Biblical Creationism and Self Deceit

[bhsmte]

I already explained it to you. Read the thread if you want to see what post I was responding to.

Are you saying this isn't your opinion then?

 

[Givemeareason]

As would any reasoned discussion perhaps terms should be defined.

Creationism is the belief that the Universe and Life originate "from specific acts of divine creation."

That could mean just about any belief of origins as long as an uncreated Creator was the centerpiece, designer of all that was created.

Several folks have taken your comments to task on your general use of "Creationism."

So we can only come to two conclusions (looking for your to clarify):

1. First you see deciet in any view where a person sees the Universe and Life originate "from specific acts of divine creation."

or

2. You have issue with one (or more) specific views of Creationism.

Everyone posting here so far has affirmed they have as their core view that God is the Author of Creation. There are many views on how that was accomplished from the literal to allegory.

So do you take issue with Christians for believing in an uncreated Creator or specific views of divine creation?

The other question hanging out there is, so far you have not defined the deceit you vigorously rail against.

I have no issues with a divine creator. My view would be called theistic science as it is much more inclusive than just theistic evolution. The term evolutionist is even part of the deceit as it is like a black label for anything to do with science. And I am only concerned with YEC because that is where all the misrepresenting is taking place. That is the garbage that is promoted in religious schools and in foolish museums that are all a disgrace to Christianity. I take no issue with Christians. I take issue with the deceit of Creationism and its fundamentalist advocates as it is a failure to acknowledge there is NO evidence of Biblical Creation having taken place except attempts to fabricate it. It is completely unscientific in its approach, yet it is being promoted as science when it has nothing to do with science. It is just a bunch of twisted lies trying to undo science. That is why the world laughs at it. The deceit is trying to promote the bible as a science text and it demeans Christianity itself.

 

[redleghunter]

I have no issues with a divine creator. My view would be called theistic science as it is much more inclusive than just theistic evolution. The term evolutionist is even part of the deceit as it is like a black label for anything to do with science. And I am only concerned with YEC because that is where all the misrepresenting is taking place. That is the garbage that is promoted in religious schools and in foolish museums that are all a disgrace to Christianity. I take no issue with Christians. I take issue with the deceit of Creationism and its fundamentalist advocates as it is a failure to acknowledge there is NO evidence of Biblical Creation having taken place except attempts to fabricate it. It is completely unscientific in its approach, yet it is being promoted as science when it has nothing to do with science. It is just a bunch of twisted lies trying to undo science. That is why the world laughs at it. The deceit is trying to promote the bible as a science text and it demeans Christianity itself.

Please go up thread and see the link and excerpt I posted on Augustine of Hippo. Let me know what you think.

Ok, I also see you have revealed your views of creation. Thanks for that.

The only issue I take with your above comments is...how do you know the YEC are wrong. That would also beg the question of how the YEC are CERTAIN they are correct in their views.

If you are CERTAIN the YEC are wrong, then evidence should be produced so others can examine the deceit you indict them of. I don't think that is being unreasonable. Even in our legal system a DA brings charges against an accused, but then has to present evidence to prove the charges.

A couple of things to consider with regards to your position. You also claim that YEC are trying to undo science. Meaning what exactly? Most schools forbid any theology taught; they also forbid any other teachings of the theory of origins from other than secular presented evolution. So the burden of proof is on you to show where schools are completely scrapping science (used broadly by you) for YEC creationism. Schools used to be a marketplace of ideas, theories and associated debates and discussions. Over the past 30 years that has changed in the US where the state mandates what schools teach and frankly God 'has been told to not enter the campus grounds.'

So perhaps the next step is for you to debate a YEC in the debate format where you can lay out your case on how YEC is deceiving people.

 

[JustHisKid]

Are you saying this isn't your opinion then?

Why are you badgering me?

 

[Givemeareason]

Please go up thread and see the link and excerpt I posted on Augustine of Hippo. Let me know what you think.

Ok, I also see you have revealed your views of creation. Thanks for that.

The only issue I take with your above comments is...how do you know the YEC are wrong. That would also beg the question of how the YEC are CERTAIN they are correct in their views.

If you are CERTAIN the YEC are wrong, then evidence should be produced so others can examine the deceit you indict them of. I don't think that is being unreasonable. Even in our legal system a DA brings charges against an accused, but then has to present evidence to prove the charges.

A couple of things to consider with regards to your position. You also claim that YEC are trying to undo science. Meaning what exactly? Most schools forbid any theology taught; they also forbid any other teachings of the theory of origins from other than secular presented evolution. So the burden of proof is on you to show where schools are completely scrapping science (used broadly by you) for YEC creationism. Schools used to be a marketplace of ideas, theories and associated debates and discussions. Over the past 30 years that has changed in the US where the state mandates what schools teach and frankly God 'has been told to not enter the campus grounds.'

So perhaps the next step is for you to debate a YEC in the debate format where you can lay out your case on how YEC is deceiving people.

If you would give me the post number I would be glad to look at it. I don't have lots of time today. From a scientific perspective it is virtually impossible they could be right. And since they purport to be science that is how they should be judged. Science does not start with the conclusion and then look for the evidence. Science looks at the evidence and then works toward a conclusion. The first methodology is how YEC works and consequently that approach can prove just about anything and is just plain wrong. As for Schools I am referring to religious schools but it has been a terrible battle keeping Creationism out of public schools. Education has suffered because of it. And universities are still what you described but the reason you think God has been kicked out is because everyone is sick and tired of the Creationist garbage. There are more important matters to deal with in their views. What do you think would be gained by a debate with a YEC? There are plenty of those online and I just read a debate here the other day where the Christian lost miserably. My ego needs no such gratification. I am just trying to expose the lies and deceit you guys have bought into.

 

[bhsmte]

Why are you badgering me?

It was in your post so i was just asking if you thought it was testable.

 

[JustHisKid]

It was in your post so i was just asking if you thought it was testable.

Not in the least bit accurately.

 

[SteveB28]

Good thing we aren't scientists. I would hate to have to hang my beliefs at the door every time I go to work.

Many deeply religious scientists seem happy to do so. Francis Crick and Ken Miller come readily to mind.

 

[SteveB28]

Evidence is subjective. You may believe people are arrogant idiots, but that is just your wicked heart bashing people for living their lives in a manner that is none of your business. You should get over it.

No, evidence is objective in nature. You are confusing evidence with opinion when you claim it to be subjective. For something to qualify as 'evidence' it must be able to be examined by more than just the person proposing it.

 

[SteveB28]

They believe what they believe and they do not care about your opinion. Move on.

People are free to believe whatever nonsense appeals to them. However, when that belief stands in the way of others furthering their understanding and education, particularly children, then we all have the right and responsibility to speak out.

 

[Givemeareason]

Good mention of Augustine. Found this article which summarizes his studies of Scriptures with regards to Creation.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/may/22.39.html

Excerpt below from Christianity Today:

"Augustine draws out the following core themes: God brought everything into existence in a single moment of creation. Yet the created order is not static. God endowed it with the capacity to develop. Augustine uses the image of a dormant seed to help his readers grasp this point. God creates seeds, which will grow and develop at the right time. Using more technical language, Augustine asks his readers to think of the created order as containing divinely embedded causalities that emerge or evolve at a later stage. Yet Augustine has no time for any notion of random or arbitrary changes within creation. The development of God's creation is always subject to God's sovereign providence. The God who planted the seeds at the moment of creation also governs and directs the time and place of their growth.
Augustine argues that the first Genesis Creation account (1:1–2:3) cannot be interpreted in isolation, but must be set alongside the second Genesis Creation account (2:4–25), as well as every other statement about the Creation found in Scripture. For example, Augustine suggests that Psalm 33:6–9 speaks of an instantaneous creation of the world through God's creative Word, while John 5:17 points to a God who is still active within creation.
Further, he argues that a close reading of Genesis 2:4 has the following meaning: "When day was made, God made heaven and earth and every green thing of the field." This leads him to conclude that the six days of Creation are not chronological. Rather, they are a way of categorizing God's work of creation. God created the world in an instant but continues to develop and mold it, even to the present day."

There is much more to the article which does a good job of summarizing Augustine's studies on Creation. I encourage all who have not studied Augustine to view the entire article, which I think, shows the humility of the man examining God's written word.

I think I am stuck on the first sentence. Creation is ongoing. Augustine clearly did not have much insight on what was to come. What's your view on it?

 

[JustHisKid]

People are free to believe whatever nonsense appeals to them. However, when that belief stands in the way of others furthering their understanding and education, particularly children, then we all have the right and responsibility to speak out.

Indeed, people believe all manner of nonsense and they are not responsible for the nonsense others believe. You can speak out all you like, but your nonsense is just as nonsensical as everyone else's nonsense.

 

[Praisegod Barebones]

Dead wrong and yes I am aware of the passages in acts you would point to in them having all thing in common. However the early church did not require the selling of all goods into a communal as communism did. the story of Ananias bares out that it was a choice people could make or choose not to make . You are misapplying Acts to back up communism which is mandating distribution. Acts never stated that and no such command or principle was ever imposed on NT believer anywhere in the Bible

Wrong. Jesus Himself reduced the Ten Commandments to just two: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.” - Matt. 22:37-40

The Law of Love IS Communism. To be a Christian or not is the ONLY "choice". Once one IS a Christian, he or she MUST become a Communist. Jesus did not hold any possessions and everything He and His followers had was held in COMMON. (You will recall Him needing to ask SOMEONE ELSE to show Him a coin so that He could demonstrate that the Money System is of the earthly powers and NOT of God). The Apostles taught this as well, and this is why the ORIGINAL Church was Communist. It was NOT as though SOME of the Believers chose to give SOME of their wealth. No, it is CLEARLY stated that ALL of the believers gave ALL of their wealth to the cause of God:

"And all who believed were together and had all things in common; and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved." - Acts 2:44-47

You will also note that the Word teaches that the success of the Church was clearly and DIRECTLY associated with this Communist practice!

Furthermore:
"There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles’ feet; and distribution was made to each as any had need." - Acts 4:34, 35

Note that it was not SOME of those who had property who decided to sell it, but "as many as were possessors", that is EVERY SINGLE CHRISTIAN who owned property SOLD it and GAVE the value of it to all the others.
AMEN.

 

[Givemeareason]

People are free to believe whatever nonsense appeals to them. However, when that belief stands in the way of others furthering their understanding and education, particularly children, then we all have the right and responsibility to speak out.

I am deeply concerned with some if the outcomes of fundamentalist home schooling.

 

[SteveB28]

Indeed, people believe all manner of nonsense and they are not responsible for the nonsense others believe. You can speak out all you like, but your nonsense is just as nonsensical as everyone else's nonsense.

Your incredibly creative prose doesn't alter the situation that people often act on those warped beliefs. And that action is frequently in the form of a denial of education to children. We see it in the madrasah schools in Asia, we see it in the attempts of fundamentalists to change the curricula in the UK and USA.

 

[JustHisKid]

Your incredibly creative prose doesn't alter the situation that people often act on those warped beliefs. And that action is frequently in the form of a denial of education to children. We see it in the madrasah schools in Asia, we see it in the attempts of fundamentalists to change the curricula in the UK and USA.

Warped beliefs are in the eye of the beholder. Creation may in fact be true and what you believe is all warpy.

 

[JustHisKid]

I am deeply concerned with some if the outcomes of fundamentalist home schooling.

I'm deeply concerned with some of the outcomes of our public education system. My sister home-schooled her incredibly smart and talented and successful children, thank you very much.

 

[SteveB28]

Warped beliefs are in the eye of the beholder. Creation may in fact be true and what you believe is all warpy.

And leprechauns may, in fact, exist. But would we waste the time in a child's education in explaining to them how the little men cast their spells?

 

[JustHisKid]

And leprechauns may, in fact, exist. But would we waste the time in a child's education in explaining to them how the little men cast their spells?

Yes, people may evolve from pond scum, but it would be extremely irresponsible to teach children about that kind of magical hooey.

 

[JustHisKid]

And leprechauns may, in fact, exist. But would we waste the time in a child's education in explaining to them how the little men cast their spells?

it's even more irresponsible to teach children that their lives in fact only amount to pond scum. They are created in the image of God for a purpose.