Biblical Salvation

[Easystreet]

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[Easystreet]

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[CShephard53]

If you are other than then - go ahead and state your case for or against the OP. Why don't you lead the way in that I have already simply stated my position in the OP yet the Tulipologist, Calvinist, and RT can only slam and bob and weave. Instead of engaging the OP they attract me. So if you are pure and above reproach then deal with the OP.

I don't take challenges. Sorry. That's just not a good reason for me to waste my time here.

 

[DeaconDean]

C- Conditional Salvation
Mark 1:14. Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15. and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."
Luke 15:7. "I tell you that in the same way, there will be {more} joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Acts 17: 30. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all {people} everywhere should repent,
II Peter 3: 9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Acts 16: 30. and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31. They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Romans 4:5. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Romans 10:9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
I Corinthians 1:21. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.


U- Unlimited Atonement
John 1: 4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6. There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
John 3:16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. )
John 12:32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.";
John 12:47. "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
I Timothy 2: 6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time.
I Timothy 4:10. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
Hebrews 2:9. But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, {namely,} Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
II Peter 2:1. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
I John 2: 2. and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the whole world


R- Resistible Grace
Acts 28: 24. Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.
Acts 17:0. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all {people} everywhere should repent,
John 5:40. and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
II Peter 3:9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Luke 7:30. But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
Acts 7:51. "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
Matthew 23:37. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
John 7:17. "If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or {whether} I speak from Myself.


E - Eternal Security
John 10:9. "My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father's hand. 30. "I and the Father are one."
John 6:39. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day
John 14:16. "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
II Corinthians 1: 22. who also sealed us and gave {us} the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
Ephesians 4:30. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption
Philippians 1: 6. {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Hebrews 7:25. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
I Peter 1: 5. who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


D- Delivered from being Dead in Trespasses and sin
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, 7. so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {salvation is} the gift of God; 9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Romans 5: 20. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21. so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with {Him,} in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin. 11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 22. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.23. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8: 10. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
II Corinthians 5: 19. namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
I Corinthians 15:56. The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57. but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 3:22. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe
Ephesians 1: 19. namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Why do you insist on spamming the same ________ over and over again?

You have one thread on this already:

http://foru.ms/t6152582-cured-the-bible-way-truth.html

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Easystreet]

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[Easystreet]

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[Easystreet]

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[Easystreet]

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[DeaconDean]

Find a hole to craw into and indulge in your false doctrine.

If you had anything worthy to say engage the passages in the OP. The problem is that you don't and can't because they speak for themselves.

Congrads , that was a very Christian thing to say.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Gwenyfur]

This is not only getting redundant...but annoying.

Play nice or we'll have to close this playground as well​

 

[nobdysfool]

Here is an interesting comment by:

No consideration of the accuracy of the quote, it's posted because it speaks evil of Calvinism, and by golly, that's good enough for .

 

[Easystreet]

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[Jipsah]

I see Calvinism, TULIPOLOGY and RT as false.

Let's start from baseline, then. You have said before, if I'm not too mistaken, that the idea of predestination is unscriptural. We Calvinists believe that since predestination is explicitly spoken of in Scriptural, then not only is it Scriptural, it's unarguably true.

Here's the Scripture that Free Willies like least, so we may as well go there at once:

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Now I'm going to start with two assumptions here. The first is that since this letter has been translated from the Greek into English by a great variety of people who had nothing in common except that they were presumably scholars of the Greek language, and since they have, at least in every translation that I've read, said pretty much the same thing, that the English translation used here won't benefit any from analysis by rank amateurs like ourselves. The second assumption is that the English words used here conform to standard dictionary definitions and are not subject to any personal re-interpretation. If we can't agree on that then there's no real basis for discussion. If either side has to resort to the "it doesn't really mean what it says" schtick, then they have, de facto, given up the argument and reduced themselves to the level of "neener neener, nyaah nyaah". Agreed?

Let's look at verse 3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

I'll expect that you'll agree that what is being said here is that God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings. That's an English Grammar 101 kinda thing. "[God] hath blessed us", subject, verb, object. Piece of cake. The first prepositional phrase shows what He has blessed us with - "all spiritual blessings". The next two prepositional phrases tell us that we've been blessed with these blessings "in heavenly places" and "in Christ". These phrases add detail and precision to the clause without altering the basic meaning, that God has blessed us. Agreed?

Now comes the first real bone of contention:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

As in verse 3, we're presented with something that God, as subject, has done to us as object, with prepositional phrases to provide detail. "He hath chosen us", subject, verb object", "in Him", where, "before the foundation of the world", when. Plain, simple English.

So, here we have the basis of the first disagreement between Calvinists and Free Willies. We Calvinists say that the Bible says that, just as God blessed us in verse 3, that He has chosen us before the foundation of the world in verse 4. Free Willies say that, yes, He blessed us in verse 3, but He didn't choose us in verse 4, He actually chose our Lord. The claim that the prepositional phrase "in Him" is actually the object of the verb phrase "hath chosen", and thus the apparent object, "us", is redundant. Either that, of they use the novel construct of making the object "us in Him", which is, to say the least, unique.

But what we have here is, in plain, that Calvinists look at the Scripture, as written, and say "Amen", while the Free Willies look at it and say "No, that isn't what it means at all." and then in the same breath claim that the Calvinist belief that God has chosen us before the foundation of the world as "unscriptural". Doublethink? Where's Winston Smith when we need him?

But it only gets worse:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Free Willies explicitly deny that God has predestined anyone, and tend to speak scornfully of the idea. Yet the Bible explicitly states that He has. The FWs take the tack of tossing aside the word "predestine" (or "predestinate" as King James has it), and mentally replacing it with "foreknow". They have no problem with God having foreknowledge (most of the time, anyway; some hyper-Willies feel the need to redefine the word or deny it altogether as being unfair), but the idea of God actually making something happen is just too much.

To make it that much worse for them, not only does it say that God has predestined us, but verse 6 says that He has made us accepted in the Beloved. The basis of Free Willy soteriology, repeated ad infinitum in this forum, is that God has chosen us based on merits of ours that He either foreknew or knows from hindsight. This flies in the fact of the clear statement in this verse that God Himself has made us accepted.

Calvinists, of course, have no problem with this Scripture, and in fact believe it just as it's written. Which once again makes it more than ironic that FWs would make the charge that our doctrine is "unscriptural", when it is they who balk at taking the Bible at what it says, at least in these cases.

Verse 11 would, if left to stand on its own, would drive a stake into the heart of Free Willy soteriology, saying as it does that "we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will". There's nothing at all left for the Willies to do but shout "NO!, predestine does mean predestine, it has to mean something else!" Then they have to set about finding some new and entertaining way of redefining "predestine", one that leaves their dogma intact. Normal lexicons and English dictionaries are no help, so they often resort to "the Greek says..." and then inserting a translation that would make any genuine Greek scholar's gorge rise, or resorting to the aforementioned "it really means "foreknow". One is as disingenuous, if not to say dishonest, as the other.

So it appears that the Free Willy charge that Calvniism is unscriptural is not only baseless, but is in fact 180 degrees from the truth. For we see that, while Calvinists are willing (freely willing, at that) to accept the Scripture as being authoritative as written, Free Willies will accept it only after it has been modified to make it appear to support their doctrine.

That being the case only an examination of the facts remains.

The post above, I think, begins that process quite nicely.

Many of the proponents of the three are Cray babies, whiners, and just can't handle someone being strongly apposed to their views (false doctrines).

That is, of course, as may be. I worked with a Cray XMP myself back in the day. But, as I have amply demonstrated above, the charge that Calvinist doctrine
is "unscriptural" while Free Wille doctrine is not, is standing things on their heads. Free Willies are forced to deny, ignore, redefine, and generally mutilate what the Scripture actually says in order to try and preserve their doctrine, while we of the RT persuasion are altogether content to let God's Word stand as written.

 

[Jipsah]

IT IS CURED

I.E., Free Willy.

CURED IS THE TRUTH, 100 GOD'S WORD

Only 100? The rest, I assume, may be doctored as necessary.

 

[Jipsah]

Here is an interesting comment by:

So this old boy was Free Willy too, eh? Sonuvagun. He probably didn't know any better.

 

[CShephard53]

In that case don't complain. You criticize and then when challenged you do exactly what you complain about.

Sounds to me like you have a problem practicing what you preach.

In this you have not only opened up the issue but you have also stuck your foot in your mouth by becoming what you are accusing.

Excuse me? I've said to the both of you to quit with the attacks on persons, and yet you're continuing. You're making yourselves look illogical.

And I'm not being a hypocrite here. Posting evidence against either of your arguments would be pointless, seeing as you'd both attack my person. Your track record precedes you. If you disagree with me, it would be logical for me to assume that you'd attack me given your previous posts. And your challenge isn't much of a challenge to me. I see no reasons to take your challenge, and it seems to me that your challenge was based mostly on emotion rather than an interest in hearing my arguments.

So quit ripping on people, it's that simple.

 

[Easystreet]

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[Bob L]

Jispah, Ephesians Chapter 1 is where the reformers (read Calvinists, Arminians) went wrong. Paul is actually arguing AGAINST one specific group being predestined here. He is actually saying that all people are predestined. As any contemporary Jewish scholar would attest, Jews considered themselves God's chosen predestined people. Gentiles were, sorry, just going to Hell. No rhyme or reason to it, God just said so. (Sound like Calvinism to you?) But, aha!, along came Jesus and everything got turned upside down! Now, as Paul clearly saw, salvation was not just for the Jew! Read the rest of Ephesians and Romans for that matter.

In Ephesians 1 Paul is expressing that we also (kai in the Greek) were chosen. Whereas the Jews were God's natural sons, directly selected by Him in the OT, we (meaning the Gentiles) were selected to be adopted sons through Christ.

You see, so Ephesians is not a doxology of predestination at all, wiping out all of Calvinism and Arminiansm, but a doxology of anti-predestination.

 

[Easystreet]

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[nobdysfool]

Deleted.