Biblical Evidence For 31 AD Crucifixion

EclipseEventSigns

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Why does something as Holy as the Bible need to talk about irrelevant things that God chose not to reveal to the world about the life of Jesus before,while, and after he began his ministry? Even the Bible says that all of Jesus's ministry isn't written down in the Bible. The apostles wrote about the important parts and not the trivial details.


Any and all of Jesus's life (aside from when he was 13 and Mary and Joseph found him in a synagogue) cannot be proven by the Bible. Instead they have been passed down through the ages. Like for instance that fact that he was a carpenter before he started his ministry. The fact that he started his ministry at 30 and died 3 years later. The day of Christmas (which may or may not have been when he was born. The apostles didn't think his actual birthday was important enough to write about) the fact that after Jesus died John took care of his mother and father. The fact that Jesus had brothers and sisters and therefore Mary was not a Virgin her whole life.


All of those facts have been passed down. That's how we know they're true. That and archeologists have found evidence that they are true.

Just like you would be an idiot for saying that Jesus never existed you would be an idiot for not accepting scientific evidence and things that were passed down over the last 2,000 years. It doesn't matter that these things are not in the Bible because the Bible is God's gift to man and everything that's in the Bible are things that God wants man to know without a shadow of a doubt because the Bible is the very words of God.
Not sure what your point actually is. But nothing about tradition turns out to be correct. NOTHING. Not a thing. It's very important to know the truth because Messiah Jesus fulfilled prophecy spoken in the Old Testament. If you can't verify the facts about His life, then prophecy does not prove anything. It is very relevant.
 
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AFrazier

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Unfortunately everything you wrote about a Friday date is just not possible. The Gospels just do not support it. Historical evidence just does not support it. Botanical evidence does not support it. Geological evidence does not support it. Orbital mechanics does not support it. Ancient Jewish Mishnah does not support it. And there's much more evidence that does not support it. It's actually very easy to prove that it could not have been Friday. Even Jesus' very words "three days and three nights" immediately disqualify Friday.
Your whole statement here is entirely false. A Wednesday crucifixion is incorrect.
 
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AFrazier

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Concerning the alleged earlier reign of Tiberius, I have written the following in the book I'm working on:

Now, one commonly expressed idea concerns an alleged earlier reckoning of Tiberius’ reign. Per the histories of Tacitus, Suetonius, and Velleius Paterculus, we know that Tiberius received, by vote of the Senate, an equal authority with Augustus over the provinces, essentially conferring on him a co-regency, or a “co-reign” as some are wont to suggest.[1] Chronologically speaking, scholars have long-since associated the granting of this co-regency with Tiberius’ triumphal celebration following his return from Germany in late 11 CE. Although none of the mentioned historians explicitly state that the Senate granted the co-regency at that time, there is, arguably, a chronological link between the events in Suetonius’ narrative.[2] Thus, relative to the date of Tiberius’ triumph, the co-regency has been generally deduced to 12 CE.[3] For those advocating an earlier starting point for Tiberius’ reign, this alternate reckoning effectively shifts Tiberius’ fifteenth year to 26 CE, which is in more ready alignment with Jesus’ thirtieth year according to the more popular 5 BCE nativity hypothesis. The matter-of-factness of this position, and the impetus behind it, is, for example, both casually and plainly stated by Edersheim.[4]

"It was, according to St. Luke’s exact statement, in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar—reckoning, as provincials would do, from his co-regency with Augustus (which commenced two years before his sole reign), in the year 26 A.D. According to our former computation, Jesus would then be in His thirtieth year."[5]

However, as Harold Hoehner commented, “this method is to be rejected because there is no evidence, either from historical documents or coins, for its employment, whereas there is abundant evidence that Tiberius reckoned his first year after the death of Augustus. Any theory that has to distort the normal sense of the text is already suspect.”[6]

I have long since agreed with this point of view. The notion of an earlier reckoning for the reign of Tiberius is based upon the conspicuous need to bring Tiberius’ fifteenth year of reign into harmony with a thirty-year-old Jesus in 26 CE. Apart from this synchronistic necessity, there would be no valid reason to even consider shifting Tiberius’ reign as described, much less applying or dogmatizing the shift. We have no evidence whatsoever of anyone counting the reign of Tiberius from his co-regency with Augustus, and no precedent to believe that Luke was using such an alternative dating paradigm. Tiberius’ reign was counted from the death of Augustus, and differs in the particulars only as it concerns the geographical regions and cultures, and the various methods of regnal counting. Someone in Alexandria might count his reign from September of 14 CE. A Roman might count it from January of 15 CE. Jews would count it from Nisan (March to April) of 14 CE. However, we have no evidence of any region, at any time, counting his reign from 12 CE as an offshoot of the standard reckoning.

To the contrary, all the evidence we have implies that the points of accession for the emperors, including that of Tiberius, were common knowledge throughout the empire and reckoned from the same points universally. As it concerns Tiberius, although this evidence has already been given, let me restate that we have numismatic evidence that shows Tiberius’ first year of reign coincident to the 45th year of the Actian Era, and his third to the 47th year.[7] Tacitus puts his ninth year in the year of the consuls Gaius Asinius and Gaius Antistius, or 23 CE, while Suetonius reckons his twenty-third year to 37 CE, in the consulship of Gnaeus Acerronius Proculus and Gaius Pontius Nigrinus.[8]

It should also be noted that Josephus records that Tiberius reigned twenty-two years, whereas Philo remarks that Tiberius was emperor during three and twenty years.[9] In the former case, Josephus is referring to his regnal years, from 14 CE through 36 CE, with his final year left incomplete in the manner of Jewish regnal counting. In the latter instance, Philo is commenting on inclusive Jewish calendar years from 14/15 CE through 36/37 CE. Thus, he reigned twenty-two regnal years over the span of twenty-three Jewish calendar years, the relevance here being that his reign in both testimonies ends with his death in 37 CE, demonstrating retrogressively a starting point of 14 CE, not 12 CE.

In all instances, whether it be Suetonius and Tacitus speaking as Romans, or Josephus and Philo speaking as Jews, the testimony is the same. Tiberius’ reign began with the death of Augustus in 14 CE, and differs from one region to the next only insomuch as to say that the calendar and regnal systems each function in their own unique way.

Given the universal understanding of Tiberius’ reign throughout the empire, there is simply no precedent to believe that Luke, and Luke alone, is dating Tiberius’ reign according to some enigmatic dating system that begins two or more years earlier than any other dating system in the Roman empire. There’s no proof that he’s doing it, no precedent to believe he would do it, and no documentation of anyone else doing it. The idea is, in every way, a flight of fancy, and has no foundation in fact.

Furthermore, the argument itself hinges on the idea that the Senate voted Tiberius the co-regency with Augustus in 12 CE.[10] The chronology of the event is figured according to Suetonius, who, seemingly in context of Tiberius’ return from Germany, says that the consuls caused the law for his co-regency to be passed “soon after.” As the argument goes, if the consuls passed this law “soon after” he returned from Germany in 11 CE, then it is not unreasonable to suggest that it occurred in the vicinity of 11 CE or 12 CE.[11]

However, in its more direct and immediate context, Suetonius also said that Tiberius was given this joint authority so he would have equal authority over the provinces while conducting the census with Augustus. It was for that reason that the consuls caused the law to be passed, granting him joint governance over the provinces, and the passing of the law was in a chronological proximity to the lustral ceremonies and Tiberius setting out for Illyricum immediately afterwards.[12]

Since the consuls caused a law to be passed soon after this that he should govern the provinces jointly with Augustus and hold the census with him, he set out for Illyricum on the conclusion of the lustral ceremonies; but he was at once recalled, and finding Augustus in his last illness but still alive, he spent an entire day with him in private.

Ergo, the consuls who passed the law were the consuls during the year of the lustrum. The lustrum, according to Augustus himself, occurred in 14 CE, which was, consequently, also the year he died.[13] Therefore, any co-reign, co-princeps, etc., would actually be coincident to 14 CE rather than 12 CE, confirming the succession in 14 CE, even counted from the point of their joint administration.

And in the overall treatment of this topic, we shouldn’t let Pontius Pilate fall by the wayside. Luke states that it was the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, with Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea.[14] Pilate governed Judea over the course of ten years. Having been dismissed within ninety days of Tiberius’ death, his final calendar year in Judea, as previously discussed, was 36/37, which puts his arrival in Judaea in 27 CE. That’s a year later than the fifteenth year of Tiberius by an ante-dated reign, as figured by the presumed co-reign in 12 CE.

Now, alternately, one could argue that the joint reign with Augustus centers around Tiberius being given the tribunician authority in 13 CE, when Lucius Munatius and Gaius Silius were consuls, but this was not the first time Tiberius had been given such authority. If such were the standard for counting his reign, we could go back as far as 6 BCE when he was first given the tribunician authority, or a little later in 4 CE, when he not only received said authority for an additional ten years, but was also adopted by Augustus.[15]

Vardaman, in fact, makes an argument for this very year, based upon these same points of fact. He offers both the 4 CE solution, beginning with Tiberius’ adoption and proconsular imperium, as well as a speculation on the possibility of an epigraphic misreading of eta iota for beta, B being mistaken for an EI, suggesting that Luke originally wrote, “year 2.”[16]

Nevertheless, we still have no precedent to assume that Luke is counting from some point other than the rest of the Roman empire. Despite how clever one argument or another may be, there has to be a precedent. Luke’s intent is to give his reader an intelligible date. Given this logical fact, it’s unreasonable to conclude that he was counting from any point other than the rest of the civilized world at the time. Thus, the idea of an earlier reign of Tiberius, particularly based on a joint administration with Augustus, is entirely without merit.

Furthermore, any notions of antedating, as some would speculate to have taken place, are likewise robbed of any credibility relative to the evidence. Rulers were directly responsible for the antedating of their reigns, and often did it for political gain or advantage. The numismatic evidence contradicts any such practice where Tiberius is concerned.

Therefore, all things considered, the hypothesis for an earlier reign of Tiberius should be dismissed.


[1]. Suet. Tib. 21; Tac. Ann. 1.3; Vell. Pat. 2.121.1.
[2]. Suet. Tib. 20-21.
[3]. Suet. Tib. 20. The celebration of Tiberius’ triumph is properly in the context of 11 CE, not 12 CE (Mommsen, Römisches Staatsrecht, 2.2, 1101, n. 2, 1877 edn.). Tiberius celebrated his triumph on October 23rd, prior to Germanicus’ consulship in 12 CE (Fasti Praenestini, in Inscr. Ital. 13.2 17, 134-135; Dio Cass. 56.25.2, 56.26.1). Given the time of year, if the Senate voted him this authority in the vicinity of his triumph, it’s debatable whether it happened before the end of that current year, or whether it happened at the beginning of the new year, giving us the leeway of 11 CE or 12 CE for the granting of the co-regency under these suggested circumstances.
[4]. Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, 183, 193.
[5]. Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, 183.
[6]. Hoehner, Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ, 31-2.
[7]. McAlee 214; RPC I 4270, 4330; BMC Galatia 33, 150; SNG Cop 402. The specimens are respectively dated A / EM and Γ / ZM.
[8]. Tac. Ann. 4.1; Suet. Tib. 73.
[9]. Joseph. AJ 18.177; Philo Leg. 298.
[10]. Finegan, Handbook of Biblical Chronology, 330; Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, 183.
[11]. Suet. Tib. 20-21; Fasti Praenestini, in Inscr. Ital. 13.2 17, 134-135; Dio Cass. 56.25.2, 56.26.1.
[12]. Suet. Tib. 21.1.
[13]. Mon. Anc. 8.
[14]. Lk. 3:1.
[15]. Dio Cass. 56.28.1, 55.9.1-4, 55.13.1a; Vell. Pat. 2.103; cf. Inscr. Ital. 13.2, Fasti Amiternini (= CIL 1², p. 320).
[16]. Vardaman, Jesus’ Life: A New Chronology, in CKC, 58-60.
 
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AFrazier

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I've just released a new video that goes through all the evidence that Messiah Jesus began His ministry in 29 AD, preached and performed miracles for just over 2 years and was crucified April 25, 31 AD and resurrected exactly 3 days and 3 nights later.

The challenge still stands for anyone to show anything that is inaccurate or false about any content. It's been over 7 years now since I released this information to the public and no one has been able to find fault with anything. It's been over 15 years since I started contacting well-known Bible teachers, pastors and prophecy experts. No one has responded with any issues so far.

I have this to say . . . The conclusions you've reached are easily refutable. That part isn't in question. What's in question is whether you're objective enough to accept the evidence when it's presented to you. I've had many debates with people on this forum, and on others, concerning the topics of New Testament chronology. And what I usually find is stubborn people who won't acknowledge even the simplest statements of fact.

For example:

Mark and Luke both explicitly state that the morning/afternoon preceding the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover. Without question, it is the 14th day of Nisan. It's not debatable. Two gospels say it directly, and third alludes to it, saying that it was the protos of unleavened, or the very first day of unleavened bread, which is the 14th, since all leaven had to be removed and burned by noon, before the sacrifices in the early afternoon. Jesus sent two disciples, Peter and John, to secure a room, prepare the passover, and make ready for them. The two disciples "made ready the passover," and at evening, Jesus and the rest joined them.

Given this direct evidence, we have three gospels telling us that the last supper was on the evening of the 14th, on the passover, necessarily placing the crucifixion on the 15th. John's gospel, which appears to place the crucifixion on the 14th, is actually referring to the hagigah when it says the priests wanted to eat the passover.

The notion of a Wednesday crucifixion hinges on the proposition that the "sabbath" following the crucifixion was of the holiday variety; viz., the holiday sabbath of the 15th of Nisan. Ergo, a Wednesday crucifixion hypothesis requires a Nisan 14th crucifixion in order to have any validity. If the crucifixion occurred on the 15th, the only possible sabbath that could follow the crucifixion is Saturday, making the crucifixion a Friday.

It's also worth noting that if you chronicle the days of Passion week, knowing what events transpired over the course of the specific days, if we merely shift that paradigm so that the days begin on a different weekday to allow the eighth day (when he was crucified) to fall on Wednesday instead of Friday, a certain absurdity becomes readily apparent. Regardless of the weekdays, or even the dates, the physical days and their corresponding events occurred in a specific order. He rode through Jericho on the first day. He arrived in Bethany on the second day. He rode into Jerusalem the third day. He drove out the money-changers and merchants on the fourth day. He delivered the infamous woes, and later the Olivet Discourse on the fifth day. He had supper at the house of Simon on the sixth day. He had his Last Supper on the seventh day. Then he was crucified on the eighth day. These events and their chronology are not disputable.

If we shift the events to synchronize the eighth day, when he was crucified, with Wednesday, Nisan 14th according to a Reconstructionist view, we encounter the following problem:

A Wednesday crucifixion would have had Jesus driving out the merchants and money-changers on Saturday, who would have been engaged in commerce in the temple complex on the Sabbath. This had been strictly prohibited since the time of Nehemiah.[1] The Sabbath laws were so strict that when the Passover fell on the Sabbath, the people wouldn’t even carry the knife they intended to use for the sacrifice. They would stick it through the wool of the lamb. The idea that commerce was taking place on the Sabbath in the temple complex is just ridiculous. If one reads enough Jewish literature, it becomes abundantly clear just how ludicrous such a notion really is.

You say, "no one has been able to find fault with anything," but is that actually true? Or have you been presented with evidence you've simply ignored? I've given you evidence. What are you going to do with it? Ignore it? Try and argue it away? Or will you be objective, like a proper academic would be, and reevaluate your position?

[1]. Nehemiah 13:15-22; Shabbath 148b.
 
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AFrazier

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I would like to offer some historical information that helps in constructing a chronology of the life of Jesus. While it is true that Augustus died in A.D. 14, Tiberius actually began his reign as co-regent in A.D. 12. This has been known and taken into consideration by historians and used to calculate the traditional A.D. 30 date for the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

It has only been in recent years, with the advent of the new science of archaeology, that coins have been discovered that support this traditional view and show that the reign of Tiberius was reckoned from his co-regency with Augustus beginning September A.D. 12.

Augustus died in August A.D. 14 as you noted, and Tiberius immediately appointed Gratus as Prefect of Judea to replace Rufus (who had been Augustus' appointee), and in the same year Gratus minted coins with Tiberius' image that have the LB inscription, meaning the second year of Tiberius' reign. (Front and reverse of Gratus LB coin: minted A.D. 14, LB=Year 2 of Tiberius)

View attachment 331815

The chart below shows, according to the numismatic evidence, that the 15th year of Tiberius would have fallen from September A.D. 26 to September A.D. 27, historically held as the year Jesus began his ministry. This would place the Crucifixion of Jesus in the 18th year of Tiberius, A.D. 30.

View attachment 331816

I hope this will be helpful.
In Christ,
Deborah~
I know this is an old post, but if anyone is still watching it, this coin does not specify a 14 CE minting. It only designates it to the second year of TIB KAICAP, or Tiberius Caesar. There are other coins that give us the information to properly triangulate the dating. RPC 4270 and RPC 4330 both give the year of reign and the Actian year, A EM and Γ ZM respectively, placing Tiberius' first year of reign in 15 CE and his third in 17 CE.

RPC 4270 - 4 (Tiberius A EM).jpg

RPC I 4330 - 1 (Tiberius G ZM).jpg
 
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The Liturgist

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I would like to offer some historical information that helps in constructing a chronology of the life of Jesus. While it is true that Augustus died in A.D. 14, Tiberius actually began his reign as co-regent in A.D. 12. This has been known and taken into consideration by historians and used to calculate the traditional A.D. 30 date for the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

It has only been in recent years, with the advent of the new science of archaeology, that coins have been discovered that support this traditional view and show that the reign of Tiberius was reckoned from his co-regency with Augustus beginning September A.D. 12.

Augustus died in August A.D. 14 as you noted, and Tiberius immediately appointed Gratus as Prefect of Judea to replace Rufus (who had been Augustus' appointee), and in the same year Gratus minted coins with Tiberius' image that have the LB inscription, meaning the second year of Tiberius' reign. (Front and reverse of Gratus LB coin: minted A.D. 14, LB=Year 2 of Tiberius)

View attachment 331815

The chart below shows, according to the numismatic evidence, that the 15th year of Tiberius would have fallen from September A.D. 26 to September A.D. 27, historically held as the year Jesus began his ministry. This would place the Crucifixion of Jesus in the 18th year of Tiberius, A.D. 30.

View attachment 331816

I hope this will be helpful.
In Christ,
Deborah~

That is helpful, thank you!
 
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The Liturgist

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Not sure what your point actually is. But nothing about tradition turns out to be correct. NOTHING. Not a thing. It's very important to know the truth because Messiah Jesus fulfilled prophecy spoken in the Old Testament. If you can't verify the facts about His life, then prophecy does not prove anything. It is very relevant.

So what New Testament books are canonical, then? You can’t use the 27 book canon since that is Tradition, having been introduced in the Egyptian church by St. Athanasius the Bishop of Alexandria around 360 AD, and subsequently accepted by the other ancient churches. The New Testament lacks a table of contents.

For that matter, so does the Old Testament.
 
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Simon_Templar

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I've always heard that Jesus was 30 years old when He began His ministry, He preached and granted miracles for 3 1/2 years, and was then crucified and resurrected in April 33 AD. I trusted that scholars had investigated all of this. I knew there were other theories but since they aren't popular, then there was nothing to them.

Recently I decided to really look into the matter. I was shocked at what I discovered. Really shocked. The date markers in the Gospels do not corroborate any of the common understanding - what most pastors and Sunday School teachers continually state.

Starting to learn stuff for yourself is great, but you need to learn how to learn. It is not enough to just pick out a few sources, or look at a few data points and then just come to a conclusion that you demand everyone agree with. Further you have to learn how to analyze data to be clear about what it says and what it does not say, then you have to learn how to construct logically valid inferences and conclusions.

You are missing lots of data that contradicts your viewpoints here, and your logic also just doesn't follow.

Messiah Jesus actually began His ministry in early spring 29 AD. He ministered for just over 2 years. He was crucified and resurrected on April 25, 31 AD.

This claim is made, but never proved, and in fact, there is no way to prove it. I'll illustrate why in responding to your data points below.


Evidence:
1. John the Baptizer
-started his ministry Luke 3:1-2
-it was in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar

"and in 14 CE, on August 19, Augustus died. Tiberius, now supreme, played politics with the Senate and did not allow it to name him emperor for almost a month, but on September 17 he succeeded to the principate. He was 54 years old."

-15th year of Tiberius started in September, 28 AD

John the Baptist started his ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius. We know that Tiberius was acclaimed by the Senate in September of 14 AD. We do not know, however, whether his regnal years were reckoned from September of 14, or from January 1st (Roman New Year) of 15 AD

Thus, based on Luke's statement it is possible that John began his ministry anywhere from September of AD 14, to December of AD 19, all of that time could be reckoned as the 15th year of Tiberius.

Moreover, we don't know how long into John's ministry Jesus was baptized by John. As such, it is impossible to fix a date for the beginning of Jesus' ministry based on the beginning of John's ministry.

The beginning of John's ministry sets the earliest date possible for Jesus, because Jesus had to begin his ministry after John. It however, tells us nothing about precisely what year after John began, Jesus was baptized by him.



2. The Timeline in John's Gospel
Late winter/early spring 29 AD
-John the baptizer (John 1)
-in Bethany, across the Jordan (John 1:28)
-Jesus comes to the Jordan
-John tells of a previous visit when Jesus was baptized (John 1:32)
-Jesus immediately starts calling disciples

You are correct that Jesus was baptized in the late winter / early spring. It was probably about 2 months before the Passover feast, based on John's timeline.

However, it is unlikely that this happened in the first year of John the Baptists' ministry based on what the Gospels tell us. Luke tells us that John travelled all around the region, all of the Gospels tell us that John had become so popular that he was drawing massive crowds from the entire region, Judea, Jerusalem, and all around the Jordan (includes Galilee and possibly even the Decapolis etc.

While it is not impossible (don't stretch facts to say more than they do), it seems unlikely that John amassed such fame and popularity in less than 6 months. Especially in a time before mass communication and long distance communication.

Thus it seems likely that he had been preaching for more than a year, possibly even up to two. Thus, if Tiberius regnal years began in September of 28, that would mean it is pretty unlikely that Jesus began his ministry only 4 months later. Much more likely, in my opinion, is that it was in February of 30 AD or possibly even 31 AD, though I think that would push the crucifixion too late into a timeline that doesn't match up well.

But again the main point here is this. We don't know, because we are never told. There is some circumstantial evidence as I have outlined above, but nothing definitive. Thus to draw definitively conclusions is unwise.

Also, you list 3 Passovers, but biblical scholars are divided on whether Jesus attended 3 Passovers or 4. There is an unnamed feast in John 5, and some there is evidence in the synoptic gospels for a possible 4th Passover.

Consequently we don't actually know whether Jesus' ministry lasted just over 2 years, or just over 3. Again, the evidence available is not definitive.

The simple fact is that it is not possible to definitively set the date of the crucifixion based on the evidence we have. However, the best evidence available seems to point to April 3 AD 33.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Here's a list of some accepted beliefs that are based on provable error (not in any particular order).
1. That Messiah Jesus was born in 1 BC. because the calendar change from BC and AD was based on His year of birth. A lot of people now realize this is now incorrect, which is good.

Most scholars have believed Jesus was born around 4 BC for a long time. However, in actual fact, more evidence has come up in the last few decades that has once again made a date closer to 1 BC possible again.

2. That Messiah Jesus was born on Dec 25th. Again, a lot of people now realize this is incorrect. Yet, church tradition is so strong that no one is willing to change this and remove the pagan influence in Christianity.

The date of Christmas has literally nothing to do with paganism. I can forgive people this particular bit of historical ignorance because I know that it has been taught for a long time and secular sources also pick it up and uncritically run with it. Yet it is irritating because I run into this all the time.

The date of Christmas was fixed after the date of the Annunciation (the conception of Jesus). It was widely believed among early Christians that the world was created on March 25th, and that Jesus was crucified on March 25th. As a result it came to be believed, as early as the 2nd century that Jesus was also conceived on Marth 25th. The date of Christmas was fixed on December 25th, because it is 9 months after March 25th.


3. That Messiah Jesus was crucified on a Friday because the Gospels say it was the day before the Sabbath.
4. That the crucifixion was in 33 AD because that's when the modern Jewish calendar shows a Friday matching Nisan 14 (Passover).
5. That Easter reflects the actual time of the month and historically accurate series of events of the Messiah's final week

Your case for these points is extremely poor and is easily dismantled (as it has been in this thread)

6. That Anderson's/Hoehner's interpretation of the 70 Weeks in Daniel is based on 360 day Jewish years and there are exactly a certain number of days to the Triumphal Entry of Messiah Jesus.

Not sure what this has to do with anything, but since most people's views on prophecy are highly suspect, sure, why not.

7. That Messiah Jesus was 30 years old when He began His ministry

People suffer from the same lack of accuracy and attention to detail that you have exhibited. What the Gospel says is that he was "about thirty". So he was somewhere near the age of 30.

8. That the Jewish exile in Babylon was 70 years long

This all depends on what dates you pick. Most of the time the dates that people pick regarding the exile and Daniels 70 7's are arbitrarily chosen to fit their particular scheme.

9. That the Judean population in the 1st century spoke Greek as their common language. Or even that they spoke Hebrew as their common language.

I don't really know anyone who thinks this. Certainly I've never met a well educated person who believes this. No scholar promotes this.

10. That the Koine Greek of the New Testament is written in pristine, perfectly grammatically correct Greek
11. That there is some way to determine what the original New Testament authors' actually wrote to be found in the various Greek manuscripts
12. That some of the strange and problematic sayings of Messiah Jesus found in the Gospels are actually what He said - we just don't know how to properly understand and interpret them

I get the impression that you have never actually interacted with a real biblical scholar.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Here's a list of some accepted beliefs that are based on provable error (not in any particular order).
1. That Messiah Jesus was born in 1 BC. because the calendar change from BC and AD was based on His year of birth. A lot of people now realize this is now incorrect, which is good.

Most scholars have believed Jesus was born around 4 BC for a long time. However, in actual fact, more evidence has come up in the last few decades that has once again made a date closer to 1 BC possible again.


2. That Messiah Jesus was born on Dec 25th. Again, a lot of people now realize this is incorrect. Yet, church tradition is so strong that no one is willing to change this and remove the pagan influence in Christianity.

The date of Christmas has literally nothing to do with paganism. It is not based on Saturnalia, it is not based on Sol Invictus, this is all nonsense devoid of historical merit. I can forgive people this particular bit of historical ignorance because I know that it has been taught for a long time and secular sources also pick it up and uncritically run with it. Yet it is irritating because I run into this all the time.

The date of Christmas was fixed after the date of the Annunciation (the conception of Jesus). It was widely believed among early Christians that the world was created on March 25th, and that Jesus was crucified on March 25th. As a result it came to be believed, as early as the 2nd century that Jesus was also conceived on Marth 25th. The date of Christmas was fixed on December 25th, because it is 9 months after March 25th.

Further, while it is impossible to entirely accurately fix the date of Jesus birth based on the available evidence. The evidence does essentially leave us two possibilities, one of which is late December. The key evidence is that we know there are only two possible times for John the Baptist to have been conceived, and we know that Jesus was conceived 6 months after John the Baptist.

We know that John the Baptist was conceived after his father's service in the Temple ended. We know that his father was part of the 8th course of priests, out of 24. We know that the 8th course served a term twice a year and we know what time each year they served. Thus we can fix that Jesus must have either been born around the Feast of Tabernacles, or in late December.

There is no compelling historical or scriptural reason to doubt the date of late December.


3. That Messiah Jesus was crucified on a Friday because the Gospels say it was the day before the Sabbath.
4. That the crucifixion was in 33 AD because that's when the modern Jewish calendar shows a Friday matching Nisan 14 (Passover).
5. That Easter reflects the actual time of the month and historically accurate series of events of the Messiah's final week

Your case for these points is extremely poor and is easily dismantled (as it has been in this thread)

6. That Anderson's/Hoehner's interpretation of the 70 Weeks in Daniel is based on 360 day Jewish years and there are exactly a certain number of days to the Triumphal Entry of Messiah Jesus.

Not sure what this has to do with anything, but since most people's views on prophecy are highly suspect, sure, why not.

7. That Messiah Jesus was 30 years old when He began His ministry

People suffer from the same lack of accuracy and attention to detail that you have exhibited. What the Gospel says is that he was "about thirty". So he was somewhere near the age of 30. We don't know precisely what age he was.


8. That the Jewish exile in Babylon was 70 years long

This all depends on what dates you pick. Most of the time the dates that people pick regarding the exile and Daniels 70 7's are arbitrarily chosen to fit their particular scheme.

9. That the Judean population in the 1st century spoke Greek as their common language. Or even that they spoke Hebrew as their common language.

I have literally never heard ANY scholar teach this. I've never met any person who is reasonably well educated who thinks this.


10. That the Koine Greek of the New Testament is written in pristine, perfectly grammatically correct Greek
11. That there is some way to determine what the original New Testament authors' actually wrote to be found in the various Greek manuscripts
12. That some of the strange and problematic sayings of Messiah Jesus found in the Gospels are actually what He said - we just don't know how to properly understand and interpret them

I get the impression that you have never actually interacted with a real biblical scholar.
 
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Deborah~

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The date of Christmas was fixed after the date of the Annunciation (the conception of Jesus). It was widely believed among early Christians that the world was created on March 25th, and that Jesus was crucified on March 25th. As a result it came to be believed, as early as the 2nd century that Jesus was also conceived on Marth 25th. The date of Christmas was fixed on December 25th, because it is 9 months after March 25th.

Further, while it is impossible to entirely accurately fix the date of Jesus birth based on the available evidence. The evidence does essentially leave us two possibilities, one of which is late December. The key evidence is that we know there are only two possible times for John the Baptist to have been conceived, and we know that Jesus was conceived 6 months after John the Baptist.

We know that John the Baptist was conceived after his father's service in the Temple ended. We know that his father was part of the 8th course of priests, out of 24. We know that the 8th course served a term twice a year and we know what time each year they served. Thus we can fix that Jesus must have either been born around the Feast of Tabernacles, or in late December.

There is no compelling historical or scriptural reason to doubt the date of late December.
Agreed, there is no compelling reason, other than perhaps an overweening sense of hubris.
I am hearing, at least in popular chatter, the notion that Jesus might have been born during the time of Tabernacles, and of course some are convinced of it by their always infallible calculations. But I believe we have to take into consideration the historical realities of the time. Tabernacles was one of the three annual pilgrimages all male Jews were required to make to Jerusalem, and Tabernacles, like every other festival, could only be observed in Jerusalem where the requisite sacrifice and offerings were made. And in the case of Tabernacles, the Jews were required to construct the sukkahs in which they had to actually live during the seven days of the feast. Being in the fall, when the hot, dust-laden kamseen winds from the Negev desert abated and the prevailing winds shifted and came from the west bringing cooler temperatures and the very first rains of the season, every town and village throughout the land (according to Josephus) would become deserted as the people, whole families together, "went up" to the Holy City to celebrate the festival.
The political reality was that Herod simply would not have been so foolish as to conduct a census during a festival. Jewish law required a census be conducted "by tribe," (a lesson the Jews had learned at great cost) requiring the people to return to the ancestral seat of their families. This necessitated a complete disruption to the whole nation, requiring the people to leave their herds and flocks, their fields and orchards, their shops and trades, and in many cases travel the length and breadth of the country to register and swear their allegiance at their ancestral seat. To do so during a festival, when the people were required to spend the week in Jerusalem, would have caused a riot. In point of fact, the riot that ensued in A.D. 6 when Archelaus was deposed and Judea became a Roman province and another census was conducted by Quirinius, this time according to Roman methods (everyone registered in the city or village of their residence, only those traveling were required to return home) it sparked a rebellion that actually gave birth to the Zealot movement. And that's not to mention the disruption it would cause to the economy, and consequently to Herod's tax base. For a variety of reasons, the census would need to be conducted during a time of year that would have the least impact on the economy, which in fact would be in early winter, after the olive harvest and the fall sowing for the spring/early summer grain harvest (two of the three primary harvests of the land) was finished, but before the heavy rains began in January when the roads would become muddy and travel difficult.
We do know that late December travel was not a problem as Hanukkah (the feast of dedication) was observed at this same time of year, and even though it was not an observance commanded in the Law, the Scriptures record that Jesus went up to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast at least once.
So for a variety of reasons, a birth at Bethlehem during Tabernacles is not a realistic option. Even if the economic and political realities allowed it, which is historically doubtful, there would have been plenty of room "at the inn," everyone would have been in Jerusalem for the feast, as the Law commanded.
In Christ,
Deborah
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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Starting to learn stuff for yourself is great, but you need to learn how to learn. It is not enough to just pick out a few sources, or look at a few data points and then just come to a conclusion that you demand everyone agree with. Further you have to learn how to analyze data to be clear about what it says and what it does not say, then you have to learn how to construct logically valid inferences and conclusions.

You are missing lots of data that contradicts your viewpoints here, and your logic also just doesn't follow.
Nothing you claim actually disproved anything that I have written and shown EVIDENCE and SOURCES for. Nothing. You, on the other hand, need to follow your own advice.

I have no desire to get into useless arguments with people only interested in drive-by potshots. If you want to actually try to refute the evidence I have presented, then go for it. Otherwise, not interested.
 
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Agreed, there is no compelling reason, other than perhaps an overweening sense of hubris.
I am hearing, at least in popular chatter, the notion that Jesus might have been born during the time of Tabernacles, and of course some are convinced of it by their always infallible calculations. But I believe we have to take into consideration the historical realities of the time. Tabernacles was one of the three annual pilgrimages all male Jews were required to make to Jerusalem, and Tabernacles, like every other festival, could only be observed in Jerusalem where the requisite sacrifice and offerings were made. And in the case of Tabernacles, the Jews were required to construct the sukkahs in which they had to actually live during the seven days of the feast. Being in the fall, when the hot, dust-laden kamseen winds from the Negev desert abated and the prevailing winds shifted and came from the west bringing cooler temperatures and the very first rains of the season, every town and village throughout the land (according to Josephus) would become deserted as the people, whole families together, "went up" to the Holy City to celebrate the festival.
The political reality was that Herod simply would not have been so foolish as to conduct a census during a festival. Jewish law required a census be conducted "by tribe," (a lesson the Jews had learned at great cost) requiring the people to return to the ancestral seat of their families. This necessitated a complete disruption to the whole nation, requiring the people to leave their herds and flocks, their fields and orchards, their shops and trades, and in many cases travel the length and breadth of the country to register and swear their allegiance at their ancestral seat. To do so during a festival, when the people were required to spend the week in Jerusalem, would have caused a riot. In point of fact, the riot that ensued in A.D. 6 when Archelaus was deposed and Judea became a Roman province and another census was conducted by Quirinius, this time according to Roman methods (everyone registered in the city or village of their residence, only those traveling were required to return home) it sparked a rebellion that actually gave birth to the Zealot movement. And that's not to mention the disruption it would cause to the economy, and consequently to Herod's tax base. For a variety of reasons, the census would need to be conducted during a time of year that would have the least impact on the economy, which in fact would be in early winter, after the olive harvest and the fall sowing for the spring/early summer grain harvest (two of the three primary harvests of the land) was finished, but before the heavy rains began in January when the roads would become muddy and travel difficult.
We do know that late December travel was not a problem as Hanukkah (the feast of dedication) was observed at this same time of year, and even though it was not an observance commanded in the Law, the Scriptures record that Jesus went up to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast at least once.
So for a variety of reasons, a birth at Bethlehem during Tabernacles is not a realistic option. Even if the economic and political realities allowed it, which is historically doubtful, there would have been plenty of room "at the inn," everyone would have been in Jerusalem for the feast, as the Law commanded.
In Christ,
Deborah
I've already disproved all you have claimed a year ago. Not going to get into your false views again.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Nothing you claim actually disproved anything that I have written and shown EVIDENCE and SOURCES for. Nothing. You, on the other hand, need to follow your own advice.

I have no desire to get into useless arguments with people only interested in drive-by potshots. If you want to actually try to refute the evidence I have presented, then go for it. Otherwise, not interested.
None of your evidence or sources proved your claims. The only reply you seem to have is to insult people and become defensive and simply tell everyone that you know better than they do.

The reality is you don't. Your evidence doesn't prove your conclusions, and you deliberately ignore all evidence that contradicts your desired conclusions. You accused others of needing to change the evidence so they could get the conclusions they wanted, but it is obvious that this is what you yourself are doing.

Moreover, what you said is that your information showed that all the traditional dates etc were wrong. This is just false. Your evidence showed nothing of the kind.
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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None of your evidence or sources proved your claims. The only reply you seem to have is to insult people and become defensive and simply tell everyone that you know better than they do.

The reality is you don't. Your evidence doesn't prove your conclusions, and you deliberately ignore all evidence that contradicts your desired conclusions. You accused others of needing to change the evidence so they could get the conclusions they wanted, but it is obvious that this is what you yourself are doing.

Moreover, what you said is that your information showed that all the traditional dates etc were wrong. This is just false. Your evidence showed nothing of the kind.
LOL. You are projecting what you are doing yourself. If you can refute anything - ANYTHING - go for it.
 
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Simon_Templar

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LOL. You are projecting what you are doing yourself. If you can refute anything - ANYTHING - go for it.
Your argument is literally "nah uh that's you!"

you have already been refuted. I will waste no more time on your false teaching.
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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Your argument is literally "nah uh that's you!"

you have already been refuted. I will waste no more time on your false teaching.
Good. See ya. All you do is name calling and mocking. You have no substance. And nothing has been refuted with ACTUAL facts.
 
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Deborah~

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I know this is an old post, but if anyone is still watching it, this coin does not specify a 14 CE minting. It only designates it to the second year of TIB KAICAP, or Tiberius Caesar. There are other coins that give us the information to properly triangulate the dating. RPC 4270 and RPC 4330 both give the year of reign and the Actian year, A EM and Γ ZM respectively, placing Tiberius' first year of reign in 15 CE and his third in 17 CE.
True, the coin does not specify a 14 CE minting. But we know that when Tiberius became sole regent (officially Sept 17, 14 C.E.), he immediately appointed Gratus to replace the Augustus' appointee as prefect in Judea. This would be late 14 C.E. Upon arriving in Judea (late 14/early 15 C.E.), Gratus minted coins (as all new prefects/procurators did) showing it was the 2nd year of Tiberius. Gratus' rule as prefect of Judea is dated beginning in 15 C.E. That can only be reckoned as the 2nd year of Tiberius if one reckons from Tiberius' factual year beginning with his co-regency in A.D 12/13, not from his accession to sole power in A.D. 14/15. Another marker is that Gratus, upon taking over the reins of government in Judea, appointed Ishmael, Son of Fabus as High Priest. Again, the High Priesthood of Ishmael is dated to 15-16 C.E. Gratus ruled Judea for 11 years, being replaced by Pontius Pilate in 26 C.E., again, dating Gratus' first year to 15 which was the 2nd year of Tiberius.

I did make the point that even though this was obviously not the common Roman reckoning, Luke makes mention of the shared power of the High Priests, referring to Annanus as "High Priest" during the arrest and hearing of Jesus, even though Annanus had not officially held that office since Gratus had replaced him with Ishmael in 15 C.E. and Ishmael was followed by Eleazar in 16-17, Simon in 17-18, and finally Josephus Caiaphas in 18-36.

So all of these appointments occurred in the first year of Gratus' prefecture, 15 C.E., which according to the coinage minted when Gratus became Prefect, was the 2nd year of Tiberius.

That's not to say this is definitive, most things in this area of Bible study are not, but it does at least support the idea that Luke "could have" reckoned Tiberius' reign from his co-regency, a co-regency which is an historical fact, even if the Roman world did not. So as with so much of the history of this period, the best we can do is determine the possibilities, and then look at the weight of evidence. There are so very many things that are simply not definitive based on the available data we have, which in the end works to our favor in that it drives us to dig deep, do a lot of research and study, and draw honest and fair conclusions while realizing others may come to a different conclusion. But since these things are not a matter of soteriological import, I don't believe any of this chronological dating should become a matter of doctrine.
In Christ,
Deborah
 
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Deborah~

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I've already disproved all you have claimed a year ago. Not going to get into your false views again.
My post was addressed to Simon_Templar.
But since you responded ... we have only very briefly skimmed the surface of all the historical data about the life and times of Jesus, so to conclude you have "disproved all" the evidence I have offered is a bit premature. There is a wealth of data that has to be taken into consideration on these issues, and neither I nor you are the only sincere students to ever attempt to sort all this out. Starting your thread with the claim that 2000 years of dedicated Christian historians and scholars have all gotten it all wrong, but you alone have it all figured out, that in itself is a fairly good indication that the poster is not open to fair and honest and respectful discussion, let alone reconsideration of his views. Perhaps your goal here is simply to sell your books and generate traffic for your social media. But I can assure you, the spirit in which you conduct yourself on these public forums does not bode well for success. I might have been inclined to visit your linked sites and taken a look at your work "had you behaved in a more Christian-like manner," to paraphrase Ms. Austen.
In Christ,
Deborah
 
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My post was addressed to Simon_Templar.
But since you responded ... we have only very briefly skimmed the surface of all the historical data about the life and times of Jesus, so to conclude you have "disproved all" the evidence I have offered is a bit premature. There is a wealth of data that has to be taken into consideration on these issues, and neither I nor you are the only sincere students to ever attempt to sort all this out. Starting your thread with the claim that 2000 years of dedicated Christian historians and scholars have all gotten it all wrong, but you alone have it all figured out, that in itself is a fairly good indication that the poster is not open to fair and honest and respectful discussion, let alone reconsideration of his views. Perhaps your goal here is simply to sell your books and generate traffic for your social media. But I can assure you, the spirit in which you conduct yourself on these public forums does not bode well for success. I might have been inclined to visit your linked sites and taken a look at your work "had you behaved in a more Christian-like manner," to paraphrase Ms. Austen.
In Christ,
Deborah
Refute anything I have claimed. That's been the invitation to anyone at anytime. But only honest and respectful discussions. As I've said, I've dealt with the supposed evidence that you've presented and shown where that is inaccurate and full of assumptions. There are very good reasons no one has ever come to the right conclusion before now. Very good reasons. And it come down to the fact that most people do not know what they don't know. If that comes across as arrogant - it's not. It's just the facts. You will never come to the correct view while in ignorance of a great many interrelated concepts.
 
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