Bible Prophecy unfolding

[keras]

1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 About dates and times, my friends, there is no need for me to write to you, for you know perfectly well that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. Bible References: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses condensed.

The Day that Paul is talking about here cannot be the same Day as he mentions in 1 Thess. 4:13-18, or later in 2 Thess. 1-8 where he says that the Day Jesus Returns will not come until the Anti-Christ is revealed and enthrones himself in the Temple. We read in Rev. 13:5 that the Anti-Christ is allowed to continue for 42 months, then Jesus will Return and chain him up for 1000 years. This time period is confirmed by Daniel 12:7 and again in Rev. 12:6 as 1260 days. [The three and a half year Great Tribulation]
Therefore those who are alive when the Anti-Christ declares himself to be God in the new Temple, can know exactly how long it will be before Jesus will Return. That glorious event should not be unexpected for them.
So what Day is Paul talking about in 1 Thess. 5:1:2? It is NOT the Return of Jesus on the Great Day of the Sovereign Lord, Rev. 16:14 and as described in Zechariah 14:3-5, Matthew 24:30, or Rev. 19:11-14, but it IS the terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath – a Day that will come unexpectedly:
Isaiah 29:5-6 …suddenly, in an instant punishment will come from the Lord, with a great noise, storms, earthquakes and a devouring fire. Psalm 73:19, Jer. 4:20, Psalm 6:10
1 Thess.5:3 While they are saying: Peace and safety, then sudden destruction will come upon them and there will be no escape. Ezekiel 7:16, Romans 2:3

It seems that just before this terrible Day, there may be an agreement made between Iran and America, to limit their nuclear aspirations. The world will breathe a sigh of relief, but as we are told in Psalm 144:11…their every word is worthless, every oath is false. They will simply use that time of lessened vigilance to prepare their attack. The moment of attack is the trigger for the Lord to arise and instigate His judgement/punishment by fire, a massive CME sunstrike. Isa.30:26, 2 Peter 3:7
2 Thess. 1:8 In flaming fire, the Lord Jesus will mete out punishment to all those who refuse to acknowledge their Creator and do not obey Him. Hebrews 10:27
1 Thess. 5:4-9 But you, brothers, are not in darkness, that this Day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light, we do not belong in the darkness. So then let us keep sober and alert, armed with the breastplate of faith and love, and with the hope of salvation as a helmet. God has not destined us to suffer His wrath, but for the full attainment of salvation through our Lord, Jesus Christ. Rev. 3:10

The punishment of the nations, the next prophesied event, the Sixth Seal - Rev 6:12-17, Isaiah 2:12-21, Jer. 23:19, Ezekiel 30:2-5, Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:10 and many other vivid prophecies, that will literally be fulfilled on that Day of disaster for all the world. Everyone will be affected, Luke 21:35, and huge numbers of people will die. Isaiah 66:16, Jer. 9:22, Matthew 24:40. It will be God’s second ‘reset of civilization’, an event similar in scope to the flood in Noah’s day. At that time, only Noah knew what was going to happen, now only just a very few understand the truth, as Daniel 12:10 says. Mathew 24:37-39

We, who believe in God, trust Jesus for our salvation and rely on His protection, have the promise of 1 Thess. 5:9 that we will not suffer His wrath. Many prophesies say how the Lord will protect His people during His wrath against the wicked peoples. Isa. 43:2, Psalm 31:23-24, Jer. 17:7-8, Daniel 12:1

 

[ebedmelech]

Keras understands for sure


The preterist theology denies the coming judgment by the Lord upon the earth

In other words they scoff at His intent to judge this present world [Matthew 24:36-39] just as He has done twice before in the past [Genesis 1:2; Genesis 6]

Anyone who understands the preteristic dogma of varying degees know this truth

The folly of your whole response is Jesus will judge the quick and the dead...that's why He's returning.

Think a little bit...eternity in hell...what judgment is worse than that?

No one's scoffing, you just don't get the picture! Everyone that ever lived will be judged...so this idea that God will judge this world is basically error because listen to Jesus in Matthew 5:28, 29:
28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

No scoffing...just truth!

 

[keras]

Yes Ebed, we read the Bible and know there will be a final judgement of everyone who has ever lived. That will happen at the end of the 1000 year Millennium reign of Jesus. Revelation 20:11-13, the Great White Throne judgement.

But what you try to do is to say nothing happens between now and that event?
I have asked you before; why do you post on this prophecy forum if that is your belief?

 

[Straightshot]

"Think a little bit...eternity in hell...what judgment is worse than that?"


The Lord brings judgment upon an unbelieving world to make a point and for a purpose .... at His discretion ..... when He chooses .... not for us to deny

And all who ignore these things pass up the opportunity to get the message

Their destiny [Revelation 20:11-15]

To deny the Lord's sovereignty on His selective interventions into the affairs of humanity is folly, and this speaks of something gone astray in the minds of those who practice the same

To short cut His providence is not a good idea and there is most likely a hidden motive in the details

 

[ebedmelech]

"Think a little bit...eternity in hell...what judgment is worse than that?"


The Lord brings judgment upon an unbelieving world to make a point and for a purpose .... at His discretion ..... when He chooses .... not for us to deny

And all who ignore these things pass up the opportunity to get the message

Their destiny [Revelation 20:11-15]

To deny the Lord's sovereignty on His selective interventions into the affairs of humanity is folly, and this speaks of something gone astray in the minds of those who practice the same

To short cut His providence is not a good idea and there is most likely a hidden motive in the details

Except you can't find that in scripture as you interpret it! Such as the "Constantine idea". You can manufacture it...but that doesn't make it valid.

The error is your reading. When you read the OT you see God intervene to stop wickedness. When the world got to a point where God needed to act, HE DID!

The error comes into play when you see the history of the world after Christ ascended. You can point to several point where wickedness appeared to have the upper hand...and suddenly things changed. WHy do you think that is?

Take a look at WWI, WWII, which many Christians thought where the end, and even though NONE of that is explicitly prophesied in the scriptures, good prevailed.

Luther thought the Roman Catholic Church was the harlot of Babylon...he was wrong.

No one denies the Lord's sovereignty...you simply are reading things into scripture, that aren't there!

Let Jesus be Jesus...He's ruling and reigning as we speak!

 

[ebedmelech]

Yes Ebed, we read the Bible and know there will be a final judgement of everyone who has ever lived. That will happen at the end of the 1000 year Millennium reign of Jesus. Revelation 20:11-13, the Great White Throne judgement.

The "1000 year millennium started when Christ received "ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH" (Matthew 28:18). That's a very clear declaration of the Lord, that you either don't see or deny keras. Peter declared God made Jesus "BOTH LORD AND CHRIST"...so you have to grasp that first!

But what you try to do is to say nothing happens between now and that event?

No. I never said any such thing! What I did say is that what you think happens...won't happen.

I have asked you before; why do you post on this prophecy forum if that is your belief?

As I respond to your posts I point out that you read into scripture and "cherry pick" scripture to support your belief. I point out the failure of strictly literal interpretation...which is what you hold to.

I post in this forum because that's what it is...A FORUM. It's not your forum keras, it's a forum to post and debate eschatology.

 

[Straightshot]

"Except you can't find that in scripture as you interpret it! Such as the "Constantine idea"


The preterist waddles in historical information that is not even in the prophetic visions

The Lord's Word is the only thing that scores

.... and it is not your form either E

 

[ebedmelech]

"Except you can't find that in scripture as you interpret it! Such as the "Constantine idea"


The preterist waddles in historical information that is not even in the prophetic visions

A rather "off the cuff" response when one cannot effectively respond. It may satisfy you...but that's about it.

The Lord's Word is the only thing that scores

That's right...but is it how YOU score it???

.... and it is not your form either E

In my responses to others, you never find me asking anyone why they post in this forum...because it's a forum. That being the case your response is pretty much nothingness.

 

[Bible2]

Danoh said in post 3:

...til that clock starts back up again, sometime after...

...the fulness of this Unprophesied, Gentile mystery age be come in...

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

Danoh said in post 3:

...til that clock starts back up again, sometime after...

...the fulness of this Unprophesied, Gentile mystery age be come in...

By the "Gentile mystery age", do you mean the church age? If so, note that there is no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

Danoh said in post 3:

...til that clock starts back up again, sometime after...

...the fulness of this Unprophesied, Gentile mystery age be come in...

Do you mean after the end of this age of grace? If so, regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

 

[Bible2]

Job8 said in post 12:

What we do know is that serious efforts are being made to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews, after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them, and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to (mistakenly) perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being "defiled".

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

 

[Bible2]

Douggg said in post 15:

Okay, I see the rationale if the person were called the AntiIsrael person, or the AntiJew person, but how is any of those theories in action make him the Anti-Jesus person? The Antichrist.

Christians need to be aware that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that he is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will happen (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the first book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan may be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified himself with only the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

 

[keras]

The "1000 year millennium started when Christ received "ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH" (Matthew 28:18). That's a very clear declaration of the Lord, that you either don't see or deny keras. Peter declared God made Jesus "BOTH LORD AND CHRIST"...so you have to grasp that first!

No. I never said any such thing! What I did say is that what you think happens...won't happen.

As I respond to your posts I point out that you read into scripture and "cherry pick" scripture to support your belief. I point out the failure of strictly literal interpretation...which is what you hold to.

I post in this forum because that's what it is...A FORUM. It's not your forum keras, it's a forum to post and debate eschatology.

So Ebed, the Millennium started exactly what date?

You do deny the Prophetic Word. To say 'it won't happen' is sheer foolishness, because we await the end time fulfilments.
To accuse anyone of 'cherry picking' is again foolishness, unless it can be proven. Its only from your preterist perspective you think that.

The question I asked was 'why do you post on this forum? I didn't question your right to do so, but your reason.

 

[Bible2]

keras said in post 32:

So Ebed, the Millennium started exactly what date?

He believes it started (or had already started) by the time Jesus spoke Matthew 28:18.

But there are at least 8 scriptural reasons to read the specific, 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

For, first, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

-

Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, while currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), while currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), while there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving, unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), while by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the physical resurrection of the church will occur at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only physical resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Eighth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the 1st resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the 1st resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

 

[ebedmelech]

He believes it started (or had already started) by the time Jesus spoke Matthew 28:18.

But there are at least 8 scriptural reasons to read the specific, 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

For, first, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

-

Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, while currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), while currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), while there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving, unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), while by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the physical resurrection of the church will occur at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only physical resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Eighth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the 1st resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the 1st resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

Those are "eight contrived reasons" Bible2 thinks the millennium isn't ongoing. Yet Jesus reigns on the throne, as Peter declared in Acts 2, Paul declares it in 1 Cor 15, Ephesians 1, and Colossians 1...David declares it prophetically in Psalm 110, and finally Jesus declared it in Matthew 28:18.

Those are six scriptural reasons the millennium is now...and ends when Christ returns, executes judgment, and returns the reign to the Father!

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 34:

Yet Jesus reigns on the throne, as Peter declared in Acts 2, Paul declares it in 1 Cor 15, Ephesians 1, and Colossians 1...David declares it prophetically in Psalm 110, and finally Jesus declared it in Matthew 28:18.

Those are six scriptural reasons the millennium is now...and ends when Christ returns, executes judgment, and returns the reign to the Father!

Regarding 1 Corinthians 15, note that verses 23-28 don't require that Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father immediately at his 2nd coming, only that he will do that sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming. For right after his 2nd coming, "he must reign" (1 Corinthians 15:25) on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then he must defeat the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). Then he must physically resurrect and judge the unsaved of all times, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Only then will he have "put all enemies under his feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25), including death itself (1 Corinthians 15:26), which will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:14). Only after that will Jesus deliver up the kingdom to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24). Then a new heaven (a new 1st heaven/sky/atmosphere) and a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven to the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).

ebedmelech said in post 34:

Yet Jesus reigns on the throne, as Peter declared in Acts 2, Paul declares it in 1 Cor 15, Ephesians 1, and Colossians 1...David declares it prophetically in Psalm 110, and finally Jesus declared it in Matthew 28:18.

Those are six scriptural reasons the millennium is now...and ends when Christ returns, executes judgment, and returns the reign to the Father!

Regarding Matthew 28:18, note that Jesus isn't yet exercising his omnipotence to the extent of physically subjugating the kings of the earth, like he will do during the millennium (Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:9-21).

As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the 1st century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7), so he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise physically from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now there ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:9-21) with a rod of iron with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he is Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).

 

[ebedmelech]

Regarding 1 Corinthians 15, note that verses 23-28 don't require that Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father immediately at his 2nd coming, only that he will do that sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming. For right after his 2nd coming, "he must reign" (1 Corinthians 15:25) on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then he must defeat the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). Then he must physically resurrect and judge the unsaved of all times, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Only then will he have "put all enemies under his feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25), including death itself (1 Corinthians 15:26), which will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:14). Only after that will Jesus deliver up the kingdom to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24). Then a new heaven (a new 1st heaven/sky/atmosphere) and a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven to the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).

You're right. 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 doesn't "require"...IT SAYS IT WILL HAPPEN...verse 28:
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

That sums it up! Jesus will have SUBJECTED ALL THINGS to Himself after the judgment. He will then put Himself back in subjection to the Father.

Regarding Matthew 28:18, note that Jesus isn't yet exercising his omnipotence to the extent of physically subjugating the kings of the earth, like he will do during the millennium (Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:9-21).

Indeed Jesus is exercising every bit of his omnipotence! The folly of such thinking is evident because no one would say God was not in authority in the OT...even with all the evil that went on, when God decided to move on a situation WHO could stop Him?

Likewise when Jesus decides to move on a situation, WHO could stop Him? Like when Jesus sent angels to get Peter out of jail, or when Jesus SHOOK the jail to free Paul and Silas?

WRONG thinking Bible2!

As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the 1st century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7), so he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise physically from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now there ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:9-21) with a rod of iron with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he is Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).

Nope...Matthew 28:18...PLEASE note the tenses:
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

What "HAS BEEN"...IS!!!

 

[keras]

Ebed, no one is denying that Jesus has 'received all authority'.
But unless you have your head firmly stuck in the sand, it's kinda obvious that He isn't exercising that authority on earth as yet.
Read Revelation and be enlightened! It isn't until Rev. 19:6 and the Wedding Day of the Lamb comes that He enters His reign, then in v11 comes the visible Return to earth for His 1000 year reign. Rev 20:6

Calling out Bible2 for error when he posts ample scripture supporting his stance, shows you to be incapable of understanding the truth.
We are told this will happen to all who choose to believe false doctrines and theories. Isaiah 29:9-12, Isaiah 42:19-20

 

[ebedmelech]

Ebed, no one is denying that Jesus has 'received all authority'.
But unless you have your head firmly stuck in the sand, it's kinda obvious that He isn't exercising that authority on earth as yet.
Read Revelation and be enlightened! It isn't until Rev. 19:6 and the Wedding Day of the Lamb comes that He enters His reign, then in v11 comes the visible Return to earth for His 1000 year reign. Rev 20:6

Your head is in the sand with your illogical literal logic. Answer this question:

When was God ever not reigning?

Calling out Bible2 for error when he posts ample scripture supporting his stance, shows you to be incapable of understanding the truth.
We are told this will happen to all who choose to believe false doctrines and theories. Isaiah 29:9-12, Isaiah 42:19-20

He posts what *he thinks* is ample scripture...for instance, Jesus (in Acts 9), after His resurrection, intervenes in time and space, knocks Paul of his horse, and then speaks to him and directs him where to go. How does that happen if Jesus isn't EXERCISING his authority?

 

[tranquil]

As I say in this more detailed post here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7869674-4/#post67158267

Jesus announces the spiritual Jubilee at Yom Kippur in Luke 4

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”

20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
​

The part Jesus purposely omits is the "day of vengeance" (Isa 61:2) - which is the future literal Jubilee, 50th year which will be the physical counterpart/ manifestation of this prior announcement.

Revelation is describing the 'day of vengeance'/ day of the Lord/ the Jubilee.

Ebed is correct that the 'millenium' is now, but it is a spiritual 'millenium' until the literal Jubilee is fulfilled.

After this "1000 years"/ future 'day of the lord'/ a literal Jubilee year running from Nisan 1 to Nisan 1 is fulfilled, is when Satan is released

Rev 20
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[keras]

Ebes asks: When was God ever not reigning?

Answer: When He 'hid His face from us'. Because of sins, God has allowed the world to go its own way and that is how it is until today, but not for much longer!

Refer to: Deut. 31:17-18, Deut. 32:20, Isaiah 54:8, Ezekiel 39:23-24 and then in v29 the Lord says: No longer will I hide My face from my people, I will pour out My spirit upon them.
This will happen soon after the destruction of the Gog/Magog attackers, who attack the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, the Lord's people, brought out from the nations and living in peace and prosperity. Ezekiel 38:8

Yes, Jesus CAN act in this world, that is far from saying He is reigning now. We are told Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God, in heaven, waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool. Psalm 110:1, Hebrews 10:12-13
Your premise that Jesus is reigning now, Ebed, is wrong, when will you admit your error?