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PuerAzaelis

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Objection 1: It would seem that by God's mercy all punishment of the damned, both men and demons, comes to an end. For it is written (Wis. 11:24): "Thou hast mercy upon all, O Lord, because Thou canst do all things." But among all things the demons also are included, since they are God's creatures. Therefore also their punishment will come to an end.

Reply to Objection 1: God, for His own part, has mercy on all. Since, however, His mercy is ruled by the order of His wisdom, the result is that it does not reach to certain people who render themselves unworthy of that mercy, as do the demons and the damned who are obstinate in wickedness. And yet we may say that even in them His mercy finds a place, in so far as they are punished less than they deserve condignly, but not that they are entirely delivered from punishment.

... just as the good angels were made happy through turning to God, so the bad angels were made unhappy through turning away from God. Therefore if the unhappiness of the wicked angels comes at length to an end, the happiness of the good will also come to an end, which is inadmissible.

As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xxi) Origen [*Cf. FP, Question [64], Article [2]] "erred in maintaining that the demons will at length, through God's mercy, be delivered from their punishment." But this error has been condemned by the Church for two reasons. First because it is clearly contrary to the authority of Holy Writ (Apoc. 20:9,10): "The devil who seduced them was cast into the pool of fire and brimstone, where both the beasts and the false prophets [*Vulg.: 'the beast and false prophet,' etc.] shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever," which is the Scriptural expression for eternity. Secondly, because this opinion exaggerated God's mercy in one direction and depreciated it in another. For it would seem equally reasonable for the good angels to remain in eternal happiness, and for the wicked angels to be eternally punished.


ST Supp Q. 99 — Aquinas 101
 
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PuerAzaelis

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As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xxi, 17,18), some evaded the error of Origen by asserting that the demons are punished everlastingly, while holding that all men, even unbelievers, are at length set free from punishment. But this statement is altogether unreasonable. For just as the demons are obstinate in wickedness and therefore have to be punished for ever, so too are the souls of men who die without charity, since "death is to men what their fall was to the angels," as Damascene says.

ST Supp Q. 99 — Aquinas 101
 
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PuerAzaelis

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FineLinen

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Hell precisely is the impossibility of sorrow for sin.

Hence, even the mercy of the all-merciful God cannot penetrate the rebel wills of the lost and bring them relief.

Tour of the Summa | Precis of the Summa Theologica of St Thomas Aquinas | Msgr P Glenn

NONSENSE!

“I am your God, I have moulded you with my own hands, and I love you with a love that has no limits. Do not run away but come back to me––not once, not twice, but always. You are my child. Please do not say that I have given up on you, that I cannot stand you anymore, that there is no way back. It is not true. I so much want you to be with me, to be close to me. I know all your thoughts, hear all your words, see all of your actions. And I love you because you are beautiful, made in my own image, an expression of my most intimate love. Do not judge or condemn yourself. Do not reject yourself. Let my love touch the deepest, most hidden corners of your heart and reveal to you your own beauty, a beauty that you have lost sight of, but which will become visible to you again in the light of my mercy. Come, come, let me wipe your tears, and let my mouth come close to your ear and say to you, ‘I love you'". - Fr Henri Nouwen

 
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Hillsage

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I would love to introduce you to the image and character of the God whom we serve.

JOH 8:7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

Anyone who thinks they've saved themselves doesn't know scripture for squat. He died for all, and in the eyes of God the TRUE ETERNAL/adios consequence of YOUR sins past PRESENT AND FUTURE were forgiven 2,000 years ago. Along with everyone else.

And FYI, the Greek word adios is the only Greek word that has ALWAYS met the definition of ETERNAL as we understand it today. The word aion being translated as AGE or ETERNAL based upon indoctrinated carnal minds of the early church...and Augustine, is no definition of the word AION at all.
 
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PuerAzaelis

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Hillsage

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In a way.

In Contra Julianum Augustine says, “There was nothing at all from which evil could arise except what is good.”

https://www3.nd.edu/~afreddos/summa-translation/Part 1/st1-ques49.pdf
Oh we know all about where evil came from...because the bible tells us.

AMO 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Some of us also know the 'reason' for evil. And then, there are also those of us who only 'think' they know. And their knowledge falls short of the 'His ways' which are above 'their ways'.
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
I would love to introduce you to the image and character of the God whom we serve.
JOH 8:7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."
Anyone who thinks they've saved themselves doesn't know scripture for squat. He died for all, and in the eyes of God the TRUE ETERNAL/adios consequence of YOUR sins past PRESENT AND FUTURE were forgiven 2,000 years ago. Along with everyone else.
And FYI, the Greek word adios is the only Greek word that has ALWAYS met the definition of ETERNAL as we understand it today. The word aion being translated as AGE or ETERNAL based upon indoctrinated carnal minds of the early church...and Augustine, is no definition of the word AION at all.
In Romans Paul used aionios and aidios as synonyms.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/
aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. God's power and Godhood cannot be "eternal, everlasting" if God, Himself, is only an indeterminate age long.
By definition aionios means eternal.
 
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Saint Steven

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Right, so it's pride/ self-righteousness and deception? A combo of items 1 and 2?

Not saying I'm immune from those things, far from it, but on this issue...well it's got me baffled.

Is it due to demonic influence or an unclean spirit maybe?
I think those speaking out against the greater hope today are victims.
The real perpetrators were the ones that gave us a bogus Bible translation and lexicon.

I had a strange thought today. Did God ever intend for the Bible to be used the way it is today? I see an awful lot of book worshipping going on. Biblidolatry. ???
 
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FineLinen

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Oh we know all about where evil came from...because the bible tells us.

AMO 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Some of us also know the 'reason' for evil. And then, there are also those of us who only 'think' they know. And their knowledge falls short of the 'His ways' which are above 'their ways'.

Dear Sage: These threads are filled with individuals who think they have somehow made a decision to follow Jesus. Then there are those among us who dokeo their way along, not knowing His ways in the slightest degree. We may know all the nuauces, and never hear His voice, "Follow Me".
 
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FineLinen

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I think those speaking out against the greater hope today are victims.
The real perpetrators were the ones that gave us a bogus Bible translation and lexicon.

I had a strange thought today. Did God ever intend for the Bible to be used the way it is today? I see an awful lot of book worshipping going on. Biblidolatry. ???

Dear Saint: Oh what a bedraggled lot we are. Some more than others, but bedraggled!

"There are many persons of combative tendencies, who read for ammunition, and dig out of the Bible iron for balls. They read, and they find nitre and charcoal and sulphur for powder. They read, and they find cannon. They read, and they make portholes and embrasures. And if a man does not believe as they do, they look upon him as an enemy, and let fly the Bible at him to demolish him. So men turn the word of God into a vast arsenal, filled with all manner of weapons, offensive and defensive." -Henry Ward Beecher
 
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Saint Steven

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Who is necessarily saying vast majority? Who knows that apart from God.

As for why he came:

Matthew 20:28 NLT
For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
In attempting to reason with the Damnationists, I often phrase things the way they think. I agree with you more than them. But their "narrow way and few that find it" doctrine means countless billions, right?

Here's a better application of "many" from my perspective.
How many were made sinners in verse nineteen?
The same number were made righteous. (as a comparative)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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Saint Steven

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Hell precisely is the impossibility of sorrow for sin.

Hence, even the mercy of the all-merciful God cannot penetrate the rebel wills of the lost and bring them relief.

Tour of the Summa | Precis of the Summa Theologica of St Thomas Aquinas | Msgr P Glenn
Let's attempt to apply some simple logic here.

If you were being picked up by the angels who were about to throw you in the Lake of Fire (as you had just witnessed thousands of others being tossed) exactly how long would it take you to become a believer?

Revelation 20:15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
 
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Charlie24

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Dear Saint: Oh what a bedraggled lot we are. Some more than others, but bedraggled!

"There are many persons of combative tendencies, who read for ammunition, and dig out of the Bible iron for balls. They read, and they find nitre and charcoal and sulphur for powder. They read, and they find cannon. They read, and they make portholes and embrasures. And if a man does not believe as they do, they look upon him as an enemy, and let fly the Bible at him to demolish him. So men turn the word of God into a vast arsenal, filled with all manner of weapons, offensive and defensive." -Henry Ward Beecher

This is a pretty bold statement coming from a believer of doctrine that was declared heresy in the 5th century and only making a comeback from the 19th century.
 
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Der Alte

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I think those speaking out against the greater hope today are victims.
The real perpetrators were the ones that gave us a bogus Bible translation and lexicon.
I had a strange thought today. Did God ever intend for the Bible to be used the way it is today? I see an awful lot of book worshipping going on. Biblidolatry. ???
I will believe you when you show me that only correct, peer reviewed, Bible and lexicon written by scholars who have studied at the graduate level. It is very easy for one to sit on his six and make pronouncements and entirely another to actually provide evidence. Until then it is nonsense. Here for example is the definition for kolasis, the word translated "punishment" in Matt 25:46.
Note the blue highlights the historical sources which the real scholars consulted. Real scholars don't make up meanings to fit their assumptions. They determine the meaning by how ancient writers used the words.

κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)
infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.
transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.—Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.[1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
A scholar who wishes to disprove this definition must review all the cited sources and show how the authors of BDAG mistranslated the word.
Since there are so many people claiming that the lexicons and Bible translations are wrong surely there must be some scholars, somewhere that supports them. If not there is a huge disconnect there.


 
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Der Alte

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Let's attempt to apply some simply logic here.
If you were being bound hand and foot by the angels who were about to throw you in the Lake of Fire (as you had just witnessed thousands of others being tossed) exactly how long would it take you to become a believer?
"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."- Ben Franklin.
 
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mmksparbud

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Let's attempt to apply some simply logic here.

If you were being bound hand and foot by the angels who were about to throw you in the Lake of Fire (as you had just witnessed thousands of others being tossed) exactly how long would it take you to become a believer?

And what makes you think angels will bind anyone hand and foot before they are thrown into the lake of fire?
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

That's sounds pretty instantaneous to me. Nobody being bound hand and foot there.
 
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