Bibical Texts: to be or not to be

[Epiphoskei]

the worst thing is where they take Lucifer out and put in O morning star Isaiah 14:12 and the same translation says that Jesus is the Morning Star, so Jesus was cast out of heaven and weaken the nations, according to the NIV! and of course let's not forget it bearing false witness against Elhanan for killing Goliath :

The logic behind this escapes me. If A and B are called X, then A is B? That's not a valid logical argument. Do you know what Lucifer means? It's the Latin word for the morning star.

There are zero Hebrew texts of Samuel that don't say Elhanan killed Goliath. The King James translators made a decision to change the text based on Chronicles. I don't have a problem with that, because I've long ago come to terms with the fact that the text of Samuel was corrupted in transmission fairly severely in multiple places. What I do have a problem with is using a seventeenth century English translation as a measuring stick of what the Hebrew text, not the other way around.

 

[Hentenza]

KJVO arguments are bunk since the KJV is a translation from the original languages and has translation and historical mistakes. I like the KJV and read it often but it is in a dead language where words have changed meaning through the centuries and advances in hermeunetics have made newer translations much more accurate.

Take 1 King 16:33 for example.

32And he reared up an altar for Baal in the house of Baal, which he had built in Samaria. 33And Ahab made a grove; and Ahab did more to provoke the LORD God of Israel to anger than all the kings of Israel that were before him.



The word הָאֲשֵׁרָ֑ה was translated by the KJV writers as "grove" but Ahab made an idol called an Asherah (wooden idol of a Canaanite godess) which angered God. Ahab did not make a grove.



Here is another. 2 Kings 23:29


29In his days Pharaoh Nechoh king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates: and king Josiah went against him; and he slew him at Megiddo, when he had seen him.



Pharaoh Nechoh did not go against the King of Assyria as the KJV writers incorrectly wrote. Nechoh and the King of Assyria were allies not enemies.



To say that a translation is superior to the original language is problematic at best. No language translates directly to another. There are always things that are "lost in translation". Consulting the original languages for clarity is the correct hermeneutical process as part of any bible study.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Let's examine another error in the identification of who did what in the OT. The book of Daniel uses texts which all say that Nebuchadnezzar built the big idol and ran the fiery furnace and went crazy and was the father of Belshazzar. The problem is, at least on this last point, we know without doubt that the father of Belshazzar was Nabonidus. Nabonidus was of common birth - he and his son weren't even part of Nebuchadnezzar's dynasty. It's Nabonidus who inexplicably disappears from the historical record for at least seven years, leaving the rule of the kingdom to Belshazzar instead. There's no similar gap in the rule of Nebuchadnezzar when a regent was needed because the king was eating grass. And ANET 313 tells us that Nabonidus built an idol like no one had ever seen before, and placed it on a pedestal.

Lo and behold, if you look at the Dead Sea Scrolls, 4q242 gives us a different version of the story wherein Nebuchadnezzar was smitten with madness, except the smitten king was Nabonidus. This would tend to indicate to us that the Daniel stories were first written about Nabonidus, but were changed to ol' Neb because he was the big villain who destroyed the temple, and the Jewish editors of scripture felt the stories would be better if they were about him instead of the comparatively insignificant Nabonidus.

Yet the KJV gives the story according to the Hebrew text, Nebuchadnezzar and all. I don't disagree that such is the appropriate translation philosophy, but it still makes the KJV historically errant on this point. I would suggest the simplest way to deal with this is to take the Chicago view and argue that the scriptures are only inerrant in the autographs, not in 17th century translations.

 

[Epiphoskei]

In his days Pharaoh Nechoh king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates: and king Josiah went against him; and he slew him at Megiddo, when he had seen him.



Pharaoh Nechoh did not go against the King of Assyria as the KJV writers incorrectly wrote. Nechoh and the King of Assyria were allies not enemies.

Yep. Necho II fought the Babylonians to save his ally Assyria. It's thought that Josiah wouldn't let him because Judah had been so oppressed by Assyria in the past that they wanted it finished off for good. Babylon did end up finishing off Assyria for good, and then ended up carving out just as much of an empire as Assyria ever had, including Judah.

 

[Hupomone10]

I didn't realize this was a KJVO discussion. What's the thread it's carried on from, is it also kJVO?

Hentenza, is this a good discussion of the issue, or not so much.

I would like to read one since I have a friend who is adamant about the KJV and sooner or later we will have a discussion about it, avoided thus far.
i haven't studied this since 1980.

Blessings,
H.

 

[miamited]

hi HD3,

Here's where the comment was made:
The Minority Texts omit approximately 200 verses from the Scriptures. This is equivalent to 1st and 2nd Peter. Pause and consider that stunning fact!

I may have been mistaken, however, that you added it. It really isn't clear whether the original statement is your work or copy and pasted from some other source. It looked to me like you wrote: The answer is: and then there are five answers bulleted. After reading what follows below the answers though I now see that all of that whole post may be a copied source. If so, my apologies for laying the blame of that statement on you, but that should be carried on back to the source that you copied from.

It is still not fair to argue that the newer translations missing a few various and widespread sentences or words is equivilent to leaving out the whole of 1 and 2 Peter based on the previous argument that I wrote.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Epiphoskei]

Let's also not forget Psalm 145. Verse 13 in the ESV reads:

Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and your dominion endures throughout all generations.
The LORD is faithful in all his words
and kind in all his works.

Whereas the KJV only reads:

Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

One is tempted to snidely remark about the evil KJV translators who deliberately deleted the second half of this verse for some untoward, heretical purpose, in the same terms the copyists of Sinaiticus or Vaticanus are slandered by the Byzantine-text proponents.

Lest there be any doubt, it's clear that the second half of that verse was there when penned by the Psalmist. 145 is an alphabetic-acrostic psalm, and that verse is the line which begins with the Nun. As the KJV has it, the Hebrew alphabet skips Nun, going from Mem straight to Samekh.

 

[Hentenza]

I didn't realize this was a KJVO discussion. What's the thread it's carried on from, is it also kJVO?

Hentenza, is this a good discussion of the issue, or not so much.

I would like to read one since I have a friend who is adamant about the KJV and sooner or later we will have a discussion about it, avoided thus far.
i haven't studied this since 1980.

Blessings,
H.

Hi H.

I would call it typical. Not good nor bad. The arguments are predictable though.

 

[ChrisHolland619]

My pastor had a great sermon on this very subject.

"While we sit here and debate amongst ourselves, and write books and talk about men who have written books about who wrote what books in the Bible, did you know there there is actually a 5 part series of books that the sole purpose of is to debate who wrote a certain book in the Bible? You know what's funny? While we sit here and talk about who wrote what, and discuss who said who wrote what, Satan is pulling people into Hell. People are dying everyday and going to hell because instead of spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we're debating who physically hand wrote the book of Galatians."

Such a true statement.

 

[Epiphoskei]

If God doesn't want us to dispute whose hand wrote Galatians, why did he create historians?

 

[ChrisHolland619]

If God doesn't want us to dispute whose hand wrote Galatians, why did he create historians?

What..is..what? That statement doesn't even make sense on more than one level lol.

I am not getting into this at all. I just threw that out there for you folks to think about.

 

[Hentenza]

My pastor had a great sermon on this very subject.

"While we sit here and debate amongst ourselves, and write books and talk about men who have written books about who wrote what books in the Bible, did you know there there is actually a 5 part series of books that the sole purpose of is to debate who wrote a certain book in the Bible? You know what's funny? While we sit here and talk about who wrote what, and discuss who said who wrote what, Satan is pulling people into Hell. People are dying everyday and going to hell because instead of spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we're debating who physically hand wrote the book of Galatians."

Such a true statement.

Paul wrote Galatians. See, that took no time at all.

 

[His_disciple3]

The logic behind this escapes me. If A and B are called X, then A is B? That's not a valid logical argument. Do you know what Lucifer means? It's the Latin word for the morning star.

There are zero Hebrew texts of Samuel that don't say Elhanan killed Goliath. The King James translators made a decision to change the text based on Chronicles. I don't have a problem with that, because I've long ago come to terms with the fact that the text of Samuel was corrupted in transmission fairly severely in multiple places. What I do have a problem with is using a seventeenth century English translation as a measuring stick of what the Hebrew text, not the other way around.

go ahead refer the lucifer and Jesus by the same name and defend it all you want. I don't care if lucifer meant Epiphoskei, I wouldn't use it in any sense as the same name as you. much less My Lord and Saviour

 

[ChrisHolland619]

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." Titus 3:9

This scripture is applicable on many levels. The true point of what I'm saying is: Who cares? I mean yes, it's important to know stuff. Gotcha. But Christ commanded us to do a lot of things, and debating who wrote what wasn't one of them.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:19-20

Scripture that I'm SURE you're all well versed with. But apply that practically and you see how futile and pointless these arguments/debates are. Go spread the Gospel of Christ. No one cares who wrote the last chapter of Proverbs. That won't save anyone.

Again, I'm not bashing at all. Just giving you something to think about.

 

[Epiphoskei]

What..is..what? That statement doesn't even make sense on more than one level lol.

I am not getting into this at all. I just threw that out there for you folks to think about.

My point is that stopping people from going to hell is not the most important thing in life. Loving the Lord your God will all your heart, soul, mind, and strength is. If we do the latter, we will do the former to the full extent that God commands us, but if we raise the former above the latter, we make an idol out of the salvation of the unbeliever.

God created some of us with minds that can only fully worship God when employed in what I will loosely term academic discovery. There are no academic disputes which should not be had, because there is no realm of thought which was not made to be employed unto the glory of God.

 

[Epiphoskei]

go ahead refer the lucifer and Jesus by the same name and defend it all you want. I don't care if lucifer meant Epiphoskei, I wouldn't use it in any sense as the same name as you. much less My Lord and Saviour

Actually, though they don't literally mean the same thing, they're pretty similar. Lucifer is the Latin name for the morning star, and Epiphoskei refers to the period of night right "before the light" of the dawn. But, that's neither here nor there.

It remains the fact that Lucifer is the morning star - Venus, when it appears before the dawn. Also, the terms "morning star" and "Lucifer" are never applied to Satan by the scriptures. You are raising a bizarre interpretation of Isaiah 14 above scripture.

 

[ChrisHolland619]

My point is that stopping people from going to hell is not the most important thing in life. Loving the Lord your God will all your heart, soul, mind, and strength is. If we do the latter, we will do the former to the full extent that God commands us, but if we raise the former above the latter, we make an idol out of the salvation of the unbeliever.

God created some of us with minds that can only fully worship God when employed in what I will loosely term academic discovery. There are no academic disputes which should not be had, because there is no realm of thought which was not made to be employed unto the glory of God.

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." Titus 3:9

This scripture is applicable on many levels. The true point of what I'm saying is: Who cares? I mean yes, it's important to know stuff. Gotcha. But Christ commanded us to do a lot of things, and debating who wrote what wasn't one of them.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:19-20

Scripture that I'm SURE you're all well versed with. But apply that practically and you see how futile and pointless these arguments/debates are. Go spread the Gospel of Christ. No one cares who wrote the last chapter of Proverbs. That won't save anyone.

Again, I'm not bashing at all. Just giving you something to think about. If this is how you're using Gods ability that He has blessed you with while you debate these things, well, I don't understand that but more power to you.

But you cannot deny the fact that most people argue for the sake of arguing pointless things. This is a way that Satan gets a grasp. Focusing your attention on stupid pointless things while people die and go to hell because you (not you specifically, we in general) were too busy talking about something like this.

 

[His_disciple3]

Paul wrote Galatians. See, that took no time at all.

and satan's job got a lot easier for people picking books full of lies and calling them the Holy Bible, don't you see. the new modern translations are working all toward the one world religion. The Holy Bible for 350 years was the KJB that they picked up when they wanted to read the Holy Bible, but now they spend more time tearing down the KJB, so they can justify why they use a version of the Word of God. they will turn an incorruptable God into a corruptable how will they do this by changing His Holy Word by attacking the 400 year old Bible, saying it is no good for us anymore, My My open your eyes people !! and again let me say that the Holy Word of God and the attack on it from amongst the Church is not a laughing matter

 

[Epiphoskei]

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." Titus 3:9

This scripture is applicable on many levels. The true point of what I'm saying is: Who cares? I mean yes, it's important to know stuff. Gotcha. But Christ commanded us to do a lot of things, and debating who wrote what wasn't one of them.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:19-20

Scripture that I'm SURE you're all well versed with. But apply that practically and you see how futile and pointless these arguments/debates are. Go spread the Gospel of Christ. No one cares who wrote the last chapter of Proverbs. That won't save anyone.

Again, I'm not bashing at all. Just giving you something to think about. If this is how you're using Gods ability that He has blessed you with while you debate these things, well, I don't understand that but more power to you.

But you cannot deny the fact that most people argue for the sake of arguing pointless things. This is a way that Satan gets a grasp. Focusing your attention on stupid pointless things while people die and go to hell because you (not you specifically, we in general) were too busy talking about something like this.

You are raising evangelism above our worship of God.

 

[ChrisHolland619]

You are raising evangelism above our worship of God.

Explain to me how you are worshipping God. And that's a serious question, not a witty attempt at a smartalic retort.