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Biblical Content and/or Christian Interpretation II: Monitorial

Rev Wayne

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To state that quotes from the FL LSME are 'uncorroborated' is illogical.

I didn't say the FL LSME was uncorroborated, I said your claims were.

I seem to recall an instance . . .


Adding to your uncorroborated claims, I see. If you can recall it, surely you can refind it and repost it instead of making even more unsubstantiated claims? As it stands, I'm not even certain what it is you're referring to.

Such evasions are what you do when you get cornered, again.


"Cornered?" You are obviously invested in this in some personal way, to characterize the give and take of debate as "cornering."

Researching is like putting a jigsaw puzzle together without knowing what the real picture should look like.
Well, you sure gave evidence of this one, when you kept trying to make the perfect ashlar out to be a rectangular solid, all the while "without knowing" that the real picture should be a picture of a cube.

Funny thing, too, when every description of the object in Jacob's vision stated it was a ladder, how YOU kept tenaciously insisting on your "guesswork" that it was a "staircase."

So don't try to con readers with your high opinions of your "research," I don't think they buy it any more than I do. What we have seen on exhibition from you is NOT "research," it's pure double-D stubbornness masquerading as "research," refusing to admit to a single point even when the evidence before you doesn't lend your "guesses" even one iota of support.

Whether or not the 'guess' is true or not will be seen shortly.

I suppose, provided you are able to do what claim, and simply order and receive them. You claim to have simply "called up" the Grand Lodge of Florida and requested these booklets. You and I both know you just can't simply do that. Even if one IS a Mason, there are STILL all the hoops to jump through as regards protocol, identification, etc. I know, because I've been through the process. How did you manage to convince them you were a Mason, and therefore properly entitled to receive any such materials? I mean, at least with Mike, we found out how he went about it: he pretended to be someone from another religion, with questions submitted to SC GL as though he was interested in joining. Naturally, he tried to wiggle out of it, but with two different email versions of the contact, it was naturally suspect.

(Not that it wasn't already suspect. Over the years, I have had a number of contacts with Grand Lodge, and never once has the WM been the one to reply, it's always the Grand Secretary. I've had some contacts with other GL's too, and it's standard with them as well.. In fact, in some of the larger jurisdictions, it won't even be the Grand Secretary, there will be yet another person who acts as a buffer zone for the GS, just as the GS functions as one for the GM. My own take on it is, it's the same thing Mike has always done with his presentation of cited material, always over-aggrandizing the source to make it appear weightier than it might otherwise appear.)

Then you can complain, or apologize, depending on what I find out.


I don't have anything to "apologize" for. Not only do you not have any proper understanding of "research," you don't seem to have any concept of what it is to engage in debate. Points in debate are either proven or conceded, not "apologized for."

In the case of the NC materials, you tried to pull the same gimmick, trying to reframe the discussion to make it appear that I was making dogmatic proclamations, when all I was saying all along was, "sure, it sounds logical, but let's see your evidence first." And when the evidence came in, what did I do? Immediately, as I had already indicated I WOULD do as soon as someone had evidence and not mere claims, I conceded the point when the statement on the matter was produced--even though the evidence came from Mike, and was considered suspect, as anything automatically is from him.

Speaking of that incident, I found some comments by you recently on that matter to be curious. To be sure we get exactly what you said, so I do not make the same error you do in referring to past conversations with vague references like "I seem to recall . . .," here is what you stated, post #173 above:

You certainly do not learn from your mistakes. Visit the NC GL website and see the issue date for their LSME, which is older than the 1994 documents. It hasn't been reissued yet, though it still remains current.

That wasn't what I recalled being said by the comments Mike posted, so I took another look at the email he allegedly received from the NC GL:

The bold-highlighted sentence was the main reason I posted to Mike conceding the point. The reply says they had NOT USED the LSME for some years. So whatever they have been doing in Masonic education in those intervening years, has been by some other method than the LSME. Your claim falls on that point. Something cannot "remain" current which has been both out of print and out of use for a number of years. "Remain" necessarily entails that something first has to "BE" that which it is to "remain." The NC LSME was not in use, and thus could not be said to "remain" current. The last time it was "current" would be the last year in which it had been used.

That makes it abundantly clear you are simply engaging in the same old antimasonic shape-shifting we've seen for years, offering first one argument, and then its antithesis, in the effort to make inconsistencies appear consistent. But with you it's more than that, it's more like, you can't let go of a single point, as if you fear your whole argument being a house of cards that can be dismantled by even the least point.

In that case, you were fighting tooth and nail to make the LSME 1969 version out NOT to be current; yet you flip-flop when the whim strikes you, and now start reversing what you were saying then, and trying to claim that the NC LSME booklet WAS current. As always, you engage in arguments of convenience. That's what inevitably happens with anyone who is more invested in the argument than they are in the truth.

So yeah, you can keep what passes for you as "research"--that is, "guesses" and jigsaw puzzles, bolstered by arguments of convenience that change direction with every passing wind (pardon the pun, but that's what your arguments are continually becoming like).

We just understand that its presence there is just a veneer to cover the fibreboard of Masonic thinking. And since the Bible can be replaced with any other part of the VSL

Just one more perfect example of the low level of discourse you seem to prefer: trying to label the biblical foundation of Masonic principles as a "veneer," while ignoring the fact of the veneer you keep plying with your un-Masonic term "part of the VSL."

Tell me, O great King of the Researchers: where did you do your research to come up with "part of the VSL," a term used NOWHERE in Masonry--or anywhere else--but by you?
 
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O.F.F.

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See that’s the crux of your problem in debating the issues. You’re so hung up in the trees (specific Grand Lodge practices) you fail to acknowledge the forest (general Masonic principles). In other words, you try to position the trees as the forest; which is to say, you try to position the practices of specific Grand Lodges as the standard for “regularity” when in actuality it’s the general Masonic principles, as outlined in the other thread I started, which constitute the standards of “regularity.”

You insist that the Holy Bible is the Great Light in Masonry and the VSL that MUST be on the altar of every lodge; as if that is a standard for “regularity” but you are wrong. Of the “Basic Principles” codified by the UGLE in 1929, #6 states that the VSL is the Great Light in Masonry and must be exhibited. And YOU KNOW that means ANY VSL can be the one exhibited as the Great Light in Masonry.

Going back and forth with Skip about how that principle is applied in Florida, South Carolina, or any other Grand Lodges in America is not only misleading, it totally misses the point. What’s worse is, you completely ignore the heretical implications of some of these general principles at the expense of stresses specific applications of them.

Wayne said:
The Great Light of Freemasonry is the Volume of the Sacred Law and it is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Lodge. The Grand Lodges of the United States use the Holy Bible as the V.S.L. on their altars.

In this case, the heretical implication of the first statement, which is the GENERAL RULE, places the Holy Bible on the same level as any other VSL of any other religion in the world. And, because of this GENERAL RULE, if any "regular" Grand Lodge in the U.S. decided -- for whatever reason -- to amend its Code to permanently replace the Bible with another VSL, it would NOT in anyway negatively effect their "regularity" or "recognition."

For a Christian, especially a pastor, to ignore the glaring implication of this Masonic principle and still remain a Mason, is not only a shame, it's a great compromise. I see no way that a genuine, Bible-believing, follower of Jesus Christ can say this brings glory to the One True Living God!
 
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Skip Sampson

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I didn't say the FL LSME was uncorroborated, I said your claims were.
And you are still wrong.


If you can recall it, surely you can refind it and repost it instead of making even more unsubstantiated claims?
It was on the Lodgeroom forum, under the VSL thread. You quoted this from a 1976 version of the LSME:
The 1994 version has this to say: I've added the bolding to show the change from 1976 to 1994. By 1994 the Bible was no longer considered to be the Great Light in Florida, which is probably why it was no longer mentioned in the LSME booklets of that date. I'd bet it's still not, but we'll see.

when you kept trying to make the perfect ashlar out to be a rectangular solid, all the while "without knowing" that the real picture should be a picture of a cube.
Untrue. I merely showed what the different GL's were promulgating in their monitors: the ashlars are rectangular solids. Take it up with them if you think they are in error. I'm sure they'll be happy to hear from you.


when every description of the object in Jacob's vision stated it was a ladder, how YOU kept tenaciously insisting on your "guesswork" that it was a "staircase."
Wasn't guesswork: Strong's indicates the proper translation of the word was 'stairway.' Again, take it up with them.


I suppose, provided you are able to do what claim, and simply order and receive them. You claim to have simply "called up" the Grand Lodge of Florida and requested these booklets.
That's not what I said. Since you clearly did not read the note, I'll include the quote:

I 'ordered' them via mail, and I'm sure they'll send them. What would they have to hide? At any rate, that's how I received the training documentation twice before from the FL GL. Send in an order form, enclose payment, get the books by return mail.

How did you manage to convince them you were a Mason, and therefore properly entitled to receive any such materials?
I didn't make any claims one way or another. Just noted I wanted to have the GL material to study. They were courteous enough to send them along, including the cipher ritual.



and never once has the WM been the one to reply,
Do you mean the GM? It's also been my experience that the GS is the one that does the work.


I don't have anything to "apologize" for.
Geez, we could make you a list.


In the case of the NC materials, you tried to pull the same gimmick,
No, we just pointed out where you were wrong. Of interest, the note you quoted indicates that the NC LSME is still current, and will remain so until the replacement is published. Whether it's used or not, it hasn't been replaced or withdrawn; therefore, it's current.


In that case, you were fighting tooth and nail to make the LSME 1969 version out NOT to be current;
Where did I say it was NOT current?


where did you do your research to come up with "part of the VSL," a term used NOWHERE in Masonry--or anywhere else--but by you?
Worshipful Master Potato Head gave it to me. You remember him, don't you? Cordially, Skip.
 
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Rev Wayne

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I'm not gonna try to figure out what you seem to think you just said in that garbled mess, because I don't think YOU even know. What I have cited from Grand Lodges had nothing to do with "regularity." They say what they say, and I have cited from a Florida Mentor's Manual, statements that SPECIFICALLY reference the Bible. Florida's Constitution and Code do the same thing, the BIBLE is the book required to be on the altar to open the lodge.

You insist that the Holy Bible is the Great Light in Masonry and the VSL that MUST be on the altar of every lodge
I don't "insist" on ANYTHING, I just point out, by direct citation, what LODGES are SAYING in their monitors. I can't help it if they say things YOU don't LIKE.

as if that is a standard for “regularity” but you are wrong. as if that is a standard for “regularity” but you are wrong.
If a Grand Lodge states in its manual that it is REQUIRED for a particular book to be there as the Lodge opens, then THAT is the book that MUST be there. It is true of EVERY Grand Lodge in the US. If it were not true, the MSA, Bessel.org, and other informative Masonic agencies would not DECLARE it to be so. The Mentor's Manual in Florida says the SAME THING they do:

The Grand Lodges of the United States use the Holy Bible as the V.S.L. on their altars.

But it is NOT a standard of "regularity," you are confusing the issue by introducing that accusation. The requirement for what book opens the lodge has to do with a lodge bein "just and legally constituted," NOT with "regularity." Those are two completely different issues.

You're making the same mistake Skip made, of trying to make this "one size fits all," when you and he BOTH know better. The VSL that gets placed on the altar that MUST be there to open the lodge, varies from one GL to another. But they ALL have one that is REQUIRED to be there as the lodge opens. In the US, that is the Bible. It's a simple concept, can't see why neither of you seem to be able to get your head around it. Here's how they state it in Ahiman Rezon in SC, which I KNOW you've seen before, but will repost it, since you don't seem to have understood it the first time:


An assemblage which does not meet these requirements is not "lawful," for "EVERY" lawful assemblage, it says, will have them: enough for the requisite quorum, Bible, Square, and Compasses, and a warrant or charter signed by Grand Lodge officers.

Likewise, Florida declares:


Of the “Basic Principles” codified by the UGLE in 1929, #6 states that the VSL is the Great Light in Masonry and must be exhibited.

What you IGNORE is, that the UGLE ALSO uses the Bible as the book that opens the lodge.

Go ahead, send your emails off to any Grand Lodge in the US, and ASK THEM whether or not they REQUIRE SPECIFICALLY that the BIBLE be on their altar or not. I already know what answer you will get: the same answer you would get from the MSA, or from any other Masonic information agency, that in the US it is the Bible that is required.

And I daresay that MOST of them will also have some statement included somewhere that declares that the Bible must be OPEN on the altar for the lodge to be considered "just and legally constituted."

You and Skip are BOTH engaging in cheap semantics, trying to employ the more general statements about "Masonry" as if the same generality applies, without specifics, when it comes to specific Grand Lodges. You YOURSELF stated earlier that the only reason you find the Bible on altars here is, because Christianity is the religion which predominates. What you both ignore is, that does NOT change the fact that "Grand Lodges in the US use the Holy Bible as their VSL."

Check with the Grand Lodges and you will also find, that when it comes to "substitute" VSL's, they are permitted, but are very limited in the usage that is allowed. The statements I have seen on the matter, allow the VSL of the candidate's choice (when it other than the Bible) to be placed on the altar ONLY for the specific moment at which the candidate takes his obligation, and it is removed afterward. There's a simple reason for the difference between the way the two are handled: the Bible IS the VSL in US lodges, and other books are NOT--they are substitutes chosen by an individual, for his obligation only.

We have had discussions about other Grand Lodges around the world, but you seem to have forgotten those. You've even cited declarations that say that in some other jurisdictions around the world, it would be some other book than the Bible that would BE the VSL. But you seem to have forgotten those as well.

Going back and forth with Skip about how that principle is applied in Florida, South Carolina, or any other Grand Lodges in America is not only misleading, it totally misses the point.

How the heck is it "misleading" to point out WHAT GRAND LODGES ARE DECLARING??????

What's "misleading" is your FAILURE to take into account that EVERY GRAND LODGE HAS A SPECIFIC VSL, AS DECLARED IN THEIR BY-LAWS, THAT APPLY SPECIFICALLY TO THEIR OWN JURISDICTION.

Take a look, for instance, since it was recently under discussion, at the Constitution of the GL of North Carolina, and its requirements for subordinate lodges. Regulation 38-2 states it just as plainly:



One thing is for sure, it doesn't happen here, because no US lodge declares any other book to "BE" its VSL. And you seem to forget that Grand Lodges are autonomous, what happens somewhere else does not affect what a Grand Lodge determines for itself in its own bylaws. The only place where a VSL is "placed on a level with any other VSL," is in GL's where more than one resides upon the altar. That would include Israel, which has the Old & New Testaments and the Koran, India, which has five, Singapore, which as I recall has seven, and some others as well, I imagine. Still doesn't change the fact that US lodges place only the Bible on the altar, nor does it change the fact that they do so by express requirement in their bylaws. And it certainly doesn't change the fact that the only "VSL" which has its contents cited in a manner which PERMEATES every ritual, is the Holy Bible.
 
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Rev Wayne

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By 1994 the Bible was no longer considered to be the Great Light in Florida,
Baloney. You are making proclamations based on a booklet which is not even THE place to find Masonic statements on such matters. Your error is more than an error, it's a downright farce. Let's look at Florida's bylaws and see what THEY say:


Both of these were on the books in copyrighted Masonic law of 2009. Not only that, the second of these statements contradicts your claim that it was "no longer considered to be the Great Light" in 1994, because this decision was rendered in 1941 as indicated, and has stood on the books since that point. Had it NOT been on the books since then, i.e., had it been "changed" as you claim, that would mean it would have to have been changed BACK at some point between 1994 and 2009, and the date the decision was made would have reflected that.
 
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Skip Sampson

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Let's look at Florida's bylaws and see what THEY say:
Good idea. Your first reference has nothing to do with the great lights; the second introduces a new concept. But here's one you missed:

Notice the statement is perfectly consistent with the LSME. As I've repeatedly pointed out, it is the VSL which is part of the furniture of the lodge and one of the three great lights. The Bible can be used only because it's a part of the VSL. Cordially, Skip.
 
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Rev Wayne

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Your first reference has nothing to do with the great lights; the second introduces a new concept.

"New concept?" Sorry, you missed the boat:

38.27 Use of Bible containing extraneous matter is not proper. The First Grand Light in Masonry is the unadorned Holy Bible. (1941 Proc. 82)
 
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Rev Wayne

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The right angle triangle is the symbol of the "Complete Man" referred to in the Bible as being composed of Body, Soul and Spirit. ("Symbolism of the Apron," Masonic Education Newsletter, GL of Ontario, Vol. 1 No. 1)









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Rev Wayne

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We continue to provide invocations at our assemblies, the grace at our banquets and the blessings at our functions by asking for aid and assistance in the name of Jesus Christ. (Masonic Education Newsletter, GL of Ontario, Vol. 4 No. 1)







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Rev Wayne

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Rev Wayne

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Rev Wayne

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Rev Wayne

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Rev Wayne

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Rev Wayne

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Rev Wayne

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Rev Wayne

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Rev Wayne

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Rev Wayne

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Rev Wayne

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THIRD SECTION. A LODGE
Is a certain number of Masons duly assembled, having the Holy Bible, Square and Compasses, with a charter or warrant empowering them to work. (GL of Maine, Blue Book)




On entering public buildings, the Bible, Square and Compasses and the Book of Constitutions should be placed in front of the Grand Master. (GL of Maine, Blue Book)


Bible, Square and Compasses, carried by an Acting or Past Master, supported by two Stewards. (List of items & persons for laying of a cornerstone, GL of Maine, Blue Book)

The Bible within a Circle. (List of jewels of a Past Master, GL of Maine, Blue Book)



A Bible is necessary in Blue Lodges in Maine. The Bible was adopted in its entirety as the Great Light in Masonry.[1858, p. 394; 1856, p. 125] (GL of Maine Constitution, 2010)


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