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Bible-Creation-Evolution (2)

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selfinflikted

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Oh noes! Our knowledge is expanding and growing!

Why is it that creationist think learning new things is a negative?

Because the very nature of science demands adding to the current knowledge base, while religious dogma is threatened by change (for obvious reasons) and by extension so are its followers. I think that perhaps religious folks are really afraid that science is getting close to nullifying their belief system, and I'm sure that makes quite a few folks uneasy.
 
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TheReasoner

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Because the very nature of science demands adding to the current knowledge base, while religious dogma is threatened by change (for obvious reasons) and by extension so are its followers. I think that perhaps religious folks are really afraid that science is getting close to nullifying their belief system, and I'm sure that makes quite a few folks uneasy.

Well... Sometimes you run across religious scientists and the like... :wave:

I may be a statistical outlier, but I seek and love adding to the current knowledge base. Not doing much of that yet - I am still a ways off from my master's. Even so, just learning new stuff, I couldn't possibly live without it. :thumbsup:
 
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selfinflikted

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Well... Sometimes you run across religious scientists and the like... :wave:

Well, yea, but you aren't one of those fanatics running around claiming the Earth is only 6k years old either. You seem like a perfectly rational person who has a reasonable grasp on reality. The same can't be said for some people, which are the ones my post was referencing.
 
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AV1611VET

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Tell me, how is this not pride to the point of narcissism?
Actually, what you and those like you overlook, is why we do this.

Scientism, in my opinion, forces us to take a hard-line stance in defense of our faith; else we'll eventually be forced to say even the Resurrection didn't happen.

We have to draw the line somewhere, and I choose to draw the line right where I'm at and not budge an inch.

Since I sincerely believe what I believe, I feel I'm forced to defend it with the utmost amount of faith I can muster -- and even if I have to bury my head in the sand to do it, I choose to err on the side of empiricism, rather than give in to interpreting the Scriptures allegorically; which I refuse to do.

I believe God has blessed me, in return, with my Apple Challenge and my set of Boolean Standards that allow me to go the extra mile in solidifying my points.

I have also noticed in my five years here, that whatever we get accused of, I am able to hold a mirror up to my accusers; and in so doing, noticed that they too, won't budge an inch.

In short, I absolutely will not compromise my beliefs to any science book; and I feel that scientism is what forces that adamant nature out of me.
 
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TheReasoner

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Well, yea, but you aren't one of those fanatics running around claiming the Earth is only 6k years old either. You seem like a perfectly rational person who has a reasonable grasp on reality. The same can't be said for some people, which are the ones my post was referencing.

:o The earth isn't 6000 years old? :o

Kidding ;)
Thank you, and don't worry selfinflikted. I'm not about to tell anyone anything that crazy. I got your point, too. And I agree. I'd even go further and say that such advocacy is harmful to society and the human condition.

Then again I'm probably going to be seen as a heretic by AV and his ilk for this, but:
*whispers: Jesus loves gay people!
 
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selfinflikted

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Actually, what you and those like you overlook, is why we do this.

Scientism, in my opinion, forces us to take a hard-line stance in defense of our faith; else we'll eventually be forced to say even the Resurrection didn't happen.

Translation: I really, really, really want the bible to be true, therefore I have to ignore reality.

Protip: We already knew this about you, AV. ;)
 
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selfinflikted

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I have also noticed in my five years here, that whatever we get accused of, I am able to hold a mirror up to my accusers; and in so doing, noticed that they too, won't budge an inch.

I haven't really seen any examples of this, though I could be wrong.
 
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AV1611VET

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a: Admit to being human
How about if I put it in my profile?

Then, of course, I would be called a bot,* since I'm everything but what's in my profile.

And since I'm everything but what I claim to be in you guys' eyes, admitting to being human would just make it worse.

* Which I have before.
 
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selfinflikted

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I'd even go further and say that such advocacy is harmful to society and the human condition.

It really is. Thankfully, I think the real fanatics are an extreme minority. I don't think the majority of Americans bury their heads in the sand as much as some people around here. >.> <.<

Then again I'm probably going to be seen as a heretic by AV and his ilk for this, but:
*whispers: Jesus loves gay people!

Thanks. If I thought there really was a god, I'd be hard-pressed to believe that it'd actually give two flips about who loves who. ;)
 
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AV1611VET

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Translation: I really, really, really want the bible to be true, therefore I have to ignore reality.
Now that's what we call an 'error in translation'.
 
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AV1611VET

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I haven't really seen any examples of this, though I could be wrong.
Have you ever counted the times I've said, "The mirror hurts, doesn't it"?
 
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selfinflikted

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Have you ever counted the times I've said, "The mirror hurts, doesn't it"?

No, I haven't. But I have read plenty of debates here, and you really are the only one whom I've never seen admit to possible error. Basically everyone except biblical literalists at the very least admit there's a possibility they could be wrong. But I've never seen that from you. I think that's what they're driving at.

But let me tell you, AV. It's ok to be wrong. The only harm that could come from that is a bruised ego, and there are much worse things.
 
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TheReasoner

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Actually, what you and those like you overlook, is why we do this.

Scientism, in my opinion, forces us to take a hard-line stance in defense of our faith; else we'll eventually be forced to say even the Resurrection didn't happen.
Nonsense. That's not a testable event at this point. And goodness AV, if you think that then I wonder if you think your faith has any validity? DO you really think that concrete evidence will disprove the resurrection?
If so you're not a believer, are you?

Science deals with hard evidence. You don't seem to understand this, and take a somewhat paranoid stance instead. Don't worry AV, Jesus said no weapon formed against us will prosper. He said to love even those who hate us and if sued to give more than asked for. Why do you worry? NO matter what anyone brings around to harm Jesus it will not work.

Of course that doesn't mean you should do your bit to harm Him though. But you are. Don't you see? We're many christians in my university, but none are creationists that I know of. In fact it's scoffed at and usually ridiculed. However, at times when I run across an atheist the question tends to be: "How can you believe in something you know to be wrong? Something your own lab results reveal without a doubt IS wrong?"
Their questions and rejection of the gospel as a whole is based on one thing:
People like you who insist there is a connection which no-one else sees. Goodness gracious! Conservative priests scoff at your position. Ultra-orthodox priests call it heretical and sectarian. Catholics often do the same. Lutherans as well.
So... Why do you do this? If you believe there is a heaven and hell AV, then it follows that because of you people will be going to hell. People who could be rejoicing with you at the end of days praising Jesus' name with joy will suffer in His absence.

Tell me, how is that defensible? Wouldn't it be better to just shut up about that when talking near non-believers and instead show them who Jesus is, love, mercy and all?

We have to draw the line somewhere, and I choose to draw the line right where I'm at and not budge an inch.
But this is based on the false premise that science is anti-christian. It isn't. It only deals with things we can observe and test. If you truly believe you would not be threatened by that, but excited. Surely a true believer would rejoice in knowing that any examination of God's creation will eventually point to God? Surely, only a believer in name only would feel threatened by facts?!

Since I sincerely believe what I believe, I feel I'm forced to defend it with the utmost amount of faith I can muster
What you're displaying isn't faith. You're like a ceramic AV. You're hard in your belief, but also very weak. Your position does not hold, and I think you know it is both weak, shattered and worth far less than nothing: It is harmful.

-- and even if I have to bury my head in the sand to do it, I choose to err on the side of empiricism, rather than give in to interpreting the Scriptures allegorically; which I refuse to do.
Ahh. You take your one interpretation of one of multiple creation stories, ignore the other ones and call it "literal". That's nonsensical, and I think you realize as much.

By the way, I do not think you have understood the word 'empiricism'. What you're erring on the side of is not empiricism.

I believe God has blessed me, in return, with my Apple Challenge and my set of Boolean Standards that allow me to go the extra mile in solidifying my points.
You haven't solidified anything. You haven't displayed any proper logic, nor any decent argument. You just repeat yourself and ignore other people.
I have also noticed in my five years here, that whatever we get accused of, I am able to hold a mirror up to my accusers; and in so doing, noticed that they too, won't budge an inch.
I have not seen that happen once.
In short, I absolutely will not compromise my beliefs to any science book; and I feel that scientism is what forces that adamant nature out of me.
Then you are a fanatic, and your position is worthless and not representative of true faith, as the latter will require humility and admission of personal fallibility while the former is self-centered fanaticism which harms the kingdom of God through usurpation of His throne and rejection and damnation of souls He would call through this said fanatical approach.

My deepest regret in my life, AV. The deepest deepest one is being at one point what you are now. Doing what you do. I pray and hope that I did not drive anyone to reject God, but know I may very well have done so. By doing exactly what you're doing now.




And, AV: Scientism? Come on. Stooping to language abuse now? Why don't you just slap a swearword in front of it. That would be a just as valid method of argumentation. Show some integrity, will you?
 
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TheReasoner

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It really is. Thankfully, I think the real fanatics are an extreme minority. I don't think the majority of Americans bury their heads in the sand as much as some people around here. >.> <.<

I hope not. Most Norwegians don't. You find them of course, but... I'd like to think you're right though

Thanks. If I thought there really was a god, I'd be hard-pressed to believe that it'd actually give two flips about who loves who. ;)

You're welcome. Someone has to stand up for the ones others would step on. I'm guessing you, according to your title 'queer atheist' see your share of verbal abuse :(
As I see Christ's message and life, speaking up against such things is a very central part of His calling to us as believers. And in my impression if it's one thing homosexuals need - particularly in the US - it's being told they're worth something as people. No matter their sexuality.

And, you are!

Hope I'm not overstepping any boundries when I say this s.i. :sorry:
 
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selfinflikted

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You're welcome. Someone has to stand up for the ones others would step on. I'm guessing you, according to your title 'queer atheist' see your share of verbal abuse :(
As I see Christ's message and life, speaking up against such things is a very central part of His calling to us as believers. And in my impression if it's one thing homosexuals need - particularly in the US - it's being told they're worth something as people. No matter their sexuality.

And, you are!

Hope I'm not overstepping any boundries when I say this s.i. :sorry:

Nope, not at all. I appreciate the sentiment, though as much as they like to say we (homosexuals, et al) are worthless, we know better. ;)

Now, I sense that Nathan is about to poke his head in and tell us to get back on topic. :cool:
 
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TheReasoner

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Nope, not at all. I appreciate the sentiment, though as much as they like to say we (homosexuals, et al) are worthless, we know better. ;)

:cool:
I still thought I'd say something :/ In my experience american christians sometimes forget the love Christ told us to show and condemn instead. Just thought I'd try to provide a counterweight to that.

Now, I sense that Nathan is about to poke his head in and tell us to get back on topic. :cool:

And right he'd be!


Let's see... Back on topic, yeah.

AV, please supply solid evidence for your position. Even better, to use your paradigm: Supply solid evidence that your interpretation of the bible is the right one using only the bible and logic, ignoring science and the world around us.
 
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selfinflikted

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Personally, I would like to know why AV feels that the creation story can't be read as a parable, instead of literally? Would reading the Bible (in respect to creation) as parable as opposed to a literal reading diminish it's value and/or significance? If so, how and why?
 
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TheReasoner

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Personally, I would like to know why AV feels that the creation story can't be read as a parable, instead of literally? Would reading the Bible (in respect to creation) as parable as opposed to a literal reading diminish it's value and/or significance? If so, how and why?

It's not even the only creation parable. Look in Genesis 2 for a second one. AND: They conflict.
So a reading of the bible alone provides ample evidence that AV is wrong. His view isn't even consistent with the bible he claims to read literally. In fact, a literal reading would ensure the reader considered it a parable as there are two conflicting stories. Belief in an infallible bible then results in an understanding that the creation stories are creation parables.
 
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