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Biblical Content and/or Christian Interpretation II: Monitorial

Rev Wayne

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JOHN THE BAPTIST​
JOHN THE EVANGELIST​
 
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Skip Sampson

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The FL GL also makes these comments:
Every Mason must believe in God and in the immortality of the soul. The Volume of Sacred Law must be open on every Lodge Altar. (FL GL LSME, booklet 1)
A candidate must pledge himself to a belief in God and to a belief in Immortality, and he must reverence the Volume of Sacred Law as a rule and guide for his life.(FL GL LSME, booklet 1)
In conclusion, my Brother, The Masonic Belief is that there is but one God, the Father of all men. The Volume of Sacred Law is the Great Light in Masonry, and the Rule and Guide for faith and practice. (FL GL LSME, booklet 3)
The long and the short of it is this: First, it is the VSL that is so important in Freemasonry; the Bible is used in U.S. lodges by their choice, because it is a part of the VSL. In reality, any part of the VSL (e.g., Koran, Book of Mormon) will do and indeed is substituted for the Bible should a candidate so desire. Second, the Bible has only one main function in Freemasonry, which is to solemnify the candidate's obligations. All other claims merely reflect Masonic PR. Cordially, Skip.
 
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Rev Wayne

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Sorry, you claim "long and short of it," but only tell the short of it. There is no such thing as "part of a VSL." The Bible IS the VSL in Florida, there is not another. You just totally ignored the very statement you cited before you went off on your own inventions:

No Lodge may stand open unless the Holy Bible is opened upon its altar with the Square and Compasses displayed thereon indicating the Degree in which the Lodge is working.
Since the BIBLE is the book that MUST be on the altar, and without which no lodge in Florida can even open a lodge meeting, the Bible IS the "VSL" for lodges in Florida's Grand Lodge jurisdiction.

And it's not "me" saying that. Just compare the statements, they speak for themselves:

The Volume of Sacred Law must be open on every Lodge Altar.

No Lodge may stand open unless the Holy Bible is opened upon its altar.
You are once again confusing the general with the specific. The statement you cited, if you would only consider the context for once, speaks more in general in regard to ALL Masonry.

Those that I cited are specific references to Florida, and what its VSL IS, not general references to all of Masonry and what the VSL might potentially be elsewhere. The Florida Mentors Manual also says:

The Grand Lodges of the United States use the Holy Bible as the V.S.L. on their altars.
That's not "part of the VSL," Lodges in the U.S. use the Bible AS THE VSL ON THEIR ALTARS.

An analogy to the sport of boxing serves as a good ilustration of the same principle. Depending upon which state a fight takes place, a different set of rules will apply. But when in any particular state, which thus places that particular set of rules into effect, it is that set of rules which applies; thus in that state, those specific regulations ARE "the rules"--NOT, "part of the rules." This is further shown in yet another statement from the Mentor's Manual:

In some Lodges in other countries the altars of Masonry have more than one Volume of the Sacred Law on them and the candidate may choose the one on which he is obligated.
Again, nothing there speaking of component parts. Instead, it clearly speaks of "more than one."

You're just off on another of your delusions, like "Jacob's Staircase," and "authoritative pictures."

As always, same bullpuppies, different day.

Second, the Bible has only one main function in Freemasonry, which is to solemnify the candidate's obligations. All other claims merely reflect Masonic PR.
Wrong again. Even Mike states on his website that he was told to make the Bible "the rule and guide of your faith," and to "follow the light you therein shall find." A little harder to make that claim when your own partner in grime has given his own acknowledgment to the contrary.

But I can't help but notice the thing of REAL significance here, which follows the usual pattern of course, is the thing you ignore rather than the one you address. In this case, that would be the two articles on "the saints John." As I said, you address the short, but not the long. Naturally you will choose to pass right by without comment on the concluding remarks of each:

Finally, in summing up the place of John the Baptist as a patron saint of Masonry, may we ask the question: "If John the Baptist spent his entire life seeking, finding and following the Lamb of the tribe of Judah, can we as Master Masons do any less?

 
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Rev Wayne

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By the way, I notice you didn't post any publication dates, which is unlike you. You might consider updating your LSME booklets. The Florida Mentor's Manual, from which I posted, currently appears on the Grand Lodge of Florida's website, on their Masonic Education link, and therefore would supersede any earlier Masonic Education publication they might have used.
 
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Skip Sampson

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If memory serves, my LSME booklets date from 1994. The Mentor's Manual you noted has no date, but is most likely the same one I have. Once I get my books out of storage, I'll check.

You are incorrect about the Mentor's Manual superseding the LSME. Both were published as separate booklets by the GL and both remain current. Incidentally, the Mentor's Manual makes this statement:
The Great Light of Freemasonry is the Volume of the Sacred Law and it is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Lodge. The Grand Lodges of the United States use the Holy Bible as the V.S.L. on their altars. (Pg. 9)
Cordially, Skip.
 
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Rev Wayne

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The Great Light of Freemasonry is the Volume of the Sacred Law and it is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Lodge. The Grand Lodges of the United States use the Holy Bible as the V.S.L. on their altars. (Pg. 9)
Thanks for affirming that the Great Light of Masonry in Florida is the Bible. You simply can't come to any other conclusion based on the two sentences you just posted.

And they prove it is Florida's Great Light, when they ALSO state:

Let's face it, you don't get around this one by simply quoting the one you just did. This one has the BIBLE on the altar, opened to the specific passage that is read during the entry upon the degree, and describes the fact it is open, as symbolic of regulating one's conduct by its teachings, and calls it the "rule and guide of our faith."

And they state it the same as we saw it before, they use the Holy Bible "AS THE VSL," not as "a 'part' of the VSL."

You are incorrect about the Mentor's Manual superseding the LSME. Both were published as separate booklets by the GL and both remain current.
Of course "they" do. The point was, YOURS do not remain current, they're from 1994. Last time I checked, this was 2011, that trumps 1994 by 17 years.

But I have to admit, it is pretty funny watching you do the flip-flop once again. When it was the North Carolina discussion, I was quoting one source and you were quoting a "separate" one, and it didn't matter to you, YOURS "superseded" primarily because mine was older. Now all of a sudden, the shoe gets on the other foot, and your tune changes.

Since you've already set the precedent for it, I'll go with the precedent that was established. Your claim of "two separate booklets" is disallowed by your own choice to pay no attention to that fact in the previous argument; and this being 2011, 1994 is superseded. That is, of course, unless you can show some incontrovertible indication that you can come up with a current one, or prove that the 1994 wording hasn't changed.

But even if you do, you sure won't be able to change ONE thing: the current statement as it appears in the Mentor's Manual. Since they're two separate publications, and since they're both published by Florida Masonic Education, you can't really trump the Mentor's Manual with the LSME statement. My guess is, the true story of the matter is, one addresses Masonry in general, the other addresses Florida Masonry--which has been the typical pattern in such imagined "conflicts." As we all well know, and as even your partner has affirmed for us, Masonry can be different from one location to another.

But here's the part I really like:

If memory serves, my LSME booklets date from 1994.
So one minute your books are in storage, the next minute you're providing direct quotes from one of them, and yet again the next moment, suddenly they're back in storage again, and you're having to "guess" at the dates?
 
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Skip Sampson

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Thanks for affirming that the Great Light of Masonry in Florida is the Bible. You simply can't come to any other conclusion based on the two sentences you just posted.
Sure I can, and I do. It clearly states that the VSL is the Great Light in Masonry. Period. In fact, the Florida Mentor's Manual (MM) does not claim anywhere that the 'Great Light' is the Bible. It means this: the VSL is the Great Light. The Bible, as part of the VSL, may be used on the altar, but only because it is part of the VSL. The meaning of the quote is unmistakeable, and you should have read it first before commenting, or at least done some basic research.


Food for thought: Any GL can change its mind and use any of the VSL, or all of them, as its Great Light. Let's suppose Utah decided to use the Book of Mormon as its Great Light. What would actually change? The ritual would be reworded to reflect that, but a candidate could still use 'another' VSL for his ceremony, with the ritual changed accordingly. What do you suppose the other GL's would do? Seems to me that with the VSL being proclaimed as the Great Light, other GL's would not have a legal leg to stand on. I think something like that will eventually happen; it'll be interesting to watch.

Of course "they" do. The point was, YOURS do not remain current, they're from 1994. Last time I checked, this was 2011, that trumps 1994 by 17 years.
The MM on the website had no publishing date in it. Where do you get the idea that it was published in 2011, that is, within the last 10 days? My guess is that the MM now on the website is the same version in my library, and that it probably predates the LSME. A book remains 'current' until replaced by an updated copy, withdrawn or superseded, but its publication date doesn't change. In the NC issue, its LSME conflicted with the GL's Code, which is why Mike correctly pointed out your error. I would say that, in general, a GL's Code is the highest document in the pecking order.


I don't have to. While I'm sure there are some disconnects between the two, here's what the LSME has to say about the Great Lights:
The Volume of Sacred Law is the Great Light in Masonry, and the Rule and Guide for faith and practice. (LSME, Booklet 3)
Notice that both the MM and the LSME agree that the VSL is the Great Light in Masonry; however, the LSME doesn't add the second thought that the MM does. Of interest, my search of the four LSME booklets reveals that none of them identify the Bible as the Great Light. In this, they are completely in agreement. You'll also be interested to learn that the LSME does not mention the Bible at all. This means both publications directly contradict the statements in the Florida ritual. More bait & switch?


I really don't think you understand either the MM or the LSME in terms of their genesis. The Florida MM, as does the Virginia one, are taken from the Indiana MM, probably verbatim. The Mississippi MM was taken from Florida's. Nebraska's MM agrees with Florida that the Great Light is the VSL, though elsewhere in the same document it identifies the Bible as such. In any event, I think you may have hit on something in seeing the MM as more reflective of Masonry in general.

In addition, the MM and LSME are separate documents, probably serving separate purposes, and I'd guess that the LSME would take precedence. But that's speculation at this point. Both documents can be used to describe Masonry in Florida.
So one minute your books are in storage, the next minute you're providing direct quotes from one of them, and yet again the next moment, suddenly they're back in storage again, and you're having to "guess" at the dates?
As I noted earlier, if you think I'm lying, feel free to make the charge. I won't complain to the moderators. You might also take more care in reading my posts, as earlier I had noted that I had an extensive glossary online and had copied most of the Florida materials online as well. Since I had used them extensively, it made sense.

Wayne, I get a lot of pleasure responding to you posts, and not just in showing what an intellectual lightweight you really are. I do a lot of effective research in the points you raise, as one thing usually leads to another and yet another truth about Masonry reveals itself. Even though I think your posts are, in most cases, jokes, I do appreciate the quality research time I get in responding to them. Cordially, Skip.
 
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Rev Wayne

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There's no such thing as "part of the VSL." That's the one card that makes your whole house of cards fall flat. Since you seem to think this is a viable position, back it up by citing from ANY Masonic source, I don't really care whether it's monitorial, professorial, or hunky-dorial, you will not find this Skip Sampson-invented term anywhere you care to look.

Why don't you do this: go to your file 13, and drop it in the same one with your Jacob's Staircase and your authoritative ashlar pictures, where it truly belongs, and for once let a bogus claim die an early death and quit wasting everybody's time.
 
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Rev Wayne

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The MM on the website had no publishing date in it. Where do you get the idea that it was published in 2011, that is, within the last 10 days?
If it's currently on their GL website, it's currently in effect. You can't claim the same for your 1994-dated materials. Don't think you'll find any GL with any 1994 publication that hasn't been updated since then. In fact, how do you know they even still use the LSME? After all, there are several materials on the site, but none of them happens to be the LSME, nor do they seem to be referenced in any way.

Can you show any evidence that the LSME 1994 booklet is still in use? Until you can, you can't claim any parity between that and education materials that currently appear on the Florida GL website.
 
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Rev Wayne

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[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
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Rev Wayne

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The Bible tells us that, “Where there is no vision the people perish.”
(Proceedings, NC, 2004, p. 54)

The Bible reminds us to plead the widow’s cause and to visit the fatherless in their affliction. What better example can be found than our North Carolina Masonic Charities? (Proceedings, NC, 2004, p. 57)


A candidate must pledge himself to a belief in God and to a belief in immortality, and he must reverence the Holy Bible as a rule and guide for his life. (Grand Lodge of Nebraska, Masonic Continuing Education Course: Entered Apprentice, p. 14)

The Bible must be open on every Lodge Altar. (GLNE, MCEC: EA, p. 15)






.
 
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Rev Wayne

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The Lodge is an assemblage of Masons, duly congregated, having the Holy Bible, Square, and Compasses, and a Warrant of Constitution authorizing them to work. (LA. Monitor, p. 48)







.
 
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Skip Sampson

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There's no such thing as "part of the VSL."
I'm assuming you are arguing semantics here, as it's about all you have left. The phrase "Volume of Sacred Law" is the general term used by Masonry to refer to the book on its altar. Since several such books are allowed under the general heading, each can be characterized as a "part of the VSL." The VSL, in another sense, is just a symbol of the will of God as man conceives it, and its parts fall under that symbol. None the less, here are a couple of references for you:


Wayne said:
If it's currently on their GL website, it's currently in effect.
No argument there; however, you claimed a 2011 date for the MM, and it clearly was not published on that date. Wrong again, Wayne.

Wayne said:
In fact, how do you know they even still use the LSME? ... Can you show any evidence that the LSME 1994 booklet is still in use?
Well, the booklets are still on the FL GL order form, so I guess we can take it as a given that they are still in force. As I noted earlier, they remain in force unless specifically recalled or reissued. You're using weak arguments, Wayne, which show how desperate you are to avoid recognizing that you've stepped in it yet again. But, they certainly are consistent with your other posts.


Wayne said:
Don't think you'll find any GL with any 1994 publication that hasn't been updated since then.
You certainly do not learn from your mistakes. Visit the NC GL website and see the issue date for their LSME, which is older than the 1994 documents. It hasn't been reissued yet, though it still remains current.


Wayne said:
After all, there are several materials on the site, but none of them happens to be the LSME, nor do they seem to be referenced in any way.
Too bad you are not familiar with the FL GL materials. They actually have two different sets of instruction booklets, plus the MM. Order them and you can deal with the issue factually, for a change. Cordially, Skip.
 
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Rev Wayne

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No argument there; however, you claimed a 2011 date for the MM, and it clearly was not published on that date.

No, I did not, you are simply inventing another one to go along with your "part of the VSL." I said it was current. If it's current, that means it is in current usage NOW. NOW happens to be 2011, which is why in making the comparison with the 1994 date you supplied for the LSME, I subtracted from 2011. I never said ANYTHING about when it was published. I was only speaking of its being currently in effect in Florida, as evidenced by the fact that the Education Committee has it on their website.

If you really wish to get me to make any corrective to what I stated, I would certainly acknowledge that the Mentor Manual currently in usage on their site would have been approved by their Grand Lodge proceedings in the year of 2010, and a notation of it would appear either somewhere in their publication containing constitution and code, or (and more likely), in their published transactions of those proceedings. Therefore, subtracting the dates should have begun with 2010 rather than 2011. But until you supply us with any definitive indication that the 1994 booklet is still in use there, all we have is your word on it. That's hardly "proof."

You certainly TRIED to spin this to make it LOOK like I said it was PUBLISHED in 2011:

The MM on the website had no publishing date in it. Where do you get the idea that it was published in 2011, that is, within the last 10 days?
I said nothing of the kind:


The fact is, only the Mentor's Manual has been SHOWN to be current, because it is currently on their website. The LSME is not. All we have is your quote from it, and a vague recollection that 1994 was the publishing date. How do you go from that to any claim that it "remains current?" Are you saying it can be found on their site as well? Can you post a link, then? Help us out here, Skip, I'm just trying to get a handle on what your information source is for your claim that it "remains current." I've seen no other basis presented for your claiming it, than the fact that Skip Sampson says so.

Heck, so far you haven't even established that it's 1994 either, because you said you were stating that date as your best recollection of it. I've been willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and go with the date you offered, but what you are trying to stretch that into is totally beyond belief. Either post a link to the current GL site with the 1994 LSME online as their currently-used booklet, or provide us with some other supportable reason that it should be taken to be so, or give up the foolish argument. Can't believe you'd be going out on limbs again, so soon after your most recent fiasco.

I'm assuming you are arguing semantics here

Wow, YOU invent a term that is not in Masonic usage ANYWHERE, "part of the VSL," and then try to accuse ME of semantics! That's charming, but sorry, no pole reversals allowed. I'll leave the semantic antics up to you.

None the less, here are a couple of references for you:
Neither one of which, you will notice, says anything about "part of the VSL."

Visit the NC GL website and see the issue date for their LSME, which is older than the 1994 documents. It hasn't been reissued yet, though it still remains current.

Visit Florida's website and see that they have NO such booklet on their website, much less one dated 1994, so there's no rational basis for you to claim its currency. And the North Carolina site says nothing about whether that booklet is currently in use, all it says is that it's out of print. Usually such a notation is an indication that it is NOT in current use. The heading under which they are found gives no such indication either, it just says "Publications." That could be new ones, old ones, or whatever.

That's a pretty neat trick, though, trying to claim "Florida's LSME is current, just go look at the North Carolina website if you want proof." I'm sure you'll garner a lot of support with that impeccable bit of logic.

Too bad you are not familiar with the FL GL materials. They actually have two different sets of instruction booklets, plus the MM. Order them and you can deal with the issue factually, for a change.
Actually, Florida has eight of the booklets, plus a Masonic Etiquette Booklet, GL-200-208. The Mentors Manual is considered a part of the system, designated GL-217. And their Lodge Training Course Study Guide makes it clear that the Mentor Manual is an integral part of the system:

A regular part of each and every Stated Meeting should be devoted to the material contained in the Masonic Education Booklets, Mentors Manual and other sources of Masonic information and education.
But no matter what can be said of the booklets, the dates, or such matters, there is one glaring fact that you have not managed to controvert with any of this. The Mentor's Manual, which we KNOW to be current, contains materials about the VSL which do not reflect what you cited about the VSL from the LSME booklets in your possession--booklets which we do NOT KNOW to be current.

Also: Earlier you made THESE comments in comparing the two:


If there is any bait and switch, it's on your part. You've tried to pretend the LSME booklets are all that there is to it, that the Mentor's Manual is somehow "out of sync" or whatever it is you're doing with it. But the Training Course Study Guide shows otherwise, listing both in its description.

But there is an even simpler way to point out that your attempted exclusion of the Mentor's Manual comment about the Three Great Lights, is out of order. Go to the three training modules on the Masonic Education link on the GL site, and locate the module which contains the quiz for the EA booklet (Module III, Lesson IV). Look at question #26 and you will find:

26. No Lodge can be opened unless what is done first?

The answer is found in the Mentor Manual, in the very passage you tried to reject, from p. 9:


And as I pointed out before, it is this requirement that the HOLY BIBLE be on the altar BEFORE THE LODGE CAN BE OPENED, that makes it THE VSL FOR FLORIDA--not "part of the VSL." "Part of the VSL" is not a Masonic term, nor is it a Masonic understanding, nor have you shown anything remotely suggesting any such thing.

And now we find that this statement from the Mentor Manual, which you tried to reject by trying to cite the LSME booklet as though it "refuted" it--or whatever you thought it did--is significant enough in what it says, that the education committee included a question about its content in the training module.

Too bad you are not familiar with the FL GL materials. Maybe you could discuss them factually for a change.

Can't help but snicker, too, at your citing masonicdictionary.com again, and the California GL as well, as if that corroborates, or even could corroborate, what is found in manuals drawn up by Florida for use in Florida GL jurisdiction. As usual, you're all over the map.
 
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Skip Sampson

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No, I did not ... I said it was current.
Well, here's your quote:
The point was, YOURS do not remain current, they're from 1994. Last time I checked, this was 2011, that trumps 1994 by 17 years.
You assumed the LSME was not current as it was not on the website, a pretty silly view. I noted that the LSME booklets were still on the order forms. Moreover, you also don't know the publishing date of the MM. As noted before, a document is current unless cancelled, superceded or updated. Your statement remains incorrect.

BTW, I took the time to call the FL GL and the gentleman I talked to said the booklets were all rolled up into the overall Masonic Education program, part of which is on the website. I'm ordering a copy to see what it all entails. I'll let you know what I find.

The fact is, only the Mentor's Manual has been SHOWN to be current, because it is currently on their website. The LSME is not.
Check out this link: http://www.glflamason.org/documents/Mod2StudyGuide.pdf
It's not the LSME, but note the date is 1994.

And the North Carolina site says nothing about whether that booklet is currently in use, all it says is that it's out of print. Usually such a notation is an indication that it is NOT in current use.
Then why did you quote from it as though it were?


The Mentor's Manual, which we KNOW to be current, contains materials about the VSL which do not reflect what you cited about the VSL from the LSME booklets in your possession
Yet the MM directly states that the VSL is the Great Light in Masonry. It's a blunt statement that the LSME booklets backed up.

... EA booklet (Module III, Lesson IV). Look at question #26 and you will find ...
The answer is found in the Mentor Manual...
Really? Is it found in the Study Guide to which the quiz refers to? Why would you assume the MM has that specific answer? BTW, some of the study guides reference the LSME booklets.

it is this requirement that the HOLY BIBLE be on the altar BEFORE THE LODGE CAN BE OPENED, that makes it THE VSL FOR FLORIDA--not "part of the VSL."
Again, just semantics. The VSL includes many books, each of which can be seen as part of the VSL. To claim that the Bible is the only VSL for Florida reflects an incorrect understanding of the concept. In the Masonic view, it is merely one part of the overall will of God as expressed to man. Cordially, Skip.
 
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O.F.F.

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This is true my brother, and Wayne knows it. And he also knows that what you describe here has been declared by other Grand Lodges besides Florida; and buttressed and upheld by prominent Masonic authors.

For the readers, here are a couple of examples:


 
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Rev Wayne

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You assumed the LSME was not current as it was not on the website, a pretty silly view.

Well, perhaps it WOULD be silly, HAD I presumed any such thing, but as it turns out, the only thing silly is your presumption that I presumed any such thing. All i was pointing out was, it is NOT on the website, and therefore may NOT be presumed to be current, which is precisely what YOU are doing: presuming that the 1994 booklet is still current, without any sort of evidence upon which to base it.

As noted before, a document is current unless cancelled, superceded or updated. Your statement remains incorrect.

That's just it: you are presuming the 1994 version to be "still current," but doing so without one iota of info to support it, and without any evidence that it has not been subsequently edited. YOU are the one who made the claim of "still current." What I have attempted to do from that point is, to show you the error of such presumption, and to try to get you to quit playing patty-cake and man up and get some kind of evidence to back the claim up. So far you refuse, and keep playing ring around the rosie with everything I say, the same stalling tactics you engage in every time your argument loses its pants.

Check out this link: It's not the LSME, but note the date is 1994.

You really ought to pay better attention. I just quoted from that same document in my last post:

A regular part of each and every Stated Meeting should be devoted to the material contained in the Masonic Education Booklets, Mentors Manual and other sources of Masonic information and education.

That statement, coupled with the fact that the answer to one of the test questions is answered directly from the Mentor's Manual, show that it is considered to be on a par level with the booklets. Which makes your entire argument moot, because as I pointed out, the very section you have tried to challenge from the Mentor's Manual, is the answer to one of the proficiency test questions. If the EA is to be tested on a question about what is required for the lodge to open, and must answer that the Holy Bible has to be on the altar as part of the answer, your objections to the idea that the Bible is somehow not the VSL of Florida Masonry, is SHOT.

Yet the MM directly states that the VSL is the Great Light in Masonry. It's a blunt statement that the LSME booklets backed up.

Again, you are trying to limit the MM statement to only PART of what it says. Here once again is the fuller statement:

The Great Light of Freemasonry is the Volume of the Sacred Law and it is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Lodge. The Grand Lodges of the United States use the Holy Bible as the V.S.L. on their altars.

Anyone can see, the first statement addresses "Freemasonry" in the broader sense. This is clearly indicated by following it up with a SPECIFIC reference to the VSL or Great Light as it pertains to FLORIDA, referring to "Holy Bible." This is consistent with what you will find in other discussions as well, there is nothing "in error" for any Grand Lodge which uses the Holy Bible, to refer to the BIBLE as the "Great Light" or the "Volume of Sacred Law."


The scope of the Mentor's Manual is "Florida Freemasonry." Hence the difference. The MM is not trying to establish the general term VSL in that statement. It is simpy prefacing the paragraph with it, and using the general to take it to the specifics which follow.

Is it found in the Study Guide to which the quiz refers to?
No it's not. Why ask me? You provided the link to it, didn't you look at it yourself? Or maybe you looked at it, and KNOW this, and are simply playing patty-cake with the material again. There are NO answers in the guide. And the answer to the question is not found in the LSME booklet, it is found ONLY in the Mentor's Manual.

Again, just semantics. The VSL includes many books, each of which can be seen as part of the VSL. To claim that the Bible is the only VSL for Florida reflects an incorrect understanding of the concept
.


Semantics, all right, on your part. Every Grand Lodge has a statement similar to the one in question, stating which book is REQUIRED to be on the altar. In the U.S., in EVERY Grand Lodge jurisdiction, that book is the BIBLE. The book required to be on the altar is the VSL of any GL jurisdiction, and all bylaws referring to any other book being used for anyone's obligation ALWAYS refer to other books chosen as a "substitute." Since you like masonicdictionary.com, the very first line you find in their statement under "Volume of Sacred Law":

The proper Masonic name for the book on the altar even if it is the King James Version of the Bible.
Since you like MSANA statements:


You see that, right? "An open volume of the Sacred Law...is an essential part of ever Masonic meeting"--a general statment--followed by the acknowledgment that to the Christian, it would be the Bible. Again, referencing the general while also establishing the specifics.

Florida's Mentor's Manual specifies exactly which one that is in Florida, it's the Holy Bible.

I have no doubt you will continue to waffle and wiggle and squirm in the effort to make it out to be different, but the statement is there, and is a reflection of the basic requirement of Florida's Masonic Code/Constitution, which also specifies the Holy Bible as the book REQUIRED to be there to open the lodge. It's the same here in SC, and I think it's safe to say, you will find it no different in any lodge in the U.S., since they ALL have the Holy Bible on the altar as the book that opens the lodge. For example, in Virginia:

Once again, "VSL" in a general statement, followed by the specifics as they apply to the U.S., where ALL GL's use the Holy Bible to open the lodge.

Another statement from VA's education link on the GL website gives further elucidation of the answer to the same question just referenced from Florida's MM:


That was part of the answer to the question asked in module 3 of the training manual on the Florida site, the answer to which ALSO signified that the Bible had to be OPEN as part of the requirement for the lodge to open. This is done by instruction of the WM to the Senior Deacon to "display the three great lights of Masonry."

You see, whether we speak of South Carolina, of Florida, of North Carolina, of Virginia, or of any other lodge in the U.S., it is extremely common to find within their education materials, which naturally are drawn up by their Masonic Education Committee, and approved by their Grand Lodge, to reflect matters more specifically as pertains to their own Grand Lodge, rather than the more general terms one might use in regard to Masonry in general--that is, Masonry in its broader statements as used when speaking of worldwide Masonry. Another example from that same VA. DEO Manual:


Again, from their Lodge Officers and Master Masons' Handbook:

Your Lodge is a certain number of Free and Accepted Masons duly assembled with the Holy Bible, Square, Compasses, and a Charter from the Grand Lodge of Virginia empowering them to work.
Notice in this instance, it's "YOUR Lodge."

As stated, my take on it is, in statements like the above, which clearly references "Grand Lodge of Virginia," or has some other content which would specifically identify the content as pertaining to a particular Grand Lodge, the more specific term "Bible" is apt to be found. In statements pertaining to the broader concept of Freemasonry, and thus inclusive of jurisdictions where some other book may be in use, the expression "Volume of Sacred Law" tends to be used. And quite often, in making the specific statement, the general is included, probably as a more direct indication that they are speaking specifically and not generally, when referencing the use of the Holy Bible in their own lodges.

What I do NOT find in Masonry, is any idea expressed anywhere, which resonates with your continued attempts to suggest the idea of "part of the VSL." Instead, the expressions found in Masonry all show the same tendency to speak of each book as being itself a VSL, NOT as VSL being the whole and the individual book being the part:

In some Lodges in other countries, the altars of Masonry have more than one volume of the Sacred Law on them. . . (MasonicWorld.com)
For your claim to be true, this would have to read "several parts of the VSL" in place of the bolded portion.

To agree with your claim, this statement would have to say that to the Christian, the Holy Bible is "part of the VSL," not that "the VSL 'IS' the Holy Bible"; likewise, it would have to read that one choosing a substitute would take his obligation upon that work which to him is "part of the VSL," not the one which "to him IS" the VSL.

On that particular point, you are putting yourself out on a limb once again, just as you did with Jacob's Staircase, and with rectangular cubes. You may choose to speak of "part of the VSL" all you wish; but in doing so, you remove yourself from any Masonic recognition of ore expression of the term, for there is no source you can find in Masonry which employs that expression as part of its terminology. So be my guest, dance all the way out to the end of the limb until it breaks again, and you tumble back to earth and reality once more. I can only assume you must love the way it feels when your head quits hurting.

Your attempt to frame it differently, of course, is just one more example of your refusal to be corrected on any point. And we see where that's gotten you: page after page of wasted bandwidth with nonsense about staircases in Jacob's dream, non-existent rectangular cubes, and self-declared "official" status accorded pictures in monitors.
 
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Skip Sampson

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All i was pointing out was, it is NOT on the website, and therefore may NOT be presumed to be current, which is precisely what YOU are doing: presuming that the 1994 booklet is still current, without any sort of evidence upon which to base it.
Not quite correct. As you've seen by now, the current training package refers one back to the LSME booklets, thus making them current. As to the 1994 booklets, unless you know that they have been reissued under a new date, your comment is baseless. We'll see what date they carry when the FL GL sends me my copies. It is my guess that they are the same booklets but with a new date. We'll see.

That statement, coupled with the fact that the answer to one of the test questions is answered directly from the Mentor's Manual, show that it is considered to be on a par level with the booklets.
Oh, I certainly agree that the MM and LSME booklets are on par. After all, the agree that the Great Light in Masonry is the VSL. BTW, the study guide the test taker is referred to does not appear to answer the question you referred to. Probably an oversight on their part.

Anyone can see, the first statement addresses "Freemasonry" in the broader sense.
And anyone can also see that the second sentence does not mention the great light at all, just notes the Bible must be on the altar. The MM does not connect the two, nor does the LSME booklets.


BTW, here are two quotes from the Study Guide (module II) that apply:
THREE GREAT LIGHTS: The Holy Bible, Square & Compasses.
Note this conflicts with the direct statement of the MM:
The Great Light of Freemasonry is the Volume of the Sacred Law and it is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Lodge.
Interesting contradiction, I'd say, especially in light of this quote from the Study Guide:

VOLUME OF SACRED LAW:The Holy Book placed upon the Altar in a Masonic Lodge, the correct term to be used Masonically for all holy books.
You can take it either way: it either means each is THE VSL or that they all incorporate the VSL, meaning each is a part. I go with the second view.

The MM is not trying to establish the general term VSL in that statement. It is simpy prefacing the paragraph with it, and using the general to take it to the specifics which follow.
I don't agree. I think it's a blunt statement that the VSL, in all its parts, is the Great Light and that the Bible is used as such in Florida only because it falls under the general category of the VSL, one way or another. In Masonry, the Bible is just a symbol of the will of God and has a single use: to solemnify the oaths of the candidates.


And since any part of the VSL is acceptable, any GL can change to something other than the Bible should they wish.

BTW, the VA GL makes the same statement as does Fl in their 1986 MM. Not surprising as both VA and FL draw theirs from Indiana. Va notes that the VSL is the Great Light, that the Bible is always on the altar and that a candidate can have his own sacred book there during his obligation. This only makes sense is if they all are part of the VSL, meaning they equally represent the symbolic meaning noted above. Cordially, Skip.
 
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Rev Wayne

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Not quite correct. As you've seen by now, the current training package refers one back to the LSME booklets, thus making them current.


Not quite correct. In doing so, it does not reference dates, so if the booklets HAVE been updated, then the reference would be to THOSE, not to the ones you cherish. Again, you presume much more than you can state with accuracy--or with the one thing you can't seem to furnish: evidence.

We'll see what date they carry when the FL GL sends me my copies.


At least then, you can state matters with knowledge, rather than uncorroborated claims.

It is my guess that they are the same booklets but with a new date.

First presumption, now guesswork. You sure do have unique methods for a "trained researcher."

The funny part about all your circumlocution on the matter is, it doesn't matter one way or the other, because the Mentor's Manual STILL contains the piece I cited, and therefore you still have to reckon with the fact that the passage you tried to dispute in it, is still present in a currently-used Masonic education manual in Florida.

But even more hilarious is the way you guys are always trying to diss Masonry because you claim it's not compatible with Christian faith, and then go to all this unwarranted trouble trying to do everything you can to make sure you REMOVE the Bible from Masonic content. You guys constitute one of the most confused organizations there is, Antimasonic Marauders Association.

After all, the agree that the Great Light in Masonry is the VSL.

Still stopping before you get to the good part, I see. Actually, you're wrong, they don't agree, because one states the matter as you just stated it, and says no more; but the other one clearly goes beyond the general statement, to point out the specifics as it applies to US lodges:

The Great Light of Freemasonry is the Volume of the Sacred Law and it is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Lodge. The Grand Lodges of the United States use the Holy Bible as the V.S.L. on their altars.

There it is again, the Great Light of Florida Masonry, just like it is in every U.S. Grand Lodge, is the Holy Bible. The Holy Bible IS "the V.S.L. on their altars."

Somehow you keep missing that every time it's put right in front of you. I really don't know quite how to get it across to you in a manner in which you won't keep missing it. Guess I'll have to go the extra mile, and check with the Florida GL and see if they have a copy of it in Braille, just for you.

Note this conflicts with the direct statement of the MM:
The Great Light of Freemasonry is the Volume of the Sacred Law and it is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Lodge.

It's not a "conflict." It's just that one (the MM) provides more information than does the other, and goes on to IDENTIFY Florida's VSL, while the other does not.


You're always going to take it the way it never was intended, you've given ample evidence of that on every single topic you've tackled for months now. Your error in this instance is, you take "all holy books" to be a corporate reference. I think it's more than clear that Masonry doesn't do that, as can be seen from the references I provided earlier, from references to "another VSL," and similar instances. Yes, it states that it is applied to "all holy books." It's just not applied in group fashion.

Allow me to illustrate what's wrong with your claim:

Suppose some hypothetical person--and for easy reference's sake, we'll refer to this hypothetical person as "Skip"--is unfamiliar with the Bible, to the point that they do not have a clue what the individual divisions of the Bible are called. To this person, one might say, "'Book' is the correct term to use for all the individual divisions of the Bible."

By your claim, that statement would be declaring simply that the parts are to be taken together as one whole, and THAT is called a "book." But the intent of the person trying to get the point across was, that EACH of the 66 divisions (despite the fact that the description used the sometimes inclusive word "all") is designated a "book." Thus we speak of "the books of the Bible."

I submit that the statement you cited above is no different. When it states that Volume of Sacred Law is the correct term for "all holy books," it is simply saying they are all "VSL's."

Masonic usage, as I've already shown, confirms it. In fact, even the statement you cited--when read and understood correctly--also confirms it.

In Masonry, the Bible is just a symbol of the will of God and has a single use: to solemnify the oaths of the candidates.


All anyone has to do to show how incorrect THAT statement is, is to read the rituals and see how saturated and permeated they are with biblical content and principle. And you forget, even Mike has confirmed for us that Masons are told to "make it the rule and guide of their faith, and to "follow the light you therein shall find."

And even if one were to argue that this exhoration could not (or would not) be given to someone in one of the overseas lodges, the fact still remains, that the ritual content remains, and it is focused upon the erecting of a Temple to God in Israel during the reign of King Solomon--and the appropriate places in the Bible where that story is found, are referenced in the rituals as well. There have been a couple of feeble efforts made to try to claim otherwise, in regard to the Grand Lodges of Turkey and India--both of which were shown to have articles on their Grand Lodge websites discussing Masonry, which revealed the content of their rituals to be focused on the same materials. (And one of the Grand Lodge Officers in India wrote an article calling the Bible the "Great Light of Masonry")




You're ignoring the significant parts again, like "another VSL" and "substitute," and all those other little indications that show EACH ONE to be VSL, whether by designation as the Bible is in every GL in the US, or whether by substitution, whereby the express wishes of the individual are provided for in allowing a substitution for HIM.

This only makes sense is if they all are part of the VSL, meaning they equally represent the symbolic meaning noted above.
Now THERE'S a good one for you: You going round and round in circles with this nonsense about "part of the VSL," and then trying to tell us what "makes sense." There's an even more sensible answer to it, but you seem unable (or more likely, unwilling) to grasp it: The Bible remains there because it is the VSL of Virginia; but the candidate is allowed to have a substitute present because the VSL of the Grand Lodge of Virginia is not the VSL of his own choosing. No one is required to obligate upon a book that is not the book of his own faith. It's the same practice that we find in U.S. courts, where witnesses are allowed to be sworn in for testimony in court, on the sacred book of their choosing.


And "part of the VSL," as already pointed out, is an un-Masonic usage that so far you have not managed to show even one single instance where it is used, nor have you presented anything convincing enough to even try to claim it ought to be as you say.

That's the problem with going off on these wild goose chases you seem to fancy: you always end up barking up the wrong tree, which is probably why you so often end up out on a limb.
 
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Skip Sampson

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At least then, you can state matters with knowledge, rather than uncorroborated claims.
That's a laughable charge. To state that quotes from the FL LSME are 'uncorroborated' is illogical. To do so, you would have to be able to show that the quotes are no longer in the document, which you cannot do. Aside from that, the statements about the VSL in the LSME were corroborated: by the MM.


I seem to recall an instance when you were trying to tell me that your 1980's version of the LSME overruled my 1994 version. Such evasions are what you do when you get cornered, again.

You sure do have unique methods for a "trained researcher."
You again show your ignorance. Researching is like putting a jigsaw puzzle together without knowing what the real picture should look like. Sometimes you don't have all the pieces, forcing you to 'guess,' if you will, about the final product, from the pieces you have. It's standard research and analysis. Whether or not the 'guess' is true or not will be seen shortly. Then you can complain, or apologize, depending on what I find out.


trying to do everything you can to make sure you REMOVE the Bible from Masonic content.
Untrue. We just understand that its presence there is just a veneer to cover the fibreboard of Masonic thinking. And since the Bible can be replaced with any other part of the VSL, and the degree altered accordingly, its real meaning in Masonry becomes obvious.


Masonic ritual certainly does have many stories from the Bible in its rituals, but these are distorted, one way or another, to glorify Masonry, not God.

Allow me to illustrate what's wrong with your claim:
Allow me to show where you are mistaken in your strawman. A person understanding the Bible knows that each section is called a book of the Bible; that is, a part of it. The books do not stand on their own in our day, but are understood to be a part of the Bible itself.


Masonically, the VSL, in general, is a symbol of the will of God. It's parts are seen as the various ways that will is expresed to man. Thus, any book a man might find as 'holy' comes under that general heading. In that it becomes a part of the VSL, and can be referred to as a VSL. The general Masonic view is that it is the VSL is termed the Great Light in Masonry, and each GL can choose which part of the VSL to use on their altars. The individual books fall under that general term, much like the individual names assigned to the various gods, true and false, fall under the term Great Architect of the Universe.

Moreover, the Masonic view of the VSL comes with the implication that all parts of it are all equally valid expressions of that will. The individual determines which book is 'holy' in his case. This is why Masonry doesn't really care which VSL is used in the ritual because its purpose is merely to solemnify the obligation. Lastly, I find the VSL concept to closely mirror the Islamic Mother of All Books, in which each holy book was seen to have the same author, but were including mistakes, except for the Koran.

As to ritualistic references to the bible, they can just as easily be directed to any other part of the VSL. Were Lodges really honest about it, they'd have them all there during all rituals, which would more properly convey the meaning of the VSL in Masonry. Cordially, Skip.
 
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