Bible and science?

The Barbarian · May 14, 2019

(Barbarian, regarding the observation that evangelicals are often less Godly than nonbelievers)
You identify as a Christian too. So do lots of people who remain evangelicals, but have lost the spirit of His Church:

dad said:
I try not to be a murderer though, and would not use the moniker as an excuse if I were.

That's a pretty low bar for a Christian, in my opinion, but it's a start.

Thanks.

I would encourage you to believe Scripture rather than worship YEC by believing it above God's word.[/QUOTE]

dad · May 14, 2019

The Barbarian said:
Barbarian suggests.
Calling Jesus a "liar" for using parables is probably not a good idea. Please reconsider.

Then why to you call His parables "fairy stories?"Those who claim His record is fairy stories or some parable rather than fact call Him a liar.

Read it again, and learn:
Matthew 13:33 Another parable he spoke to them: The kingdom of heaven is like to leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, until the whole was leavened. [34] All these things Jesus spoke in parables to the multitudes: and without parables he did not speak to them. [35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.

Of course it did. You just don't approve of the way He did it.

God, you know. Or do you not approve of that, either?

So, deception and subterfuge rather than honest debate eh. Fine. No, you may not wave away the reality of trees, the first man, waters, woman, rivers, animals etc etc etc. Overruled.

dad · May 14, 2019

The Barbarian said:
(Barbarian, regarding the observation that evangelicals are often less Godly than nonbelievers)
You identify as a Christian too. So do lots of people who remain evangelicals, but have lost the spirit of His Church:

That's a pretty low bar for a Christian, in my opinion, but it's a start.

I would encourage you to believe Scripture rather than worship YEC by believing it above God's word.

I would encourage you to believe Jesus, as He spoke of Noah and the first man.

The Barbarian · May 14, 2019

dad said:
I would encourage you to believe Jesus, as He spoke of Noah and the first man.

As i showed you, Adam was a real person. Noah likely was, as well. So your argument is that a real person can't be used in a parable or allegory? How so?

The Barbarian · May 14, 2019

Barbarian suggests.
Calling Jesus a "liar" for using parables is probably not a good idea. Please reconsider.

(denial)

Then why to you call His parables "fairy stories?"Those who claim His record is fairy stories or some parable rather than fact call Him a liar.

(more denial)

Read it again, and learn:
Matthew 13:33 Another parable he spoke to them: The kingdom of heaven is like to leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, until the whole was leavened. [34] All these things Jesus spoke in parables to the multitudes: and without parables he did not speak to them. [35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.

(Dad concedes that God created the world)

Of course it did. You just don't approve of the way He did it.

dad said:
So, deception and subterfuge rather than honest debate

Be forthright, and you will do better in the future.

No, you may not wave away the reality of trees, the first man, waters, woman, rivers, animals etc etc etc.

If you denied all these things, then one of us did. If you were to deal honestly with people here, you would do much better.

dad · May 14, 2019

The Barbarian said:
As i showed you, Adam was a real person. Noah likely was, as well. So your argument is that a real person can't be used in a parable or allegory? How so?

So Noah was real but there really was not just 8 people on earth after the flood? Adam was real and God actually took Eve from his bone? There really was a garden? Be clear. We can't assume you believe because you have repeatedly denied parts of the account.

dad · May 14, 2019

The Barbarian said:
Of course it did. You just don't approve of the way He did it.

I approve of the He said He did it.

If you denied all these things, then one of us did. If you were to deal honestly with people here, you would do much better.

Please confirm you believe in each of the following.

A real creation of the world before stars.
A real creation of man and woman one real day.
A real garden where He put them to live with real rivers and trees.
A real flood that killed everyone on earth except Noah and family.

trophy33 · May 15, 2019

dad said:
So because murderers using a christian moniker are plentiful in the US, you think believing Jesus and the apostles and prophets is bad. OK. Look deeper.

You do not want to understand, do you?

The point is, that more literal Genesis reading in a population does not make the population better. So your reason for pushing the literal reading of Genesis forward is not valid.

trophy33 · May 15, 2019

dad said:
it depends if we are talking about this God or that god.

There is only one God and everything He created must give witnessing of Him. Both Bible and cosmos.

dad said:
There are only two readings, a believing one and something else.

So, try to believe that God is bigger than the primitive imagination of ancient people who sometimes even believed that the world is on the back of a Turtle, believed that Sun or moon are gods etc ;-)
Get deeper, do not get stuck on the surface of their language, look for the point Biblical writers wanted to make. Their polemic with other nations was that there is only one God and all the creation serves Him.

You are not required to believe in 6 literal days of creation any more than you are required to believe there is a firm dome in the sky with doors, that stars fall on the earth or that the Earth is flat.

The Barbarian · May 15, 2019

dad said:
Please confirm you believe in each of the following.

A real creation of the world before stars.

Since the "days" (actually "yom", which can mean 'in my time" , "always", "days", "a period of time" etc. ) of Genesis were known, even in ancient times, to be not literal days, but categories of creation, Genesis does not say which came first.

A real creation of man and woman one real day.

Even for a Biblical literalist, it does not say that man and woman were created the same day. However, it is true that our race was created when God gave man a living soul, which He does for each of us directly, and not by natural processes. When this occured, is not stated in the Bible, but it did happen at some point in time.

A real garden where He put them to live with real rivers and trees.

The nature of the garden is not discussed in Genesis. However, the evidence shows that rivers and trees long preceded man in the world.

A real flood that killed everyone on earth except Noah and family.

You seem to realize that the Bible does not say that the flood was global. There was a flood in the Middle East at about the right time, but we cannot be sure if the flood was a historical event or an allegory.

The Barbarian · May 15, 2019

dad said:
So Noah was real but there really was not just 8 people on earth after the flood?

Some Christians have re-interpreted the flood story to be a literal history. It's not a heresy, since orthodoxy does not say one way or the other. It is often used by those who are dissatisfied with God's message to insist that Chirstians must believe in a literal, global flood.

Adam was real

Since God directly gives each of us a soul, there must have been a first man.

and God actually took Eve from his bone?

That is figurative, not a literally historical event.The creation of Eve is a parable for her relationship to Adam.

Because you have repeatedly denied much of Genesis in favor of your modern revision, it's hard say which parts of it you actually believe.

dad · May 15, 2019

myst33 said:
You do not want to understand, do you?

The point is, that more literal Genesis reading in a population does not make the population better. So your reason for pushing the literal reading of Genesis forward is not valid.

I advocate for a believing reading of Scripture. That only makes us better since it would mean we ask for God to help us. Looking at a population that has by and large rejected Christ, such as the US (as evidenced in kicking God out of education, government, and the general slide into murderous evil) and pretending they are some 'christian' nation because they have some dumb motto on a coin, or stick the word 'god' in an anthem or something is foolish and ignorant.

dad · May 15, 2019

myst33 said:
There is only one God and everything He created must give witnessing of Him. Both Bible and cosmos.

There are many gods. Only one Jesus/creator/Almighty.

So, try to believe that God is bigger than the primitive imagination of ancient people who sometimes even believed that the world is on the back of a Turtle, believed that Sun or moon are gods etc ;-)
Get deeper, do not get stuck on the surface of their language, look for the point Biblical writers wanted to make. Their polemic with other nations was that there is only one God and all the creation serves Him.

Much of the time the poor dolts used to write the bible did not have much of a clue what they were saying! They had NO way of realizing it was all being woven into a giant seamless tapestry of which they were just a little part.

You are not required to believe in 6 literal days of creation

Nor are we required to believe in Jesus, or prophesy or history etc etc. He let's us chose. But the Jesus of the bible created all things, not some demonic hot soup imaginary speck.

trophy33 · May 15, 2019

dad said:
There are many gods. Only one Jesus/creator/Almighty.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.
1Tm 2:5

A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.
Gal 3:20

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
Jm 2:19

You learnt something new today

dad said:
Much of the time the poor dolts used to write the bible did not have much of a clue what they were saying! They had NO way of realizing it was all being woven into a giant seamless tapestry of which they were just a little part.
Nor are we required to believe in Jesus, or prophesy or history etc etc. He let's us chose. But the Jesus of the bible created all things, not some demonic hot soup imaginary speck.

They were inspired theologically, but God did not correct their scientific knowledge or their agricultural language.

trophy33 · May 15, 2019

dad said:
I advocate for a believing reading of Scripture. That only makes us better since it would mean we ask for God to help us. Looking at a population that has by and large rejected Christ, such as the US (as evidenced in kicking God out of education, government, and the general slide into murderous evil) and pretending they are some 'christian' nation because they have some dumb motto on a coin, or stick the word 'god' in an anthem or something is foolish and ignorant.

I do not know, I do not live in the USA. I know that liberal countries like Canada or the EU countries are more safe, however.

So, again, what is the supposed theological or moral problem with allegorical reading of Gen 1 and 2?

The Barbarian · May 15, 2019

dad said:
I advocate for a believing reading of Scripture.

But you don't practice what you preach.

That only makes us better since it would mean we ask for God to help us. Looking at a population that has by and large rejected Christ, such as the US (as evidenced in kicking God out of education, government,

The Founders installed the Bill of Rights in 1791. But it didn't kick God out of education or government; it merely kicked government out of the religion business. My daughter was an officer in the Fellowship of Christian athletes. They prayed by the flagpole on a regular basis, and met to pray during the school day. They were free to do so, but the school was not free to initiate religious practices. Which is the way it should be. Jesus told us that God neither wants nor needs government support.

and the general slide into murderous evil

Evangelicals are having a crisis of behavior. They divorce more frequently than other people, even more than atheists. The view from one concerned evangelical Christian:
Scandalous behavior is rapidly destroying American Christianity. By their daily activity, most "Christians" regularly commit treason. With their mouths they claim that Jesus is Lord, but with their actions they demonstrate allegiance to money, sex, and self-fulfillment.

The findings in numerous national polls conducted by highly respected pollsters like The Gallup Organization and The Barna Group are simply shocking. "Gallup and Barna," laments evangelical theologian Michael Horton, "hand us survey after survey demonstrating that evangelical Christians are as likely to embrace lifestyles every bit as hedonistic, materialistic, self-centered, and sexually immoral as the world in general."1 Divorce is more common among "born-again" Christians than in the general American population. Only 6 percent of evangelicals tithe. White evangelicals are the most likely people to object to neighbors of another race. Josh McDowell has pointed out that the sexual promiscuity of evangelical youth is only a little less outrageous than that of their nonevangelical peers.
https://www3.dbu.edu/jeanhumphreys/SocialPsych/evangelicalmind.htm

Chasing the false doctrines of YEC and white nationalism has destroyed the integrity of many evangelicals.

[quotte]and pretending they are some 'christian' nation because they have some dumb motto on a coin, or stick the word 'god' in an anthem or something is foolish and ignorant.[/QUOTE]

Ironic you should realize that. There was a court decision, in which such "de minimus" violations of the Constitution were permitted, did so on the recognition that such official expressions of faith in God quickly become debased by use, and cease to mean anything to most people.

You could see this coming, back when Buchanan declared a "culture war" on secular society. It must have seemed to him that a jihad would restore the world he knew before integration and pluralism in government.

Instead, he lost. The culture war is over; it's just skirmishing by the hold-outs. And the worst result is outlined above by one of your own. It's not irretrievably lost, but you'll have to go back to putting God first and removing the idol of the Kulturkampf.

The Barbarian · May 15, 2019

dad said:
There are many gods.

I believe in one God, the Father, the almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth.

You should, too.

nolidad · May 15, 2019

myst33 said:
You think that if the YEC Christians will take first chapters of Genesis allegorically instead of literally, they will start behave as perverts, divorce, drink, shoot people etc?

It seems to be the opposite, nations with fewer YEC Christians seems to be safer and more peaceful.

I am talking about Christians as a whole. Whether one does individually I cannot say with certainty. I can only look at churches in general and see where churches have compromised the truth of Genesis as written have generally decayed in many other doctrines!

Believe me- as one who was once a staunch evolutionist, I would have loved to find allegorical wiggle room in Genesis , but the more I researched, the more I realized- it can only mean six 24 days!

nolidad · May 15, 2019

The Barbarian said:
I believe in one God, the Father, the almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth.

You should, too.

Do you believe that Jesus is equal in His divinity with His Father?

trophy33 · May 15, 2019

nolidad said:
I am talking about Christians as a whole. Whether one does individually I cannot say with certainty. I can only look at churches in general and see where churches have compromised the truth of Genesis as written have generally decayed in many other doctrines!

Believe me- as one who was once a staunch evolutionist, I would have loved to find allegorical wiggle room in Genesis , but the more I researched, the more I realized- it can only mean six 24 days!

I am coming from the opposite direction. From childhood, I was told to believe in the YEC and in my 30's I realized its not needed for anything.

Bible and science?

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