Bible Baptism

[Jim Woodell]

Was baptism as revealed in scriptures for the purpose of joining a church or did it have a different purpose?

 

[rural_preacher]

Was baptism as revealed in scriptures for the purpose of joining a church or did it have a different purpose?

Public identification with Jesus Christ.



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[Andyman_1970]

Our baptism is a "spinoff" of the Jewish rite called a Mikvah - a ritual bath that one would take (for among other reasons) to symbolically show that one had repented and turned back to God. This is what John the Baptist was doing in the wilderness.

Notice what Paul does after his encounter with Jesus, he had repented and then he took a ritual bath - a mikvah.

Pre Jesus - when a Gentile wanted to convet to Judaism one of the rites they would perform was a mikvah, a public testimony that this Gentile has turned from his pagan gods, and turned towards (repent, which in the Hebrew is the word T'shuvah and means "to turn back") the One True God - Yahweh.

So for the early Christian church, Baptism was a symbol of one's "returning" or "turning back" to God via Jesus.

 

[Matthan]

Andyman, that was a wonderful, concise answer that says it all

Matthan <J><

 

[Andyman_1970]

Andyman, that was a wonderful, concise answer that says it all

Matthan <J><

Thanks for the props Matthan............

 

[Jim Woodell]

Our baptism is a "spinoff" of the Jewish rite called a Mikvah - a ritual bath that one would take (for among other reasons) to symbolically show that one had repented and turned back to God. This is what John the Baptist was doing in the wilderness.

Notice what Paul does after his encounter with Jesus, he had repented and then he took a ritual bath - a mikvah.

Pre Jesus - when a Gentile wanted to convet to Judaism one of the rites they would perform was a mikvah, a public testimony that this Gentile has turned from his pagan gods, and turned towards (repent, which in the Hebrew is the word T'shuvah and means "to turn back") the One True God - Yahweh.

So for the early Christian church, Baptism was a symbol of one's "returning" or "turning back" to God via Jesus.

I appreciate this insight, but how do you reconcile that understanding with Acts 2:38 that connects baptism with forgiveness of sin? Also it would seem that John's baptism that Apollos taught in Acts 18:24ff would have been sufficient in Ephesus if both John's baptism and the baptism commanded by Christ simply symbolized repentance and was a ritual bath.

Just wondering still.

 

[rural_preacher]

I appreciate this insight, but how do you reconcile that understanding with Acts 2:38 that connects baptism with forgiveness of sin? Also it would seem that John's baptism that Apollos taught in Acts 18:24ff would have been sufficient in Ephesus if both John's baptism and the baptism commanded by Christ simply symbolized repentance and was a ritual bath.

Just wondering still.

I'm just curious, Jim, after checking your profile and seeing that you are the pastor of a Church of Christ, are you here with a genuine question for Baptists or are you here to pick a fight about whether baptism is an essential part of salvation?


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[Andyman_1970]

I appreciate this insight, but how do you reconcile that understanding with Acts 2:38 that connects baptism with forgiveness of sin? Also it would seem that John's baptism that Apollos taught in Acts 18:24ff would have been sufficient in Ephesus if both John's baptism and the baptism commanded by Christ simply symbolized repentance and was a ritual bath.

Just wondering still.

Jim with all due respect, there is a thread on the Non Denom forum (which I'm sure you are well aware of) that I have more than commented on about the passage you cite.

Looking at the Scriptures in their ful context (cultural and historical) and taking into account that the authors of the Scritpures were either Jews or Gentiles that had converted to Judasim - the passage you cite in light of these considerations along with other passages fit perfectly into my orginal response to your question.

IMO for us to know Jesus—and thus God the Father and the Holy Spirit—more intimately - and thus know what the authors were truly saying, we must carefully assess our 21st-century culture and Western attitudes in relation to and in light of the 1st-century world of Jesus. We must immerse ourselves in the culture of Scripture and Jesus of Nazareth. And we must learn to "think Hebrew"—in the way that the original writers of the Text thought.

With all due respect Jim, seeing that you are Church of Christ, the doctrine of baptismal regeneration that you hold is but one of many doctrines Church of Christ'ers hold that I fundamentally (and more importantly beleive the Bible) disagrees with.

Thanks for stopping in Jim, but to reflect rual preacher, I hope your not here causing trouble.

 

[Jim Woodell]

Jim with all due respect, there is a thread on the Non Denom forum (which I'm sure you are well aware of) that I have more than commented on about the passage you cite.

Looking at the Scriptures in their ful context (cultural and historical) and taking into account that the authors of the Scritpures were either Jews or Gentiles that had converted to Judasim - the passage you cite in light of these considerations along with other passages fit perfectly into my orginal response to your question.

IMO for us to know Jesus—and thus God the Father and the Holy Spirit—more intimately - and thus know what the authors were truly saying, we must carefully assess our 21st-century culture and Western attitudes in relation to and in light of the 1st-century world of Jesus. We must immerse ourselves in the culture of Scripture and Jesus of Nazareth. And we must learn to "think Hebrew"—in the way that the original writers of the Text thought.

With all due respect Jim, seeing that you are Church of Christ, the doctrine of baptismal regeneration that you hold is but one of many doctrines Church of Christ'ers hold that I fundamentally (and more importantly beleive the Bible) disagrees with.

Thanks for stopping in Jim, but to reflect rual preacher, I hope your not here causing trouble.

Again, I appreciate your thoughts concerning my original question. Perhaps you have good reason to react as you have, I don't know. My question and observation was and is sincere.

It is interesting to see you refer to me as "Church of Christ," and "the doctrine of baptismal regeneration." I consider myself a Christian not a "Church of Christ." My desire is to know and understand the scriptures and follow God in what he teaches. I believe that regeneration comes from the Holy Spirit, not baptism, but I do believe God uses baptism in His plan for our salvation. WE are a long way from John 17:20-21 aren't we?

 

[TwinCrier]

Baptism is an act of obedience, and I have no problem with a church denying membership to those who are in open diobedience to the word of God. I truly doubt rather someone will be standing at the perly gates requesting baptismal certificates. There is no regeneration from water, only from the blood.

 

[CFoster]

Perhaps you have good reason to react as you have, I don't know.

You asked a seemingly innocent question in your original post, then, when you got a few fish on the line, you set the hook with scriptures. To me that was in very poor taste. It would have been more forthright to give your misgivings about your question in the original post, not to mention gotten responses that would have been more appropriate for your real question. I have alot of respect for the men and women who post on this forum, and they will always be glad to try their best to answer a question using the Word of God. I would suggest being more upfront about your questions in the future.

 

[Rev Wayne]

There is no regeneration from water, only from the blood.

Never thought of it that way, I always thought of it as regeneration from the Spirit. But I saw somewhere else a comment that "the Spirit always responds to the blood," so it works.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Again, I appreciate your thoughts concerning my original question. Perhaps you have good reason to react as you have, I don't know. My question and observation was and is sincere.

If you question was sincere then I apologize for coming off defensive. If you really way to know what I believe I'll be more than happy to share with you - however this is the Baptist forum, I'm not going to get into a debate with you on this subject on this thread.

It is interesting to see you refer to me as "Church of Christ," and "the doctrine of baptismal regeneration." I consider myself a Christian not a "Church of Christ." My desire is to know and understand the scriptures and follow God in what he teaches. I believe that regeneration comes from the Holy Spirit, not baptism, but I do believe God uses baptism in His plan for our salvation.

I referred to you (with all due respect) as affiliated with the "Chruch of Christ"/Restoration movement - it's on your profile. Knowing that "Chruch of Christ" beleives in the doctrine of baptismal regeneration is why I made the statement I did, it was not a put down. BTW - the idea/thinking/doctrine that somehow baptism is connected to our salvation is known theologically as Baptismal Regeneration - again this is not a put down but a technical term if you will.

WE are a long way from John 17:20-21 aren't we?

Do you make this statement because of my defensiveness earlier or because we do not agree on the meaning of Baptism?

Forgive me for my tone earlier, but unfortunatly I have had experiences (both on here and in real life) with those who attend a "Church of Christ"/Restoration church who have asked me about this issuse only to "bushwack" me in a very confrontational way that did not reflect the passage you cite above in John.

Jim, if you looking for information, I'll be more than happy to share with you, but if you looking to "prove" or cite passages and assert I'm somehow wrong in my beliefs then thanks but no thanks..........I'm too tired of beating my head against that wall.

 

[mesue]

Jesus was baptised as a public testimony of His willingness to submit to His Father's will. He did this before He started His ministry.

I think that some churches require this for membership (and please don't confuse membership with attendance) because in baptism we are saying that we want to submitt to God's will. The church will know that your intentions for service are pure if you get baptised or have been baptised. At least, that is how I have had it explained to me.

 

[Jim Woodell]

Baptism is an act of obedience, and I have no problem with a church denying membership to those who are in open diobedience to the word of God. I truly doubt rather someone will be standing at the perly gates requesting baptismal certificates. There is no regeneration from water, only from the blood.

Neither do I think God will be checking baptismal certificates, but he will be checking the "book of life" (Heb. 12:23;Rev. 20:27).

Scripture says, "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power..." (2 Thess 1:8-9).

Also, though this is perhaps sematics, blood does not regenerate. It does cleanse us from sins (Heb. 9:22). The Holy Spirit regenerates (Romans 8:11).

 

[ZiSunka]

Although I agree that baptism does not save, faith in Christ saves, there is something about baptism that cannot be ignored. It is a command from Christ for us to be baptized and to baptize other believers, so it is not disposable or dispensable. If we are believers and it is at all within our ability, we must be baptized.

And I can say as someone for whom there was a long time between faith and baptism (12 years!), I became a different person than I was before I was baptized. I did not expect to be different, but I am, and the Lord set me into my life's work, his calling, only after I got baptized. Before that, every ministry I try to perform was thwarted and frustrated. But after I was baptized, unsaved people could see a difference in me and they wanted to know what made that difference, and God repaired a lot of broken things in my heart (although he is still working on many more), and set me into a deeper connection with him than I ever knew before.

I had thought that baptism was merely a ceremonial washing before I was baptized, but now, I do think there is some regenerative property in keeping Christ's commandment. Obedience is essential and to be baptized is to obey. To refuse baptism is to be disobedient.

 

[JMandrell]

Baptism is a ceremony that has a huge meaning. Baptism is not required for salvation because when you are saved, you are baptized in the blood of the lamb. But what baptism is, it is a christian following Jesus's example by physically showing that your sins are washed away and that you are clean from sin thru salvation.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Jim Woodell,

I take it by your non-response to my last post that your intentions were something other than information gathering?

 

[Jim Woodell]

Jim Woodell,

I take it by your non-response to my last post that your intentions were something other than information gathering?

I take seriously the teaching of 2 Timothy 2:24, "And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful."

With the responses I received from my questions and the obvious catergorizing of me as a "Church of Christer" who believes in "baptismal regeneration" I thought I would go elsewhere. You might look at my thread under the nondenominational category regarding freewill where I have tried to cloth my question in a different way, but it is still the same question: Do I have to do anything to be saved? It is preached that salvation is a free gift, but something must be done to accept the gift, so that's a work on man's part, but we are not saved by works, and on we go.

We are probably closer in our basic theology than you think. I do not believe we are saved by any meritorious work. God never owes us salvation because of anything we have done, NEVER. Jesus and Jesus alone is our saviour. He became sin for us so that we could be made righteous through him (2 Cor. 5:21).

Baptism is an issue that has not been resolved in the Christian community. My Baptist friends say that it is a work. When Baptist are leading someone to Christ you will ask the sinner to "invite Jesus into your heart." That is a work the sinner is doing, moreso than being baptized. In baptism a sinner surrenders himself to the hands of another to be lowered in water and brought up again. That is a work but it is the baptizer that is doing the work, not the person being baptized.

I am happy to continue this discussion and be challenged on anything that I think or write, but as one person said, "Are you on here to start trouble?" Trouble is not something that I am pursuing; a meaningful discussion is.

God bless, and thanks for asking and for the email.

jw

 

[Andyman_1970]

I take seriously the teaching of 2 Timothy 2:24, "And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful."

As do I, I'll add John 13:34 to your passage also.

With the responses I received from my questions and the obvious catergorizing of me as a "Church of Christer" who believes in "baptismal regeneration" I thought I would go elsewhere.

It does say on your profile that you attend a Church of Chirst church, so that is not nessecarily a catergorization but what you identified yourself as. Knowing that those who attend Church of Christ churches believe that baptism saves (ie Baptismal Regeneration) and with your question regarding Acts 2:38 it appeared you were looking for a debate (since this is a Baptist forum and we do not hold that Baptism saves) - evidently appearances were wrong, for that I apologize and would ask for your forgiveness.

We are probably closer in our basic theology than you think. I do not believe we are saved by any meritorious work. God never owes us salvation because of anything we have done, NEVER. Jesus and Jesus alone is our saviour. He became sin for us so that we could be made righteous through him (2 Cor. 5:21).

I would argree here Jim. Sometimes I think that we tend to let matters that we differ on become an obstacles when dealing our brothers and sisters in the faith.

Unfortunately as I stated in my earlier post:

Forgive me for my tone earlier, but unfortunatly I have had experiences (both on here and in real life) with those who attend a "Church of Christ"/Restoration church who have asked me about this issuse only to "bushwack" me in a very confrontational way that did not reflect the passage you cite above in John.

This is a shame as in one instance the gentlemen I had a confrontation with (not here on CF) was what I would consider a friend and brother in the faith (in spite of our differences regarding Baptism) he however became quite judgemental and condemning in our discussion - so you can see why I am "gun shy".

Hopefully you and I can have a peaceful, mutually respectful, God honoring discussion and hopefully it will help heal the wounds I have regarding this issue.

Baptism is an issue that has not been resolved in the Christian community. My Baptist friends say that it is a work. When Baptist are leading someone to Christ you will ask the sinner to "invite Jesus into your heart." That is a work the sinner is doing, moreso than being baptized. In baptism a sinner surrenders himself to the hands of another to be lowered in water and brought up again. That is a work but it is the baptizer that is doing the work, not the person being baptized.

On this we disagree. You are more than welcome to believe what you like, that's your right.

I am happy to continue this discussion and be challenged on anything that I think or write, but as one person said, "Are you on here to start trouble?" Trouble is not something that I am pursuing; a meaningful discussion is.

As I said in my earlier post:

Jim, if you looking for information, I'll be more than happy to share with you, but if you looking to "prove" or cite passages and assert I'm somehow wrong in my beliefs then thanks but no thanks..........I'm too tired of beating my head against that wall.

If you have any questions for me I would be more than happy to answer them, but since this is a Baptist thread I do not wish to engage in a debate about who's right and who's wrong - if you want to know where I'm coming from I'd be more than happy to answer.