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Bible and science?

nolidad

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Let us say that we, who accept an old universe and mainstream science, are the ones who are "deceived".

What exactly is the problem with our view regarding Christianity, salvation, daily life for God, fruit of Spirit, being born again etc.? If nothing major, what is the big issue for you with that?

An individual can be saved and love God and believe in an old universe and evolution. their growth and relationship with God does get stunted because they have to allegorize so many passages. On a larger level, when believers start allegorizing scriptures that are not allegorical, then the world discounts the truth of the Word of God and all we need do is look at a the Christianized west. Historically we had the greatest light ofScripture and now we are the most perverted nations on the land and will fall under harsher judgments. One of the reasons is that believers listened to the devil when he repackaged the old lie to eve and said: "Does the Word of God reaaly say that,? Why can't it mean this???"
 
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The Barbarian

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An individual can be saved and love God and believe in an old universe and evolution. their growth and relationship with God does get stunted because they have to allegorize so many passages.

So you think Jesus was "stunting" our relationship with him when He spoke in parable and figurative stories? How do you think that happens?

On a larger level, when believers start revising scriptures that are allegorical, to make them literal history, then the world discounts the truth of the Word of God. St. Augustine warned us about such Christians, long before anyone knew about evolution:

Often, a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances, … and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, which people see as ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn.


The shame is not so much that an ignorant person is laughed at, but rather that people outside the faith believe that we hold such opinions, and thus our teachings are rejected as ignorant and unlearned. If they find a Christian mistaken in a subject that they know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions as based on our teachings, how are they going to believe these teachings in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think these teachings are filled with fallacies about facts which they have learnt from experience and reason.


Reckless and presumptuous expounders of Scripture bring about much harm when they are caught in their mischievous false opinions by those not bound by our sacred texts. And even more so when they then try to defend their rash and obviously untrue statements by quoting a shower of words from Scripture and even recite from memory passages which they think will support their case ‘without understanding either what they are saying or what they assert with such assurance.’ (1 Timothy 1:7)

St. Augustine of Hippo, De Genesi ad Litteram

YE turns many away from God, when they hear of YEC and assume that is what Christians believe. YE will have much to answer for at judgment.

Historically we had the greatest light ofScripture and now we are the most perverted nations on the land and will fall under harsher judgments.

I notice that prominent evangelicals are frequently much less Godly in their behavior than most Americans. Evangelicals have a higher rate of divorce, even greater than that of atheists. So it seems that you have it backwards.

And I notice that today, in a nation predominately Christian, our crime rates are dropping, sexual promiscuity is less common, and we are less likely to abuse people of other races and religions. So there's that, too.

One of the reasons is that believers listened to the devil when he repackaged the old lie to eve and said: "Does the Word of God reaaly say that,? Why can't it mean this???"

The devil told eve that she wouldn't die the day she ate from the tree, as God said she would. The devil turns out to be a Biblical literalist. She didn't physically die, but that's not what God meant. He was referring to a spiritual death.

And the devil told her that she would become like God, knowing good and evil, a fact which God later confirms to be true.

The devil is proficient at using the truth to mislead. And you should be acutely aware of that.
 
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trophy33

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That depends if you extend 'mainstream science' to include the origin 'sciences'. Those who believe the bible that Jesus created it all KNOW that the belief based fables preached in the name of science are not real science in any way. If we know God we know He is the creator!
You are still trying to convince us that accepting the old universe or possibly macroevolution leads to denial that God is the one behind it.

But it does not follow.
 
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trophy33

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Science today is telling their story. They misused the little they knew and mixed it with what they thought they knew. How they think creation came about is just a modern religious so called science (falsely) story.
If it makes sense, if it works together with other scientific areas, if it predicts what we will find and where, then its not "false religious story", but a real science.
 
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The Barbarian

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You are still trying to convince us that accepting the old universe or possibly macroevolution leads to denial that God is the one who created it.

But it does not follow.

YECs are unwilling to let God be that great and powerful.
 
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trophy33

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An individual can be saved and love God and believe in an old universe and evolution. their growth and relationship with God does get stunted because they have to allegorize so many passages. On a larger level, when believers start allegorizing scriptures that are not allegorical, then the world discounts the truth of the Word of God and all we need do is look at a the Christianized west. Historically we had the greatest light ofScripture and now we are the most perverted nations on the land and will fall under harsher judgments. One of the reasons is that believers listened to the devil when he repackaged the old lie to eve and said: "Does the Word of God reaaly say that,? Why can't it mean this???"
You think that if the YEC Christians will take first chapters of Genesis allegorically instead of literally, they will start behave as perverts, divorce, drink, shoot people etc?

It seems to be the opposite, nations with fewer YEC Christians seems to be safer and more peaceful.
 
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dad

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There's no point in denying what it means. God brought forth order from disorder.
It means water was there and we see what happened with it.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

So you may imagine rightly or wrongly that the waters and seas and dry land correlate with some supposedly deeper meanings or whatever. That does not matter. The issue is whether you admit that the dry land and seas and water were dry land and seas and water etc (Adam was a real man from whom woman was created by God, and placed in a real garden etc etc)

Your attempts at obfuscation are all we see here with no honesty or clear reply.
Since the Bible doesn't say it was worldwide, your addition to the story is just your attempt to make it acceptable to you.
Since only eight people and one single solitary boat full of animals was left of all life on earth, your attempted point is mooted.


Whether there was an actual flood or not is not God's message.
It is clear message that resounds through the bile actually, and one which Jesus Himself echoed. To say there was no 'actual' flood is like saying there was no actual Noah, no actual ark, no actual animals, no actual rainbow, no actual opening of windows of heaven or fountains of the deep, no actual first created man, no actual women created from his bone, no rivers, no trees, etc etc. You either believe it or don't. You do not get to trash it to prop up your religious misconceptions and science worship.
 
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dad

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You are still trying to convince us that accepting the old universe or possibly macroevolution leads to denial that God is the one behind it.

But it does not follow.
The God of the bible is not involved in the big bang fable in any way shape or form imaginable. That fable opposes Scripture and creation and exalts itself above God and His word so it will be brought down.
 
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dad

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If it makes sense, if it works together with other scientific areas, if it predicts what we will find and where, then its not "false religious story", but a real science.
It could only make sense if the reasons it works here also applied to the origins/far past/future issues. Just because an aspirin may work here, does not mean the universe popped out of an aspirin.
 
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dad

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You think that if the YEC Christians will take first chapters of Genesis allegorically instead of literally, they will start behave as perverts, divorce, drink, shoot people etc?

It seems to be the opposite, nations with fewer YEC Christians seems to be safer and more peaceful.
North Korea?
 
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trophy33

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The God of the bible is not involved in the big bang fable in any way shape or form imaginable. That fable opposes Scripture and creation and exalts itself above God and His word so it will be brought down.
There is no "God of the Bible". There is only God, who is one and true. And this God is God of everything, from the Bible to nature.

The big bang theory is not against this God. Its only against literal reading of Genesis 1, thats all.
 
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trophy33

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North Korea?
28 countries of the European Union, Norway, Switzerland, Canada, South Korea, Japan, etc.

The YEC Christians are mostly in the USA and the USA is not a very safe country - high crime rate, huge social/racial problems and tensions, many poor people...
Also abortions and divorces are one of the highest in the world. Christians even have higher divorce rate than atheists, there.
So, it will probably be in something else than in literal reading of Genesis, in the belief in global Flood and in YEC.
 
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dad

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There is no "God of the Bible".
That explains a lot.
There is only God, who is one and true. And this God is God of everything, from the Bible to nature.
Some other name than Jesus perhaps? Mohamed?
The big bang theory is not against this God.
Exactly, it depends if we are talking about this God or that god. Jesus created, so the big bang nonsense is against Scripture, which He was very much for.

Its only against literal reading of Genesis 1, thats all.
There are only two readings, a believing one and something else.
 
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dad

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28 countries of the European Union, Norway, Switzerland, Canada, South Korea, Japan, etc.

The YEC Christians are mostly in the USA and the USA is not a very safe country - high crime rate, huge social/racial problems and tensions, many poor people...
Also abortions and divorces are one of the highest in the world. Christians even have higher divorce rate than atheists, there.
So, it will probably be in something else than in literal reading of Genesis, in the belief in global Flood and in YEC.
So because murderers using a christian moniker are plentiful in the US, you think believing Jesus and the apostles and prophets is bad. OK. Look deeper.
 
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The Barbarian

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So because murderers using a christian moniker are plentiful in the US,

You identify as a Christian too. So do lots of people who remain evangelicals, but have lost the spirit of His Church:

The Scandal of the Evangelical Conscience
Why don't Christians live what they preach?

By Ronald J. Sider

Scandalous behavior is rapidly destroying American Christianity. By their daily activity, most "Christians" regularly commit treason. With their mouths they claim that Jesus is Lord, but with their actions they demonstrate allegiance to money, sex, and self-fulfillment.


The findings in numerous national polls conducted by highly respected pollsters like The Gallup Organization and The Barna Group are simply shocking. "Gallup and Barna," laments evangelical theologian Michael Horton, "hand us survey after survey demonstrating that evangelical Christians are as likely to embrace lifestyles every bit as hedonistic, materialistic, self-centered, and sexually immoral as the world in general."1 Divorce is more common among "born-again" Christians than in the general American population. Only 6 percent of evangelicals tithe. White evangelicals are the most likely people to object to neighbors of another race. Josh McDowell has pointed out that the sexual promiscuity of evangelical youth is only a little less outrageous than that of their nonevangelical peers.



Alan Wolfe, famous contemporary scholar and director of the Boisi Center for Religion and American Public Life, has just published a penetrating study of American religious life. Evangelicals figure prominently in his book. His evaluation? Today's evangelicalism, Wolfe says, exhibits "so strong a desire to copy the culture of hotel chains and popular music that it loses what religious distinctiveness it once had."2 Wolfe argues, "The truth is there is increasingly little difference between an essentially secular activity like the popular entertainment industry and the bring-'em-in-at-any-cost efforts of evangelical megachurches."3



It is not surprising that George Barna concludes, "Every day, the church is becoming more like the world it allegedly seeks to change."4 We have very little time, he believes, to reverse these trends. African Christian and famous missions scholar Professor Lamin Sanneh told Christianity Today recently that "the cultural captivity of Christianity in the West is nearly complete, and with the religion tamed, it is open season on the West's Christian heritage.
https://www3.dbu.edu/jeanhumphreys/SocialPsych/evangelicalmind.htm


you think believing Jesus and the apostles and prophets is bad.

I would encourage you and your fellows to begin following Jesus and the Apostles and the Prophets.
 
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The Barbarian

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How would a liar who got his book and account and history all wrong be great or powerful?

Calling Jesus a "liar" for using parables is probably not a good idea. Please reconsider.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable he spoke to them: The kingdom of heaven is like to leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, until the whole was leavened. [34] All these things Jesus spoke in parables to the multitudes: and without parables he did not speak to them. [35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.
 
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dad

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You identify as a Christian too. So do lots of people who remain evangelicals, but have lost the spirit of His Church:
I try not to be a murderer though, and would not use the moniker as an excuse if I were.


I would encourage you and your fellows to begin following Jesus and the Apostles and the Prophets.
Thanks. I would encourage you to believe Scripture rather than worship science by believing it above all.
 
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dad

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Calling Jesus a "liar" for using parables is probably not a good idea. Please reconsider.
No way. I happen to know He is truth and not a liar. Those who claim His record is fairy stories or some parable rather than fact call Him a liar.
Matthew 13:33 Another parable he spoke to them: The kingdom of heaven is like to leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, until the whole was leavened. [34] All these things Jesus spoke in parables to the multitudes: and without parables he did not speak to them. [35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.

So the world did have a foundation, rather than being spit out by a godless hot soup. Interesting.

Not only that but it is about when Jesus was here, how He would say things that were never known before also. Bringing them to light and revealing what was hidden. Not some hiding of obvious facts that were already known, like the flood and creation! (Hiding from the Pharisees, yes, not from us)
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian suggests.
Calling Jesus a "liar" for using parables is probably not a good idea. Please reconsider.

No way. I happen to know He is truth and not a liar.

Then why to you call His parables "fairy stories?"Those who claim His record is fairy stories or some parable rather than fact call Him a liar.

Read it again, and learn:
Matthew 13:33 Another parable he spoke to them: The kingdom of heaven is like to leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, until the whole was leavened. [34] All these things Jesus spoke in parables to the multitudes: and without parables he did not speak to them. [35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.

So the world did have a foundation,

Of course it did. You just don't approve of the way He did it.

Not only that but it is about when Jesus was here, how He would say things that were never known before also.

God, you know. Or do you not approve of that, either?
 
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