Biblical Content and/or Christian Interpretation II: Monitorial

[Rev Wayne]

Skip,

Since you choose to ignore the request to stop disruption of this thread, and continue your inane assertions while refusing to do so in a separate thread, I have no choice but to take this to another thread myself. However, it would serve no purpose to create a thread titled "Jacob's Staircase, Rectangular Cubes, and Other Assorted Samsonian Foppery," I will post my response to this in the thread with the title closest to a proper place for it. You can peruse it and respond (or not) at your convenience on the "Response to Antimasonic List" thread.

 

[Skip Sampson]

I have no choice but to take this to another thread myself.

As I said, you can run, but you can't hide. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

As I said, you can run, but you can't hide.

Good, then I'll do neither one.

These are from the Entered Apprentice Masonic Education booklet from the Grand Lodge of Nebraska, currently in use on their Grand Lodge website:

A candidate must pledge himself to a belief in God and to a belief in immortality, and he must reverence the Holy Bible as a rule and guide for his life. (Grand Lodge of Nebraska, Masonic Continuing Education Course: Entered Apprentice, p. 14)

How about that. Pretty much the same statement, and if I recall correctly, even the same page number. Some things just don't change, huh?

The Bible must be open on every Lodge Altar. (GLNE, MCEC: EA, p. 15)

The Three Great Lights of Masonry are the Holy Bible, Square and Compass. The Volume of the Sacred Law (no matter what religion) is an indispensable part of a Lodge. The Grand Lodges of the United States use the Holy Bible as the V.S.L. (Volume of Sacred Law) on their Altars. In our jurisdiction, a candidate may request to have his own sacred book present on the Altar with the Bible during his degree ceremonies. The open Bible signifies that we should regulate our conduct according to its teachings because it is the rule and guide of our faith and is a symbol of man’s acknowledgment of his relation to Deity. (GLNE, MCEC: EA, p. 20)

Freemasonry makes extensive use of symbolism and allegory. A general study of symbolism is recommended to every Mason. Research into the historical uses and meanings of symbols utilized in the rituals, as well as a comparative study of mythology, provides a sure foundation for Masonic education. Especially recommended to Masonic researchers is a working knowledge of the stories from the Bible. (GLNE, MCEC: EA, p. 22-23)

There are numerous references to stones throughout the Bible which allude to a link between the stone, the sacred, and spirituality. In Isaiah 28:16 we read: “Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: …” In Psalm 118: 22 we find: “The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.” Also, in Revelation 2:17 we read: “To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.” We also read (Genesis 28:11) that when Jacob had his vision of the angels and the ladder reaching to heaven, he used a stone as a pillow. After he awoke: “Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. And he called the name of that place Beth-El (God’s House).” (GLNE, MCEC: EA, p. 23)

 

[Skip Sampson]

These are from the Entered Apprentice Masonic Education booklet from the Grand Lodge of Nebraska, currently in use on their Grand Lodge website:

Wayne, much better. These are indeed GL authoritative documents and certainly do carry weight. However, comma....

A candidate must pledge himself to a belief in God and to a belief in immortality, and he must reverence the Holy Bible as a rule and guide for his life.

That's nice, but the reverence part is not a qualification to join, as this quote, from the same booklet, which falls under the section entitled Qualifications of a Petitioner, indicates:

The qualifications to be a Mason are clear and distinct. There are physical, moral and spiritual qualifications. In Nebraska, the petitioner must be a man of at least 18 years of age. He must be free of any previous felonious criminal convictions and be of good moral character. He must also believe in a Supreme Being and the immortality of the soul. (pg. 26)

This is backed up by the petition itself:

The petitioner respectfully represents that he is prompted solely by a favorable opinion conceived of the Institution, a desire for knowledge, and a sincere wish to be serviceable to any lodge, society, or institution that shall provide as a precedent that one shall be a Master Mason in good standing, such as to his fellow man, and freely and voluntarily presents himself as a candidate. He further declares that he believes in the existence of a Supreme Being. He promises, if acepted, to cheerfully conform to all the regulations and ancient usages of the Fraternity. (NE GL, Rev 3/10)

And by this statement from the website:

To join us, you must meet the following qualifications and be accepted by a lodge:

• Be a man, 18 years of age or older;
• Believe in a Supreme Being;
• Be able to read and write English; and
• Lived in the state for at least six months.
• In addition, two members of the lodge you wish to join must recommend you for membership. (under the 'Join' heading on the home page)

Note the following comments on the VSL for more info as to why 'reverence for the Bibe' is not really a requirement for anyone, except, perhaps, in a very narrow sense. As to this quote, you should have considered further its implications:

The Three Great Lights of Masonry are the Holy Bible, Square and Compass. The Volume of the Sacred Law (no matter what religion) is an indispensable part of a Lodge. The Grand Lodges of the United States use the Holy Bible as the V.S.L. (Volume of Sacred Law) on their Altars. (pg. 20)

Notice its equation of the Bible with the VSL. This later quote wraps the question up:

The Three Great Lights are also consistent with the three-tier system of Blue Lodge Masonry. One way of interpreting the triple symbolism is seeing human nature as divided into three parts – body, mind, and soul with a Degree for each part. In the same way, the Three Great Lights are the guiding principles of the three natures: the Square to the body, the Compass to the mind, and the Volume of Sacred Law for the soul. (Pg. 21)

Notice it states that one of the Great Lights is the VSL, not the Bible.

Especially recommended to Masonic researchers is a working knowledge of the stories from the Bible.

You know, that's the same emphasis a children's Sunday School would have. What an interesting comparison! Would have been nicer for the Craft to point the Mason to the God in that document, but that would have been unMasonic.

We also read (Genesis 28:11) that when Jacob had his vision of the angels and the ladder reaching to heaven,

Of course, we know by now that a stairway was what was involved in that story, so it's just another example of the similarity between Freemasonry and childrens' Sunday School. What a concept; thanks for bringing it up. Another point is the statement which preceded it:

There are numerous references to stones throughout the Bible which allude to a link between the stone, the sacred, and spirituality. (pg. 21)

Since Freemasonry takes that view, I'd suggest they also include Matt. 18:6, which I think is directly relevant to so-called 'Christian Masons.' BTW, here are a few other quotes from that document:

The Lambskin Apron. The Apron is at once an emblem of innocence and the badge of a Mason. By innocence is meant clean thinking and clean living, a loyal obedience to the laws of the Craft and sincere good will toward one’s Brethren. (pg. 21)

In Masonry, the Lodge is the center of activity. It is symbolically the Temple of Solomon. All degree work (ritual) and advancement is done within the Temple. The Temple is considered to be an exact replica of the divine world. It is sacred; it is the center of the universe. Its structure, furnishings, dimensions, and proportions – its architecture - are a mirror image of the Divine. Usually a temple is high upon the mountain (to be closest to God) and is considered the center of the cosmos. It is a sacred space, a place out of the ordinary. The Temple is the place where the human is most likely to encounter the Divine. (pg. 23)

"What is this world which is thus represented? It is the world of Masonry it is the Masonic career from its beginning to its end, including all that lies between. The Great Pillars through which the candidate enters it represent birth and signify that in taking the First Degree he is being born into the Masonic life. Already he has been born into other worlds, physical and social, but now he is being born into Masonry; therefore he is poor, blind, and helpless, like a babe in its mother's womb. As one of our scholars has said of the candidate, '' The old life with all its accessories has dropped from him as completely as though he were dead. He is to enter on a new life in a new world.'' ... Its members cannot make it over to suit their own whims or to conform to their own purposes; they must make themselves over to it, must conform themselves to its requirements. ... The world of Masonry is a complete world. Existence in it is fully rounded, and it satisfies the needs of the whole man— physical, moral, intellectual, social and spiritual. ... In taking his First Degree an Apprentice takes his first step into such a life as this; passes through the portals of birth into such a world as this; passes from the darkness, destitution and helplessness of the unenlightened world into the light and warmth of such an existence as this. (pgs. 24 - 25)

​

What a group! I wonder how many Masons actually read this stuff and consider its implications? Maybe those that do are part of the reason Masonry's membership has nosedived over the last decade. Anyway, thanks for bringing up the reference; it is indeed a good one. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Skip, it says what it says, and nothing you say has countered that in any way. It names the Three Great Lights as Holy Bible, Square, and Compasses (p. 20); it says the candidate must "reverence the Holy Bible as a rule and guide for his life" (p. 14); it says the Bible must be open on every lodge altar (p. 15); it "especially" recommends the stories of the Bible to any Masonic researcher (p. 22-23); and it gives direct citation, with references, from several passages found in the Bible (p. 23).

These are the things stated in this Masonic education booklet, in current use in Nebraska. I haven't seen you present one thing that counters the fact that these are most certainly (1) biblical/Christian in content/interpretation, and (2) Grand Lodge-generated--which, of course, are the only two specifications called upon when the thread began.

To illustrate the implications of the challenge you have attempted:

Since "biblical/Christian in content/interpretation" was the standard; and since you do seem to be trying to counter this at every point; you have put yourself in the ridiculous position, with the direct citation of the blbical passages found on page 23, of trying to counter whether those are biblical. In other words, trying to claim that the Bible is not Biblical! You really do get out there when you start with the tangents.

All the other things you have tried to address are irrelevant, not germane to the thread or its purpose, and probably an attempt to sidetrack the thread for another 5 pages, which can only happen if I engage you in the off-topic points you make. Sorry, been there, done that, not going there again.

 

[O.F.F.]

Way to go Skip, you nailed him again!

But the real kicker is this one:

"What is this world which is thus represented? It is the world of Masonry it is the Masonic career from its beginning to its end, including all that lies between. The Great Pillars through which the candidate enters it represent birth and signify that in taking the First Degree he is being born into the Masonic life. Already he has been born into other worlds, physical and social, but now he is being born into Masonry; therefore he is poor, blind, and helpless, like a babe in its mother's womb. As one of our scholars has said of the candidate, '' The old life with all its accessories has dropped from him as completely as though he were dead. He is to enter on a new life in a new world.'' ... Its members cannot make it over to suit their own whims or to conform to their own purposes; they must make themselves over to it, must conform themselves to its requirements. ... The world of Masonry is a complete world. Existence in it is fully rounded, and it satisfies the needs of the whole man— physical, moral, intellectual, social and spiritual. ... In taking his First Degree an Apprentice takes his first step into such a life as this; passes through the portals of birth into such a world as this; passes from the darkness, destitution and helplessness of the unenlightened world into the light and warmth of such an existence as this. (pgs. 24 - 25)

If that doesn't sound, to a discerning Christian, like a substitution for the biblical 'Born Again' experience, then I don't know what else could.

Unfortunately for Wayne, since he is an educated man with a post-graduate degree from seminary, we must assume he knows better than to NOT read the material he defends. So assuming that he does, in his quest to find supporting material to defend his position as he ignores that which doesn't meet his filter, he comes across as a deceiver. As a result, it makes him appear to be one of the false teachers the Bible refers to that will be revealed during these last days (2 Peter 2:1-3) as he subtly -- intentionally or not -- introduces destructive heresies. Thanks again, for keeping him honest!

All the other things you have tried to address are irrelevant, not germane to the thread or its purpose

But they are germane to our purpose, which is to prove that Masons like you are false teachers who fail miserably in trying to show compatibility with Freemasonry and biblical Christianity. What makes you the worst kind, is the fact that you hide behind the title "pastor" in your futile attempt to defend the indefensible. And, if you think we are NOT going to reveal the heresy you try to hide in order to trick readers into thinking that the teachings of Freemasonry are biblical, then you better think again.

 

[Rev Wayne]

If that doesn't sound, to a discerning Christian, like a substitution for the biblical 'Born Again' experience, then I don't know what else could.

Really? Even though it says this?

Already he has been born into other worlds, physical and social, but now he is being born into Masonry

So apparently your idea of the "biblical born again experience," is that it is "physical" or "social?"

If that doesn't sound, to a discerning Christian, like your whole framework for interpreting Christianity is way o.f.f.-kilter, then I don't know what else could.

Unfortunately for you, since you are either biblically illiterate or perhaps just simply illiterate, we must assume you don't have a clue what you read about ANYthing, and should not be involved in critiquing anything beyond first grade primer level.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Skip, it says what it says, and nothing you say has countered that in any way.

Well, it does indeed say what it says, and it's not me that's countering it. It's the Grand Lodge of Nebraska.

It names the Three Great Lights as Holy Bible, Square, and Compasses (p. 20)

Well, not quite. Here's what also it says:

In the same way, the Three Great Lights are the guiding principles of the three natures: the Square to the body, the Compass to the mind, and the Volume of Sacred Law for the soul. (Pg. 21)

This only makes sense under the Masonic view that the Bible is part of the VSL and the VSL is the true Great Light, rule & guide and 1/3 of the furniture of the lodge. It's pretty clear to all by now, except for you.

I haven't seen you present one thing that counters the fact that these are most certainly (1) biblical/Christian in content/interpretation, and (2) Grand Lodge-generated--which, of course, are the only two specifications called upon when the thread began.

I don't think you called upon any of that at the start of this thread. Besides, much of your material is not GL generated. Finally, you yourself commented upon the posts, leaving the door open for others to do the same.

Sorry, been there, done that, not going there again.

Ah, yes: declare victory and go home. Given the previous post, that's probably your wisest course of action. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Way to go Skip, you nailed him again!

Yeah, but it's kinda like beating up on a blind man. He really doesn't have the perceptiveness to see what a disaster he's calling down on himself.

But the real kicker is this one:

I've seen it in other GL publications, and seems to be a common view. Unfortunately, it's one many Masons don't think about. If any of them even think about what Masonry teaches. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

It names the Three Great Lights as Holy Bible, Square, and Compasses (p. 20)
Well, not quite. Here's what also it says:

In the same way, the Three Great Lights are the guiding principles of the three natures: the Square to the body, the Compass to the mind, and the Volume of Sacred Law for the soul. (Pg. 21)

Exactly. By the time it states what you just quoted (p. 21), the booklet has already identified the Three Great Lights as Holy Bible, Square, and Compasses (p. 20).

This only makes sense under the Masonic view that the Bible is part of the VSL and the VSL is the true Great Light, rule & guide and 1/3 of the furniture of the lodge.

No, this makes sense because the VSL has already been identified prior to that point, as the Holy Bible. Nothing happened in between the two statements to nullify that. So by the time it gets to what YOU quoted, it's already established that the VSL in Nebraska IS the HOLY BIBLE. The Bible, then, is the true Great Light.

You need to pay closer attention to what you read. Earlier, it took you seven pages before you forgot a significant point that had already been made. This time it only took you one. Whatever your problem is, it's progressive, apparently.

I don't think you called upon any of that at the start of this thread.

This is a breakout thread following the same topic as its sister thread, which began on the same premises, the sole difference being, this one was in deference to your preference for Grand Lodge material. Not only do the same parameters apply as stated in the original thread, I have also repeated this more than once to those who keep going off on other tangents. If you wish to have a thread with a different purpose or direction than this, feel free to initiate one. But you don't call the shots on this one.

That's nice, but the reverence part is not a qualification to join, as this quote, from the same booklet, which falls under the section entitled Qualifications of a Petitioner, indicates

Again, you weren't paying attention:

A candidate must pledge himself to a belief in God and to a belief in immortality, and he must reverence the Holy Bible as a rule and guide for his life. (Grand Lodge of Nebraska, Masonic Continuing Education Course: Entered Apprentice, p. 14)

I post a statement about a requirement stated for a candidate, and you respond with an attempt to "counter" with a citation dealing with a "petitioner." Typical. Apparently you see no difference? Or maybe you just never considered that requirements stop with the petitioning stage? That could hardly be logical, given there are proficiency requirements at each stage also.

 

[O.F.F.]

All it takes is a honest Mason to put the false teaching of Wayne to shame. Wayne knows this Mason who frequently posts on the CARM board. Notice how he refutes Wayne's claim in his most recent post there. Heck, for a moment, I thought he was actually addressing Wayne.

Your characterization of "using" the Bible is off the mark. Every lodge has as its center-point, the Volume of Sacred Law. This may be the Holy Bible (In the USA, The King James Version, Old and New Testaments, without addition or deletion). There may be one or more different VSLs on the altar. In Saudi Arabia, the Holy Bible and the Holy Qu'Ran, are side by side on the altar. In Singapore, there are nine(9) different VSLs on the altar. Belief in the Holy Bible, is NOT required for masonic membership. There are many masons, worldwide, who are of other religions, and these men do not accept the Holy Bible to be revealed scripture.

The Grand Lodge of Indiana, has recommended the following readings from the Holy Qu'Ran, to be read, when a Muslim takes the degree work:

For the Entered Apprentice Degree

And hold fast all together, by the Rope which God stretches out for you, and be not divided amongst yourselves; and remember with gratitude God's favor on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in Love, so that by His Grace, ye became Brethren; and ye were on the brink of the Pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth God make clear His Signs to you: that ye may be guided.

For the Fellow Craft Degree

God! There is no god but He, -- the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him, nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there that can intercede except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

For the Master Mason Degree

Truly Strong is the grip of thy Lord. It is He Who creates from the very beginning, and He can restore (life). And He is the Oft-Forgiving, full of loving-kindness, Lord of the Throne of Glory, Doer (without let) of all that He intends.

==

Freemasonry is a secular, man-made organization, that exists quite openly. The answer to your second question is "no". There are many Jewish Masons, Reform, Orthodox, etc. none of the men accept the New Testament as revealed scripture. These men are welcomed into our fraternity, notwithstanding.

The answer to the third question is: Mormon Masons, take their oath on the entire Holy Bible, Old and New Testaments, King James Version. Jehovah's witness masons are free to use the version of the Holy Bible they prefer. Hindu Masons, use the Zend-Avestas,etc. If this is a problem to you, then you should have nothing to do with Freemasonry. Men of many different religions, other than Christianity are welcomed and accepted. Masonry is a world-wide society of friends and brothers, united under the all-seeing eye of God.

Charles E. Martin 32° Mason from Kentucky

 

[Rev Wayne]

You seem to have conveniently "forgotten" to include some other things he said, too:

The Grand Lodge of Indiana, has recommended the following Surahs (Verses) from the Holy Qu'Ran, when a Muslim takes the degrees of Freemasonry.

Keep in mind, these are only "recommended" by the GL of Indiana, no lodge is compelled to use them, and no lodge outside of Indiana jurisdiction is required to use them either.

You seem to have "forgotten," too, that this claim about Indiana was never verified.

That's not the only thing you "forgot" to bring up from that site. Here's what you claimed when it posted, and the response to what you claimed, by the one who posted it to begin with:

YOU: What you have proven is:

The Bible is NOT the ONLY Great Light of Masonry

HIM: --I have proven NO such thing. There are three (3) great lights in Masonry. There are three (3) lesser lights.

YOU: The Koran is still the Great Light of Islamic Masonry

HIM: --There is NO such thing as Islamic Masonry. I lived in Saudi Arabia for a year, and attended lodge there. I have lived in Iraq and Afghanistan for five years. Masonry is a non-sectarian organization, composed of men from many different faith backgrounds, don't you read my posts?

YOU: The Koran is still the required book on the altar in Islamic Masonry

HIM: --There is at least one(1) volume of sacred law on the altar in every lodge worldwide. In Saudi Arabia, the Holy Qu'Ran and the Holy Bible are side by side. In Singapore, there are nine(9) different volumes of sacred law on the altar, including the Holy Bible.

YOU: The described situation is the rule, not the exception in Islamic Masonry

HIM: --A meaningless comment. There is no such thing as "Islamic masonry".

YOU: And, those who apply for degree work in an Islamic lodge where the candidate(s) are Christian, they would allow such initiates to take their obligation on the Bible. However, the Koran would remain on the altar as the Great Light of Masonry in an Islamic lodge, and opened at the passages you've described above during the respective degree work.

HIM: --again, meaningless. Each new mason, or degree candidate, takes his obligation on the Volume of Sacred Law, that is sacred to the candidate!! Just like in a courtroom, an individual about to give evidence, would swear his oath on the book that is sacred to the individual.

 

[ChristianMasonJim]

Some anti-Masons have dismissed many of the citations posted here because they are either out-of-date, or they pre-date later revisions. If these attackers of Freemasonry are going to stand by that reasoning and dismiss such citations, then they must recant all accusations of Freemasonry in South Carolina being racist in the past. The Grand Lodge of South Carolina currently has no policies that are racist--none. While there may exist some Freemasons in South Carolina who may be themselves racist, they do not represent the non-racist position of the Grand Lodge of South Carolina.

 

[O.F.F.]

Some anti-Masons have dismissed many of the citations posted here because they are either out-of-date, or they pre-date later revisions. If these attackers of Freemasonry are going to stand by that reasoning and dismiss such citations, then they must recant all accusations of Freemasonry in South Carolina being racist in the past. The Grand Lodge of South Carolina currently has no policies that are racist--none. While there may exist some Freemasons in South Carolina who may be themselves racist, they do not represent the non-racist position of the Grand Lodge of South Carolina.

Jim, a Grand Lodge doesn't have to have official racist policies to be considered racist. All it has to do is practice it. The fact that they do not recognize their black brethren in Price Hall Masonry is the surest indication that they practice it today, same as they did in the past. This is confirmed in a recent article posted by one of your 'brethren in the south' on a Masonic website:

Yesterday the Grand Lodge of North Carolina officially passed by a vote of 642 yeas to 328 nays the Resolution for Mutual Recognition of the Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of North Carolina and Its Jurisdictions, Inc., according to an article posted on Bro. Chris Hodapp's blog on Friday.

"Bravo, brethren. Bravo," he wrote.

Brother blogger Palmetto Bug, a Mason working under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of South Carolina, writing in the comments section to the announcement, responded to the news by saying, "The train wreck continues," evidently refering to the past decade's trend towards recognition between maintream Masonry and Prince Hall Masonry.

The Grand Lodge of South Carolina, along with those of nine other states — all in the South — still remains steadfastly against mutual recognition between mainstream and Prince Hall Masonry, much to my continued embarrassment. I am a member of a Georgia lodge working under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of Georgia.

Besides South Carolina and Georgia, the mainstream grand lodges of Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Tennessee and West Virginia do not recognize Prince Hall Masons as "true and lawful brothers" or as even being Masons.

Within moments of my being raised a Master Mason in a Georgia lodge several years ago, I was official told, while the ceremony was still being conducted, that I was not to hold "Masonic discussion with clandestine Masons, and the only clandestine Masons that we know of are the black Masons."

I join with Bro. Chris and open-minded Masons throughout the world in saying "Bravo!" to the North Carolina Masons who have joined the 21st century by finally accepting brother as brother, based not on the color of his skin but the content of his heart.

NC Freemasons recognize Prince Hall as Brethren posted by "Widow's Son" at The Burning Taper

 

[ChristianMasonJim]

Jim, a Grand Lodge doesn't have to have official racist policies to be considered racist. All it has to do is practice it.

Ok, I accept your logic. So based upon that logic, Freemasonry, as I and many of my South Carolina Masonic brethren experience is completely compatible with Christianity because we do not view Freemasonry as a religion, we do not view the Apron lecture as having anything to do with Salvation by works, and when we pray to the GAOTU, we are individually praying to the Christian God. While our practice of Freemasonry may not be the official stance of Freemasonry in South Carolina, it is how it is practiced.

The fact that they do not recognize their black brethren in Price Hall Masonry is the surest indication that they practice it today, same as they did in the past.

Your statement completely false. The Grand lodge of South Carolina does not recognize Prince Hall Masonry as being regular, period. You know full well that many non-blacks are members of Prince hall Masonry, and those non-black members are not recognized as well. Further, many blacks are members of regular Masonic lodges, and according to the Grand Lodge of South Carolina, they are welcome in South Carolina lodges.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Further, many blacks are members of regular Masonic lodges, and according to the Grand Lodge of South Carolina, they are welcome in South Carolina lodges.

I can vouch for that, I've seen them first-hand, at a Masonic function.

The Grand lodge of South Carolina does not recognize Prince Hall Masonry as being regular, period.

Where I have a problem is in what I hear as the "justification" for it, which in every case I hear someone defend it, they try to base it on problems with the manner in which they received their charter. Since the UGLE is the one who issued the initial charter, and since they have thoroughly investigated it, yet eventually came down on the side of declaring them regular, I don't think that argument has a leg to stand on. I get the same feeling when I hear that one, that I do when hearing someone defend the display of Confederate flags by appealing to "tradition."

 

[ChristianMasonJim]

Where I have a problem is in what I hear as the "justification" for it, which in every case I hear someone defend it, they try to base it on problems with the manner in which they received their charter. Since the UGLE is the one who issued the initial charter, and since they have thoroughly investigated it, yet eventually came down on the side of declaring them regular, I don't think that argument has a leg to stand on. I get the same feeling when I hear that one, that I do when hearing someone defend the display of Confederate flags by appealing to "tradition."

Being a "Northerner" living in the South, my honest observation is that tradition and history are extremely important to the Southern culture, so much so that such justifications are common. While I may not specifically agree with some of the justifications, the fact is that it is a culture that is extremely resistant to change and correction, so such justifications are very real. Having spoken with a number of local Masons about this very issue, it is speculated that it will be "corrected" within the next 5-10 years. It is also clear that this will come only with patience.

 

[O.F.F.]

The Grand lodge of South Carolina does not recognize Prince Hall Masonry as being regular, period.

Jim, like Wayne said and I agree wholeheartedly, that's just an excuse. They have no real Masonic justification for not recognizing Prince Hall Masonry as regular.

Where I have a problem is in what I hear as the "justification" for it, which in every case I hear someone defend it, they try to base it on problems with the manner in which they received their charter. Since the UGLE is the one who issued the initial charter, and since they have thoroughly investigated it, yet eventually came down on the side of declaring them regular, I don't think that argument has a leg to stand on.

Most Grand Lodges in the U.S. now recognize them as regular, and as Wayne said, even the UGLE, the Mother of regular Freemasonry, has deem them regular too. All that remain are 9 Grand Lodges in the 'South' that have yet to acknowledge them as such, including yours of South Carolina.

Wayne: I get the same feeling when I hear that one, that I do when hearing someone defend the display of Confederate flags by appealing to "tradition."

Jim: Being a "Northerner" living in the South, my honest observation is that tradition and history are extremely important to the Southern culture, so much so that such justifications are common. While I may not specifically agree with some of the justifications, the fact is that it is a culture that is extremely resistant to change and correction, so such justifications are very real. Having spoken with a number of local Masons about this very issue, it is speculated that it will be "corrected" within the next 5-10 years. It is also clear that this will come only with patience.

For once, I agree with you both at the same time! But let's be perfectly honest here. It's taking way too long; just like the results of the Civil Rights Movement took way too long; and at too high of a price. So let's face it, the "justifications," "traditions," and the "need for patience" are ALL merely euphemisms designed to disguise racism.

 

[ChristianMasonJim]

Jim, like Wayne said and I agree wholeheartedly, that's just an excuse. They have no real Masonic justification for not recognizing Prince Hall Masonry as regular.

Questions of regularity should be taken up with the Grand Lodge, as I cannot provide those answers. That said, you really can't currently call the non-recognition racism, because the Grand Lodge's stated policy is clearly not currently racist. Yes, racism was a part of it in the past, and yes, there continues to be racism among some members, but given the current mixed-race nature of both Regular and Prince Hall Freemasonry Freemasonry, race is obviously not the issue from the Grand Lodge stated policy.

(And before someone says, "See, there WAS racism in SC Freemasonry, so Freemasonry is evil" please take a look to the churches, schools, and businesses in the South, and you will see that it is not exclusively Freemasonry that has gone down that path, but the entire Southern culture.)

Most Grand Lodges in the U.S. now recognize them as regular, and as Wayne said, even the UGLE, the Mother of regular Freemasonry, has deem them regular too. All that remain are 9 Grand Lodges in the 'South' that have yet to acknowledge them as such, including yours of South Carolina.

And my hopes are that sooner than later they do.

For once, I agree with you both at the same time!

Today is, indeed, a good day.

But let's be perfectly honest here. It's taking way too long; just like the results of the Civil Rights Movement took way too long; and at too high of a price. So let's face it, the "justifications," "traditions," and the "need for patience" are ALL merely euphemisms designed to disguise racism.

Of course we would all like many things to happen quickly, but the reality is that they don't. How long it takes is how long it takes. And we've already seen steps moving forward.

 

[O.F.F.]

Questions of regularity should be taken up with the Grand Lodge, as I cannot provide those answers.

The things I said were comments regarding the facts; I wasn't asking you or anyone any questions. But I'll ask you one now.

Of course we would all like many things to happen quickly, but the reality is that they don't. How long it takes is how long it takes. And we've already seen steps moving forward.

As you said earlier, you are from the North, so this really isn't your culture, you just happen to live in it now. It sounds like you are in agreement that recognition should take place. That being the case, since you insist on remaining a Mason, why not join a Prince Hall lodge in South Carolina until your Grand Lodge finally decides to do the right thing; as many others have done who have gone this way before you?