Biden DOJ sues Elon Musk

[Landon Caeli]

That's not true according to the DoJ. From one of the articles:

'It also alleges that in postings SpaceX put on job hunting sites and online forums, SpaceX employees specified available positions were only open to U.S. citizens. On applications, potential employees had to check a box indicating their citizenship status, which was then input into a database that managers and recruiters marked with rejection codes, such as "not authorized to work/ITAR ineligible," "does not meet basic qualifications" and "not U.S. citizen/green card." '

What the DOJ alleges is meaningless, if it hasn't been *proven*, and found to be true.

 

[Landon Caeli]

...The main takeaway here, should be the debate on whether the laws are just. In my opinion, American citizens should have *seniority* over non-citizens, and that a law that says otherwise, is a bad law.

Citizens first! Our country.

 

[iluvatar5150]

...Because there were no legal immigrants who were discriminated against at SpaceEx.

You know that asylees and refugees are here legally, right?

 

[JustOneWay]

...The main takeaway here, should be the debate on whether the laws are just. In my opinion, American citizens should have *seniority* over non-citizens, and that a law that says otherwise, is a bad law.

Citizens first! Our country.

Discrimination laws are just and righteous. America needs immigrants. Ameria was built by immigrants. America is different than the rest of the world, and you want America to be just like other countries. Sad.

10,000 immigrants, and you believe EVERY American who was hired were better than every one of those 10,000 immigrants.

 

[Bradskii]

What the DOJ alleges is meaningless, if it hasn't been *proven*, and found to be true.

Not yet. Quite right. But what Musk said was incorrect. If what he said was true, that they did discriminate, then the DoJ has a case.

 

[Bradskii]

Citizens first! Our country.

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. But don't give them a job. Oh, unless it's picking fruit or cleaninģ dishes. You know, the stuff that honest to God American citizens don't want to do.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. But don't give them a job. Oh, unless it's picking fruit or cleaninģ dishes. You know, the stuff that honest to God American citizens don't want to do.

If citizens don't have special privileges here, then being an American has no meaning.

Should union workers, or any employee for that matter, not move up based on their seniority? Or are we all replaceable "numbers"?

As a concept, let's think about it. Not only within the workplace, but within citizenship in general.

 

[Landon Caeli]

What do they call a child who has been abandoned by his father? Don't answer that! But that's how I feel, with our government taking in other people's kids over his own.

...The right thing to do, is to care for your own first. That's what is morally right.

 

[Hans Blaster]

If citizens don't have special privileges here, then being an American has no meaning.

We *do* have special privileges. We can vote for the government that writes the laws. We can get US Passports. We can apply for jobs that require security clearances. (Personally, I declined my opportunity, but I had it.)

Should union workers, or any employee for that matter, not move up based on their seniority? Or are we all replaceable "numbers"?

These are not the same. Seniority *at* work deals with things like who gets preferences in setting vacations, or opportunities to try new positions, etc. There are no legal distinctions between naturalized citizens, those born to immigrant parents, to immigrant grandparents, to immigrant great-grandparents, or those whose ancestors all lived in the US when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

As a concept, let's think about it. Not only within the workplace, but within citizenship in general.

We've had nativism for ca. 200 years . It's not new and gradiations of citizenship are just horrible ideas.

 

[Landon Caeli]

It looks to me, like we're heading to one world type stuff, not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but realistically, even some states are pushing toward non-citizens being able to vote...

So there really is this push to deny American citizens any more rights than non-citizens. It really won't mean anything to be "American" in the future.

...What are we shooting for 100 years from now? Is there an agenda? Or are we reactive to emotion, exclusively, in policy making?

 

[Hans Blaster]

It looks to me, like we're heading to one world type stuff,

Rights of immigrants and asylum seekers has nothing to do with global government.

not to sound like a conspiracy theorist,

Best plan - don't mention "one world type stuff"

but realistically, even some states are pushing toward non-citizens being able to vote...

Again, not related to any notion of global government. Non-citizen voting is related to local offices where it has been proposed or implemented. It used to be quite common. Back in my Great-great grandpappy's day voting for resident aliens was quite common. (The state may have allowed him to vote for president when they sent an agent down to Georgia for absentee voting in '64 and he was definitely not a citizen then.)

So there really is this push to deny American citizens any more rights than non-citizens. It really won't mean anything to be "American" in the future.

America is a nation-state and a land mass. Those that live here are Americans. I'd suggest reviewing the rights enumerated in the Constitution starting with amendement 1 and working down. You'll see a lot of references to "people" and "persons" and only to citizens in a few limited cases. The alien has just as much of a right against self-incrimination ("The 5th") as any citizen and it has been that way since 1791.

...What are we shooting for 100 years from now? Is there an agenda? Or are we reactive to emotion, exclusively, in policy making?

This thread is about the rights of asylum seekers to access employment opportunities. What emotion or agenda do you think is at play?

 

[BobRyan]

The US Justice Department has filed a lawsuit against SpaceX, the Elon Musk-run rocket and spacecraft company with extensive government contracts, for allegedly discriminating against refugees in its hiring practices.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/24/world/spacex-justice-department-lawsuit-hiring-scn/index.html

Elon was asked this 2016

Unfortunately, this is not up to us. U.S. government regulations make it hard to get a job in the U.S., but if you are working on rocket technology, that's considered advanced weapons technology.

So, even a normal work visa isn't sufficient unless you get special permission from the Secretary of Defense or the Secretary of State. So, I want to be clear this is not out of some desire of SpaceX to just hire people with green cards.

The DOJ is suing Spacex for not hiring people that the DOJ specifically prevents from working on advanced weapons technology .

Welcome to 2023.

He is sued if he doesn’t and is imprisoned if he does.

Thanks for posting that.

Your link says this -


====================================================== begin quote

" The US Justice Department has filed a lawsuit against SpaceX, the Elon Musk-run rocket and spacecraft company with extensive government contracts, for allegedly discriminating against refugees in its hiring practices.

The suit claims that “from at least September 2018 to May 2022, SpaceX routinely discouraged asylees and refugees from applying and refused to hire or consider them, because of their citizenship status, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA),” according to an August 24 DOJ news release.

It goes on to allege SpaceX falsely claimed in its job listings that only green card holders and United States citizens could work at the company because of federal export control laws.

There are specific laws — such as the International Traffic in Arms Regulations — that apply to companies manufacturing spacecraft and rockets and limit foreign nationals from accessing key information about the vehicles for national security reasons.

But the new lawsuit states that regulations such as ITAR do not prevent SpaceX from hiring refugees, whose “permission to live and work in the United States does not expire, and they stand on equal footing with U.S. citizens,” according to the DOJ."

=======================================================

On the one hand we DON't want China to steal all of our technology -- but then on the other hand they are saying "the requirement that someone must AT LEAST have a green card" to work in a high-tech sensitive field - is "too demanding"???

This sounds like another Afghanistan level blunder only without all those 10's of thousands of folks left behind for the Taliban to prey on.

There "was a time" when to get this sort of exemption from the common-sense must have green card rule - is that the highly specialized training, education, skill of the person that you are hiring is soooo extraordinary that it is difficult to find such skill/qualification in the US so then some leniency should be allowed the company to recruit a non-US citizen who has no green card. I know this from first-hand experience trying to get such persons hired in the US.

 

[Bradskii]

If citizens don't have special privileges here, then being an American has no meaning.

We all do. Excluding people applying for work for which they are qualified and legally allowed to work is not one of those privileges. The immigrant workforce is around 18% of the total. Do you want them all to stop working tomorrow? Or would you prefer them to work for a living and contribute to society? That's not a hypothetical question either. I'd like to know.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

This thread is about the rights of asylum seekers to access employment opportunities. What emotion or agenda do you think is at play?

Not even "asylum seekers" - the government's lawsuit is only in relation to people who have already been granted asylum or refugee status, not the million or so people waiting to have their asylum cases heard.

 

[rjs330]

Here's an idea. If you respond to a post by @JustOneWay which included a link to an article which explains how they did it, it might be worth you reading it like the rest of us did so that you'd know as well.

I mean, this isn't rocket science. Oh, wait...

Lol, I see what you did there. Honestly I just poked my head in here. I just find it interesting that everyone who goes against Biden gets investigated by the DOJ. Elon buys Twitter and doesn't ban the free speech that Biden demands and bammo, an investigation gets started.

Good way to try and get compliance though. Cooperate or face a DOJ investigation. We'll find something on you. Or at least acceuse you of something and you will have to pay an aweful lot of money to defend yourself.

Welcome to the new world.

 

[rjs330]

Okay I finally read the article. I think this is another Biden witch hunt. It says right in the article that he DOJ guidance is it is okay to hire and treat refugees like citizens. I would like to see the law that applies to that. That refugees are defacto citizens of the US. I don't know this sounds like the DOJ is targeting the company and I can give you two guesses as to why.

 

[Pommer]

Okay I finally read the article. I think this is another Biden witch hunt. It says right in the article that he DOJ guidance is it is okay to hire and treat refugees like citizens. I would like to see the law that applies to that. That refugees are defacto citizens of the US. I don't know this sounds like the DOJ is targeting the company and I can give you two guesses as to why.

The company is not conforming their hiring-practices to the Law of the Land?

 

[rjs330]

The company is not conforming their hiring-practices to the Law of the Land?

Is it the law of the land? Is it that clear? I'm not so sure. The article certainly didn't indicate that nor did it link to the specific laws in question.

 

[Bradskii]

Lol, I see what you did there.

Yeah, I told you to read the article so you wouldn't have to ask questions already answered within it.

Good way to try and get compliance though. Cooperate or face a DOJ investigation.

Good way to get people to comply with the law? By investigating them if it appears they broke it and charging them if it's proved true? I completely agree.

If they haven't broken the law, do you agree that there should be no punishment? Yeah, me too. But if they have broken the law, then do you agree that there should be some punishment? Yeah, me too.

Hey, we agreed on three things in a row.

 

[Bradskii]

Is it the law of the land? Is it that clear? I'm not so sure. The article certainly didn't indicate that nor did it link to the specific laws in question.

Took me all of 5 seconds: Immigration and Nationality Act | USCIS

Under a part of the Immigration and Nationality Act, the general rule is that your status as a refugee or asylee cannot prevent you from getting a job. If you see that an employer only wants to hire U.S. citizens or does not want to hire asylees or refugees, this may be illegal discrimination under this law at 8 U.S.C.

Here's the Act:

https://www.justice.gov/crt/case-document/file/1132566/download#:~:text=Under%20a%20part%20of%20the,this%20law%20at%208%20U.S.C.