Bible affirmation of God's Creation-Sabbath rest - vs week-day-1 statements

[BobRyan]

Catholic answers - address this question about "changing" the Sabbath from one day to another in this way

"Seventh-day Adventists insist that the Catholic Church has no scriptural warrant for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Is this true?"
What about the Seventh-day Adventist claim that the sabbath shouldn't have been changed to Sunday? | Catholic Answers

And of course - Catholic Answers weighs in on the topic as well

"While it is true that there is no New Testament record of a voice from the heavens instructing the infant Church, "Thou shalt change the day of thy worship and rest from Saturday to Sunday,"


But then we have this challenge:
"Adventists are mistaken in their belief that there is no New Testament evidence that supports such a change by the Catholic Church. Quite apart from the biblical proof of the apostolic Church’s authority to teach in God’s name (Mt 16:18–19, 18:17–18, Lk 10:16) and of God’s guarantee that this teaching would never fall into error (Mt 28:19–20, Lk 22:32, Jn 16:13), there is an impressive amount of evidence from Scripture that Christ and the apostles changed their day of corporate worship from Saturday to Sunday."

Of course a great many threads have been started on this board trying to find that evidence for what the Bible calls - 'week-day-1'

(BTW -- that quote was also from the same link as posted above)


================================ question for the careful Bible student

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:

"from week day one to week-day one shall all mankind come before Me to worship" as we have in Is 66:23 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath.

Answer: "no."

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:
"Week-day one was made for mankind.. the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" as we have in Mark 2:27-28 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

Answer: "no.

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:
"Remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" as we have in Ex 20:8 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

Answer: "no.

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:
"week day 1 is the Holy day of the Lord" as we have in Isaiah 58:13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

Answer: "no.

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:
"the next week day 1 - nearly the entire town came together to hear Gospel preaching" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath.

Answer: "no.

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:
"they kept asking that the Gospel be presented to them again on the next week day 1" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

Answer: "no.

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:
" 4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every week day 1 and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks." as we have in Acts 18:4 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

Answer: "no.

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:
"the first day is the Lord's day" as we have the Bible for "the SEVENTH day is the Sabbath" in Ex 20:10 and in Is 58:13.

================================================

Recall that the "Sabbath" designation for the Bible 7th day Sabbath is often found in the NT. But not once do we find "Lord's day" for week-day-1 or "the new Christian Sabbath" as the term for week-day-1 in the NT.

Sooooo - -lacking all of that "actual evidence".

All we have is the documented claim that they make - that they changed the day of worship that God gave - from the seventh day.... to week-day-1.

The fact that they did claim to make such a change is not only supported by the "Catholic Answers" article - but also discussed on this thread starting here --
Apr 8, 2015 #1

 

[BobRyan]

we have Catholic Documents -- admitting that as given in the Bible the term "Lord's Day" refers to the Bible Sabbath - the 7th Day and not week-day-1.

The argument is not that the term "Lord's Day" does not exist in the Bible -- rather the argument is that the NT first century writers never say it is week-day-1 even though numerous times in the NT text - week-day-1 is mentioned.

By contrast "the seventh day" is mentioned many times in the NT as "Sabbath" even after the cross.
True in both OT and NT.

here is another Catholic document that mentions the "Lord's Day"

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church


======================================
Convert's Catechism
Full text of "The convert's catechism of Catholic doctrine"

3. The Third Commandment.

Q. What is the Third Commandment?

A. The Third Commandment is: Remember

that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

---------------------------50

Q. Which is the Sabbath day ?

A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday ?

A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday be-
cause the Catholic Church, in the Council of
Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity
from Saturday to Sunday.

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute
Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Satur-
day, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sun-
day, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apos-
tles on a Sunday.

Q. By what authority did the Church substitute
Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Satur-
day by the plenitude of that divine power which
Jesus Christ bestowed upon her.

Q. What does the Third Commandment com-
mand?

A. The Third Commandment commands us to
sanctify Sunday as the Lord's Day.

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 20 says that a one-time event happened on week-day-1 (again not calling it "the Lord's Day" so as not to confuse the reader). The "excuse"/reason given for this one-time event was that Paul was leaving the next day -- according to the text itself.
meanwhile - here is the actual Bible.

"the Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28.
Is 58:13 - the Sabbath "is the Holy Day of the LORD"
"The seventh day is the Sabbath of LORD thy God" Ex 20:10

Indeed - in Rev 1 there is no "week day 1 is the Lord's Day"... But the NT reader does have these texts to guide them.


With proof posted many places on other threads -- including
Oct 3, 2015 #387

 

[BobRyan]

While I do not agree with the "edit and change" language some have applied to the Sabbath Commandment -- I am glad to see that BOTH sides of the Sabbath vs Sunday debate AGREE on some Bible details -- so obvious they are hard to miss.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians - written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

 

[klutedavid]

we have Catholic Documents -- admitting that as given in the Bible the term "Lord's Day" refers to the Bible Sabbath - the 7th Day and not week-day-1.

The argument is not that the term "Lord's Day" does not exist in the Bible -- rather the argument is that the NT first century writers never say it is week-day-1 even though numerous times in the NT text - week-day-1 is mentioned.

By contrast "the seventh day" is mentioned many times in the NT as "Sabbath" even after the cross.
True in both OT and NT.

here is another Catholic document that mentions the "Lord's Day"

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church


======================================
Convert's Catechism
Full text of "The convert's catechism of Catholic doctrine"

3. The Third Commandment.

Q. What is the Third Commandment?

A. The Third Commandment is: Remember

that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

---------------------------50

Q. Which is the Sabbath day ?

A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday ?

A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday be-
cause the Catholic Church, in the Council of
Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity
from Saturday to Sunday.

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute
Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Satur-
day, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sun-
day, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apos-
tles on a Sunday.

Q. By what authority did the Church substitute
Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Satur-
day by the plenitude of that divine power which
Jesus Christ bestowed upon her.

Q. What does the Third Commandment com-
mand?

A. The Third Commandment commands us to
sanctify Sunday as the Lord's Day.

Hello Bob.

I have evidence that the change in the day of breaking the bread, occurred in the first century.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

I have evidence that the change in the day of breaking the bread, occurred in the first century.

Bible evidence?

 

[klutedavid]

Bible evidence?

Hello Bob.

Bible evidence and external evidence.

 

[klutedavid]

Catholic answers - address this question about "changing" the Sabbath from one day to another in this way




And of course - Catholic Answers weighs in on the topic as well

"While it is true that there is no New Testament record of a voice from the heavens instructing the infant Church, "Thou shalt change the day of thy worship and rest from Saturday to Sunday,"


But then we have this challenge:
"Adventists are mistaken in their belief that there is no New Testament evidence that supports such a change by the Catholic Church. Quite apart from the biblical proof of the apostolic Church’s authority to teach in God’s name (Mt 16:18–19, 18:17–18, Lk 10:16) and of God’s guarantee that this teaching would never fall into error (Mt 28:19–20, Lk 22:32, Jn 16:13), there is an impressive amount of evidence from Scripture that Christ and the apostles changed their day of corporate worship from Saturday to Sunday."

Of course a great many threads have been started on this board trying to find that evidence for what the Bible calls - 'week-day-1'

(BTW -- that quote was also from the same link as posted above)


================================ question for the careful Bible student

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:

"from week day one to week-day one shall all mankind come before Me to worship" as we have in Is 66:23 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath.

Answer: "no."

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:
"Week-day one was made for mankind.. the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" as we have in Mark 2:27-28 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

Answer: "no.

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:
"Remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" as we have in Ex 20:8 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

Answer: "no.

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:
"week day 1 is the Holy day of the Lord" as we have in Isaiah 58:13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

Answer: "no.

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:
"the next week day 1 - nearly the entire town came together to hear Gospel preaching" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath.

Answer: "no.

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:
"they kept asking that the Gospel be presented to them again on the next week day 1" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

Answer: "no.

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:
" 4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every week day 1 and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks." as we have in Acts 18:4 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath

Answer: "no.

DID they ever find even ONE text saying:
"the first day is the Lord's day" as we have the Bible for "the SEVENTH day is the Sabbath" in Ex 20:10 and in Is 58:13.

================================================

Recall that the "Sabbath" designation for the Bible 7th day Sabbath is often found in the NT. But not once do we find "Lord's day" for week-day-1 or "the new Christian Sabbath" as the term for week-day-1 in the NT.

Sooooo - -lacking all of that "actual evidence".

All we have is the documented claim that they make - that they changed the day of worship that God gave - from the seventh day.... to week-day-1.

The fact that they did claim to make such a change is not only supported by the "Catholic Answers" article - but also discussed on this thread starting here --
Apr 8, 2015 #1

Hello Bob.

The link, 'Catholic.com/....', does not work.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

Bible evidence and external evidence.

This would be a good time to post the Bible support for changing/editing God's Law.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

The link, 'Catholic.com/....', does not work.

Not sure why that is... I have refreshed it and now it seems to work when I click it in the post quote. Try it now and see.

 

[klutedavid]

Not sure why that is... I have refreshed it and now it seems to work when I click it in the post quote. Try it now and see.

Hello Bob.

Now I can't even find the link?

Catholic.com/....

Where is the link?

 

[klutedavid]

Not sure why that is... I have refreshed it and now it seems to work when I click it in the post quote. Try it now and see.

Hello Bob.

I did some research myself and found the site.

www.catholic.com/tract/sabbath-or-sunday

You have a serious problem now, this link is not supporting your position. In fact the site names your church, the SDA as an offender.

"Some religious organizations (Seventh-day Adventists, Seventh-Day Baptists, and certain others) claim that Christians must not worship on Sunday but on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. They claim that, at some unnamed time after the apostolic age, the Church "changed" the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead." (www.catholic.com/tract/sabbath-or-sunday)

 

[Bob S]

I have not found any verse in all of the New Testament that would indicate observance of any day. We are free to assemble when we choose. Those who try to force their Sabbath belief system on others are doing so without any scriptural evidence. The law containing the Sabbath command was given to Israel exclusively. There is no history of any nation or people that God ever instructed to observe days accept Israel. Biblical Israel does not exist.

Christians are not under the 10 commandments like some try to make us believe. Paul made that quite clear and I will follow Paul instead of those who thump Sabbath observance. 2Cor 3:7-11

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

Now I can't even find the link?

Catholic.com/....

Where is the link?

Just click on the blue text in my OP - When I do it - it takes me right to the link.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

I did some research myself and found the site.

www.catholic.com/tract/sabbath-or-sunday

You have a serious problem now, this link is not supporting your position.

Well if you read "My position" from the OP on what that link says -- it does.

Details matter.

The OP does not say "Catholics are Seventh-day Adventists" nor does it say "Catholic Answers -- is Seventh-day Adventist" -- this is not the hard part.

Rather I said this "Catholic answers - address this question about "changing" the Sabbath from one day to another in this way

"Seventh-day Adventists insist that the Catholic Church has no scriptural warrant for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Is this true?"

That is a quote. They themselves bring up the subject of the change INSTEAD of saying "nothing at all was changed".

Obviously.

This point is irrefutable.

You have a serious problem now, this link is not supporting your position.

As we all can read from the OP - my position is that there was a "change" - and the link also admits the same glaringly obvious detail.

This is irrefutable.

======== THEY say this -

Full Question
Seventh-day Adventists insist that the Catholic Church has no scriptural warrant for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Is this true?
Answer
Not by a long shot. This question has been addressed by This Rock before, but perhaps I, as a convert to the Catholic Church from Seventh-day Adventism, can offer a fresh perspective on the matter.

While it is true that there is no New Testament record of a voice from the heavens instructing the infant Church, "Thou shalt change the day of thy worship and rest from Saturday to Sunday," Adventists are mistaken in their belief that there is no New Testament evidence that supports such a change by the Catholic Church.
===================== end quote

The fact that they think both their tradition and some extreme inference inserted into a few Bible texts will support the change is irrelevant to the claim being made in my OP - which is the claim that they themselves admit that a change did take place

This is irrefutable and we both know it.

 

[BobRyan]

Christians are not under the 10 commandments

Until you read Romans 3:31 AND Ephesians 6:2 - and 1 Cor 7:19 and remember that the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31;31-33 says the same LAW that Jeremiah knew about as the moral law of God is written on the heart and mind under the New Covenant.

 

[klutedavid]

Well if you read "My position" from the OP on what that link says -- it does.

Details matter.

The OP does not say "Catholics are Seventh-day Adventists" nor does it say "Catholic Answers -- is Seventh-day Adventist" -- this is not the hard part.

Rather I said this "Catholic answers - address this question about "changing" the Sabbath from one day to another in this way

"Seventh-day Adventists insist that the Catholic Church has no scriptural warrant for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Is this true?"

That is a quote. They themselves bring up the subject of the change INSTEAD of saying "nothing at all was changed".

Obviously.

This point is irrefutable.



As we all can read from the OP - my position is that there was a "change" - and the link also admits the same glaringly obvious detail.

This is irrefutable.

======== THEY say this -

Full Question
Seventh-day Adventists insist that the Catholic Church has no scriptural warrant for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Is this true?
Answer
Not by a long shot. This question has been addressed by This Rock before, but perhaps I, as a convert to the Catholic Church from Seventh-day Adventism, can offer a fresh perspective on the matter.

While it is true that there is no New Testament record of a voice from the heavens instructing the infant Church, "Thou shalt change the day of thy worship and rest from Saturday to Sunday," Adventists are mistaken in their belief that there is no New Testament evidence that supports such a change by the Catholic Church.
===================== end quote

The fact that they think both their tradition and some extreme inference inserted into a few Bible texts will support the change is irrelevant to the claim being made in my OP - which is the claim that they themselves admit that a change did take place

This is irrefutable and we both know it.

Hello Bob.

On top of it now.

The Catholic church claimed there was a change in the day, but they insist that the New Testament said so. In the New Testament the day was changed by the apostles and not the Catholic church.

As Frs. Rumble and Carty point out in Radio Replies, special honor is shown to Sunday throughout the New Testament. Christ rose from the dead on Sunday, and he first appeared to his disciples that Easter Sunday evening (Jn 20:19). One week later—and from the context we can see that this meant the following Sunday—Jesus appeared to them again when Thomas was present (John 20:26). Luke records that Sunday was observed by the Christian community from the very beginning: "On the first day of the week when we gathered to break bread" (Acts 20:7). To "break bread" refers to the celebration of the Eucharist (Mt 26:26, Mk 14:22). Paul ordered the Corinthians to gather their offertory collections on Sunday (1 Cor 16:2); that set the scriptural precedent we follow today of gathering our offerings on Sunday during Mass. John records in Rev. 1:10 that he was granted a vision of heaven’s own worship while he was at worship ("caught up in spirit") on "the Lord’s day." John’s disciple Ignatius of Antioch tells us in his Letter to the Magnesians that "the Lord’s day" is not the ancient Sabbath; therefore, "the Lord’s day" must refer to Sunday. (See This Rock, September 1994, "The Fathers Know Best.")

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

On top of it now.

The Catholic church claimed there was a change in the day, but they insist that the New Testament said so.

Indeed they argue that tradition is fully equal to the Bible and their tradition made the change - but that the Bible also shows this change.

They just never find a text that actually does that.

In the New Testament the day was changed by the apostles and not the Catholic church.

If that were true - some Bible text would say it.

It does not.

The point remains. This thread is about "Bible affirmation" of either the actual Bible Sabbath or of week-day-1 as the weekly day of rest and worship.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ rose from the dead on Sunday, and he first appeared to his disciples that Easter Sunday evening (Jn 20:19).

John 20:19 is the same day as the resurrection - we all agree Jesus was not resurrected "weekly" but once. And it was on Sunday. He celebrated the last supper once .. it was on thursday. ... He was crucified once... it was on Friday... He was born once.

.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them.

Eight days from Sunday - Monday a week later.

—Jesus appeared to them again when Thomas was present (John 20:26).

True... are now suggesting a Monday - day of worship?

Luke records that Sunday was observed by the Christian community from the very beginning:

Not in any text in the Bible. Rather Luke records in Acts 2 that they met "every day" to break bread and Luke records a one time meeting in Acts 20:7 as a farewell departure meeting where Paul plans "all day Sunday travel".


"On the first day of the week when we gathered to break bread" (Acts 20:7).

Paul ordered the Corinthians to gather their offertory collections on Sunday (1 Cor 16:2)

Paul says nothing at all about gathering anything on Sunday in 1Cor 16:2 and mentions no worship service on week-day-1 and does not call it "the Lord's Day" in 1Cor 16.

All he says that each person should lay aside - by himself alone - at home some form of savings ahead of time each week before it is spent

By contrast the Bible says "EVERY Sabbath" they gathered in worship at the Synagogue to hear Gospel preaching - Acts 18:4

Not ONCE do we find "every week day 1 they gathered in their homes to hear gospel preaching" or Gathered in their churches to hear Gospel preaching"

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Bob.

Thanks for your reply.

indeed they argue that tradition is fully equal to the Bible and their tradition made the change - but that the Bible also shows this change.

There was definitely a change to the day that occurred within the first century. To cite the Catholic tradition as being the cause of this change to that day, is ridiculous Bob.

They just never find a text that actually does that.

Both New Testament letters and external letters, both attest to the change of the day.
I have read four external manuscripts that talk of the change in the day. You cannot avoid this fact, your interpretation is impossible.

If that were true - some Bible text would say it.

Of course the New Testament text declares the new day.

Bob, you are a member of a small religious community, a church with it's own peculiar interpretation. You reject Bible translations, you reject early church letters, you will reject anything that does not support your belief. It's that simple Bob.

When are you folk going to publish your own Bible, a proper translation of the Koine Greek?

Why do you use the current translations when they do not say, what you want then to say?