Biden's Proposals Aim to Give Sturdier Support to the Middle Class

[disciple Clint]

That is not evidence. That is a prediction. I predict that you will win $1000 next week.

Does that count as evidence?

Being told X will happen if you do Y when the evidence up to that point indicates that in fact X causes A to happen (multiple times) is NOT evidence.

Can you provide any evidence that trickle down economics has done what it suggests?

Because that’s what I’m asking.

1. That is not what you ask for evidence about.
2. It is obviously not possible to get historical evidence for something that has not happened, projection back up by experts will just have to do.
3. This is an extensive 50+ page study done by experts and backed up with projections based on solid facts
4. The projections back up exactly what I posted.
If you have expert evidence that can refute my evidence bring it on otherwise this is a closed case. I proved my point.

 

[98cwitr]

The slaves weren't free at the founding of the country. Do you think the slaves would have been freed without government intervention?

That'd be some real irony wouldn't it: Free institutionally bound slaves in 1865 just to implement institutional public slavery <200 years later. After all, Biden said that no amendment is absolute, I guess that includes the 13th.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

OK, so no specific middle class protection ordination. Got it. The Bible is not a guide for governments to rule by. But feel free to exegete away at your leisure.

The word "middle class" doesn't need to be in there for it to be talking about the people in the middle class. If you believe the actual word must be in there otherwise the Bible isn't talking about it then you must admit that the Bible is not against abortion because the word "abortion" is nowhere in the Bible. Do you believe the Bible is not against abortion? I notice you dodged this (and the other questions) earlier.

The Bible is not a guide for the government - God uses the government however He wants. I know that because Romans 13 says so. Romans 13 instructs us on what the government's role is and that it is ordained by God to deliver His Justice to the people. It's very clear. If the Bible is your guide then you would want to know what it says and listen to what it says about anything, including government. But you are indicating that you believe the Bible is not a guide for you regarding government. So you pick and choose when to use the Bible as a guide? Or do you even use the Bible as a guide at all?

And I don't need to exegete the passage any further for my own sake, I've done it before. I was offering to help you with it but you clearly don't want to listen to it anyway.

But here's the text, pay attention to the bold parts, and how often the government is called God's minister, and especially the warning in verse 2 to those who don't heed this passage:
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

 

[BigDaddy4]

The word "middle class" doesn't need to be in there for it to be talking about the people in the middle class. If you believe the actual word must be in there otherwise the Bible isn't talking about it then you must admit that the Bible is not against abortion because the word "abortion" is nowhere in the Bible. Do you believe the Bible is not against abortion? I notice you dodged this (and the other questions) earlier.

The Bible is not a guide for the government - God uses the government however He wants. I know that because Romans 13 says so. Romans 13 instructs us on what the government's role is and that it is ordained by God to deliver His Justice to the people. It's very clear. If the Bible is your guide then you would want to know what it says and listen to what it says about anything, including government. But you are indicating that you believe the Bible is not a guide for you regarding government. So you pick and choose when to use the Bible as a guide? Or do you even use the Bible as a guide at all?

And I don't need to exegete the passage any further for my own sake, I've done it before. I was offering to help you with it but you clearly don't want to listen to it anyway.

But here's the text, pay attention to the bold parts, and how often the government is called God's minister, and especially the warning in verse 2 to those who don't heed this passage:
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

This ^^ does not answer this (your exact words):

As for protecting the middle class, that IS the government's job, for sure. God-ordained, in fact.

Your exegesis is lacking, but your eisegesis is showing. There are plenty of other countries that do not have, and may never have had, a middle class. Likewise, there are plenty of governments who treat their citizens terribly. Where's God's ordination for them? Or is the USA special in that regard?

Everything you quoted is for how God's people should respond to government, not how a government should govern its people. We are not a theocracy. You are bringing in something to the Biblical text that is not there.

Given your (and other Christian posters) responses to the Trump administration over the last 4 years, it's odd that you would quote these passages where "tribute", "be subject to", etc. are used in support of your obvious love for Biden. I guess verses 1 and 2 only apply to "certain" rulers, huh?

 

[Larniavc]

2. It is obviously not possible to get historical evidence for something that has not happened, projection back up by experts will just have to do.

????

I’m at a loss. The projections that these people have made is counter to what has actually happened at least twice in recent American history and has never itself happened in line with these predictions.

Cutting taxes for super earners and trickle down economics has never been shown to work EVEN when experts have claimed it would.

You can’t give an example of it working before yet believe that ‘this time’ it will.

I’m aghast and agog. I can continue no more. Come sweet night, lay your shroud around me.

 

[Pommer]

That'd be some real irony wouldn't it: Free institutionally bound slaves in 1865 just to implement institutional public slavery <200 years later. After all, Biden said that no amendment is absolute, I guess that includes the 13th.

As if the 13th Amendment doesn’t have “except” as it’s sixth word.

 

[98cwitr]

The word "middle class" doesn't need to be in there for it to be talking about the people in the middle class. If you believe the actual word must be in there otherwise the Bible isn't talking about it then you must admit that the Bible is not against abortion because the word "abortion" is nowhere in the Bible. Do you believe the Bible is not against abortion? I notice you dodged this (and the other questions) earlier.

The Bible is not a guide for the government - God uses the government however He wants. I know that because Romans 13 says so. Romans 13 instructs us on what the government's role is and that it is ordained by God to deliver His Justice to the people. It's very clear. If the Bible is your guide then you would want to know what it says and listen to what it says about anything, including government. But you are indicating that you believe the Bible is not a guide for you regarding government. So you pick and choose when to use the Bible as a guide? Or do you even use the Bible as a guide at all?

And I don't need to exegete the passage any further for my own sake, I've done it before. I was offering to help you with it but you clearly don't want to listen to it anyway.

But here's the text, pay attention to the bold parts, and how often the government is called God's minister, and especially the warning in verse 2 to those who don't heed this passage:
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Just to be clear, from 2016-2020, you're saying Trump was God's minister?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Just to be clear, from 2016-2020, you're saying Trump was God's minister?

In terms of earthly governance, absolutely. If Trump signed something into law do you think that I chose to disregard it as a real law just because I didn't like Trump? (I didn't.) God sets up and takes down leaders and He has shown that he has permitted bad leaders, but Romans 13 says they are leaders nonetheless. There are things we can do while respecting earthly authority to change a bad leader but we don't have the right to disregard and disobey earthly governmental law (except where it would cause us to directly sin against God).

I'm honestly surprised that you would question this as it's based on Romans 13 and I thought you had an understanding of that passage.

 

[morningstar2651]

https://www.hoover.org/sites/defaul...nt_bidens_economic_agenda_hassett_updated.pdf

I was hoping for it to be something published by the CBO. The CBO is pretty reliable. I'm not as confident about the Hoover Institute's reliability. The CBO is non-partisan, but the Hoover Institute has a pretty clear bias.

 

[morningstar2651]

That'd be some real irony wouldn't it: Free institutionally bound slaves in 1865 just to implement institutional public slavery <200 years later. After all, Biden said that no amendment is absolute, I guess that includes the 13th.

The 13th amendment still includes a loophole for legalized slavery. We've had state-sponsored slavery since privately owned slaves were abolished. The South switched from buying slaves to leasing convicts from prisons.

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

There is a reason 25% of the world's prison population is in the United States despite our country being 5% of the world's population. Slavery is still alive and well in our country thanks to the phrasing of the 13th amendment. We just call it prison labor today.

The Louisiana State Penitentiary is a repurposed slave plantation where convicts are slaves for the state today.

Wal-Mart sourced products from slave labor as recently as last year.

 

[morningstar2651]

The 13th amendment still includes a loophole for legalized slavery. We've had state-sponsored slavery since privately owned slaves were abolished. The South switched from buying slaves to leasing convicts from prisons.

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

There is a reason 25% of the world's prison population is in the United States despite our country being 5% of the world's population. Slavery is still alive and well in our country thanks to the phrasing of the 13th amendment. We just call it prison labor today.

The Louisiana State Penitentiary is a repurposed slave plantation where convicts are slaves for the state today.

Wal-Mart sourced products from slave labor as recently as last year.

This gets even more concerning when you realize that we have privatized a portion of the prison industry in our country, which means we have companies on the stock exchange that make money by selling slave labor.

 

[morningstar2651]

I'll just leave this verse here...

Acts 2:44-45

From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.

 

[disciple Clint]

I was hoping for it to be something published by the CBO. The CBO is pretty reliable. I'm not as confident about the Hoover Institute's reliability. The CBO is non-partisan, but the Hoover Institute has a pretty clear bias.

There is a contribution from CBO in the report.

 

[Gene2memE]

I'm going to flat out disagree with some of the Hoover Institute's modelling, at least on the labour side of the equation when it comes to the ACA.

They've got the long term effect of the ACA as a strong net negative on employment (~2% decrease). That flies in the face of recent modelling AND real world studies - including some from other Stanford economists - which show a net zero or very small decrease (-0.1% to -0.3%), based on the first four to five years years of the ACA.

Now, I acknowledge that might change in the future. However, its also important to note the measured effect on employment is well below the CBO's projections of a ~1.0% employment contraction out to 2017 due to the ACA. That forecast been born up by the evidence.

If anyone can be bothered, here's some reading:

https://siepr.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/publications/17-022.pdf
https://www.urban.org/sites/default...has-the-aca-been-a-job-killer-2016-update.pdf
https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2015.0949

Also, there's a great warning from Health Affairs about jumping the gun in terms of research when looking at these papers:

The ACA is complex, with scores of provisions that impose major changes on health insurance, labor markets, and the national economy. It is going to take some time for a clear and fully accurate picture of all of these effects to emerge.

Placed in the appropriate context, research studies such as the two Health Affairs papers provide useful information. At a minimum, they make it clear that the forecasts from CBO and others which show the ACA will eventually reduce compensation and hours worked are far from certain. But it is also too early to conclude that those forecasts were wrong. That remains to be seen.
​

EDIT: Having cast a wider net, I see Paul Krugman agrees with me (or at least, my readings of research in the ACA & employment). Normally that means I'm about to get something screechingly wrong.

https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1307744767279804418

 

[morningstar2651]

There is a contribution from CBO in the report.

It's not a contribution, it's a couple of citations. The Congressional Budget Office was not involved with the creation of this report.