discussion?

As I said earlier, you are not being required to live to any kind of standard, so I don't know where your initial comment came from that you took down this path.

 

[Hammster]

If you look back on the conversation, I never said "poor" -- I said people who had lost their job,their house, their means of taking care of themselves, etc., etc...

Poverty doesn't drive people to crime; desperation does. A poor person, no matter how poor, as long as he has a roof over his head, food on the table, and a reasonable expectation that he'll still have them next week, is unlikely to turn to crime.

Take those away and see what happens.

Twice I’ve lost jobs since I’ve been married with children. I’m the sole earner in my family. And twice I never turned to crime. I really don’t think I’m that special.

I'm sure you do -- but I also know for a fact you don't do enough.
This is not a slight against you; you don't do enough because you can't. You're just one person, after all.
Be nice if there were a system in place that would coordinate your efforts with other people's and get things done on the scale we need. That'd need to be a pretty big system... big as a country, one might say.

Well, using that argument, paying more in taxes won’t help because I’m just one person.

 

[Hammster]

In general, yes.

Certainly it CAN be if we honestly want it.

Wow. Okay. I guess there’s nothing more to discuss.

 

[Hammster]

I didn't say "no pork". But you want out of the discussion?

As I said earlier, you are not being required to live to any kind of standard, so I don't know where your initial comment came from that you took down this path.

Biden thinks he needs to save something that doesn’t need saving, ie the middle class. The middle class is a standard.

 

[98cwitr]

Biden thinks he needs to save something that doesn’t need saving, ie the middle class. The middle class is a standard.

And that's based on conjecture. The middle class needs saving from his administration, in spite of it.

 

[Oneiric1975]

Wow. Okay. I guess there’s nothing more to discuss.

I'm uncertain why this merited a "wow". Do you not believe we can do this? As a nation we've done many amazing things. We've sent people to the moon which we did as a group. We've conquered the atom. We've cured diseases. We've revolutionized agriculture. We've made the world a safer place through our military. We're a pretty amazing society when we want to focus our resources and pool them and use them.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Biden thinks he needs to save something that doesn’t need saving, ie the middle class. The middle class is a standard.

He does need to save the middle class. The middle class drives the nation, economically and otherwise. And the middle class is being unfairly burdened. And the middle class is not just a standard but class of people.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Twice I’ve lost jobs since I’ve been married with children. I’m the sole earner in my family. And twice I never turned to crime. I really don’t think I’m that special.

Your wife and kids might disagree.

I've lost more jobs than you, and I never turned to crime either. Because I never lost hope that I could get another job before things got too bad... and I'll bet you didn't either.

But if you had... if your kids were going to bed hungry more and more often, well...
is there anything you wouldn't do for them?

Well, using that argument, paying more in taxes won’t help because I’m just one person.

I suppose, then -- using that argument -- we'll have to get more than one person to pay more taxes. Or is that too radical an idea?

 

[Hammster]

I'm uncertain why this merited a "wow". Do you not believe we can do this? As a nation we've done many amazing things. We've sent people to the moon which we did as a group. We've conquered the atom. We've cured diseases. We've revolutionized agriculture. We've made the world a safer place through our military. We're a pretty amazing society when we want to focus our resources and pool them and use them.

I don’t trust the government to use money wisely.

 

[Hammster]

Your wife and kids might disagree.

I've lost more jobs than you, and I never turned to crime either. Because I never lost hope that I could get another job before things got too bad... and I'll bet you didn't either.

But if you had... if your kids were going to bed hungry more and more often, well...
is there anything you wouldn't do for them?

I would not turn to crime. I might work four shifts at various fast food places, though.

I suppose, then -- using that argument -- we'll have to get more than one person to pay more taxes. Or is that too radical an idea?

My point is that you said my contributions weren’t enough because I’m only one person. My charitable giving go to places where I’m not the only one giving. For instance, this past Christmas our church gave out 57 food baskets to local families who couldn’t afford to provide a Christmas dinner. We gave a significant amount. But our amount alone wouldn’t cover even close to the total.

And every dime went to those families, and what was left over went to the benevolent fund for other needs that might arise in the community.

The government would not be that effective.

 

[Oneiric1975]

I don’t trust the government to use money wisely.

I can understand that it isn't perfect but it's done America and the world a lot of good when we do so.

 

[SummerMadness]

I would not turn to crime. I might work four shifts at various fast food places, though.


My point is that you said my contributions weren’t enough because I’m only one person. My charitable giving go to places where I’m not the only one giving. For instance, this past Christmas our church gave out 57 food baskets to local families who couldn’t afford to provide a Christmas dinner. We gave a significant amount. But our amount alone wouldn’t cover even close to the total.

And every dime went to those families, and what was left over went to the benevolent fund for other needs that might arise in the community.

The government would not be that effective.

How long does a food basket last one family? The notion that charitable giving would somehow takeover from government assistance is laughable, especially when some charities discriminate against groups of people. The best thing about government is that it is non-discriminatory, private charities, especially churches do not do this. You may argue this is admirable because you want people leading a certain lifestyle you judge as worthy, but from a societal standpoint, allowing some people to slip through the cracks because you judge them as unworthy is worse for the overall society.