BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[zoidar]

I posted you and then caught up. And now I see that FL already gave that reference. One which you don't want to lift a finger to try and refute just like Der Alter. So now you want church father quotes. WHAT FOR? You both have proved to me that you aren't teachable. But I'll leave one last read for you, just to help FL.

QUOTES FOR YOU

The mass of men (Christians) say there is to be an end to punishment and to those who are punished.—St. Basil the Great

There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. -- Augustine (354-430 A.D.)

For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them...the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them. --Diodore of Tarsus, 320-394 A.D.

And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled...just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. --Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)

Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable. --Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.)

These, if they will, may go Christ's way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice. --Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19

The Word seems to me to lay down the doctrine of the perfect obliteration of wickedness, for if God shall be in all things that are, obviously wickedness shall not be in them. For it is necessary that at some time evil should be removed utterly and entirely from the realm of being.—St. Macrina the Blessed

In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one. --St. Jerome, 331-420

For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with iteself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body. --Gregory of Nyssa, 335-390

The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace. --Theodore of Mopsuestia, 350-428

We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. –Clement of Alexandria

Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon. --Olnmpiodorus (AD 550)

Wherefore, that at the same time liberty of free-will should be left to nature and yet the evil be purged away, the wisdom of God discovered this plan; to suffer man to do what he would, that having tasted the evil which he desired, and learning by experience for what wretchedness he had bartered away the blessings he had, he might of his own will hasten back with desire to the first blessedness ...either being purged in this life through prayer and discipline, or after his departure hence through the furnace of cleansing fire.--Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.)

That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, "You will never get out until you hqave paid the last penny" unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the debt. --Peter Chrysologus, 435

I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. --St. Jerome

"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ's blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other's promotion. The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints." – COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)

Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. -- Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church

While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour.--Athanasius, the Great Father of Orthodoxy

Our Lord descends, and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up... The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man, in order to liberate the prisoners. --Jerome

In the liberation of all no one remains a captive! At the time of the Lord's passion the devil alone was injured by losing all the of the captives he was keeping. --Didymus, 370 AD

While the devil imagined that he got a hold of Christ, he really lost all of those he was keeping. --St. Chrysostom, 398 AD

Stronger than all the evils in the soul is the Word, and the healing power that dwells in him, and this healing He applies, according to the will of God, to everyman. The consummation of all things is the destruction of evil…to quote Zephaniah: “My determination to gather the nations, that I am assemble the kings, to pour upon them mine indignation, even say all my fierce anger, for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent”…Consider carefully the promise, that all shall call upon the Name of the Lord, and serve him with one consent.—Origen (185 to 254 A.D.) He founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.

The nations are gathered to the Judgment, that on them may be poured out the wrath of the fury of the Lord, and this in pity and with a design to heal. in order that every one may return to the confession of the Lord, that in Jesus' Name every knee may bow, and every tongue may confess that He is Lord. All God's enemies shall perish, not that they cease to exist, but cease to be enemies.—Jerome (340 to 420 A.D), commenting on Zephaniah 3:8-10

Mankind, being reclaimed from their sins, are to be subjected to Christ in he fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all. –Didymus the Blind

So then, when the end has been restored to the beginning, and the termination of things compared with their commencement, that condition of things will be re-established in which rational nature was placed, when it had no need to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; so that when all feeling of wickedness has been removed, and the individual has been purified and cleansed, He who alone is the one good God becomes to him "all," and that not in the case of a few individuals, or of a considerable number, but He Himself is "all in all." And when death shall no longer anywhere exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then verily God will be "all in all" --Origen, De Prinicipiis, 3.6.3. (Origen founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.)

The Son "breaking in pieces" His enemies is for the sake of remolding them, as a potter his own work; as Jeremiah 18;6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state. --Eusebius of Caesarea (65 to 340 A.D). Bishop of Caesarea

Our Savior has appointed two kinds of resurrection in the Apocalypse. 'Blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection,' for such come to grace without the judgment. As for those who do not come to the first, but are reserved unto the second resurrection, these shall be disciplined until their appointed times, between the first and the second resurrection.-- Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (340-397 A.D.)

We think, indeed, that the goodness of God, through His Christ, may recall all His creatures to one end, even His enemies being conquered and subdued.... for Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. --Origen (185 to 254 A.D.) He founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.

For it is needful that evil should some day be wholly and absolutely removed out of the circle of being. --Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church

In the present life God is in all, for His nature is without limits, but he is not all in all. But in the coming life, when mortality is at an end and immortality granted, and sin has no longer any place, God will be all in all. For the Lord, who loves man, punishes medicinally, that He may check the course of impeity. --Theodoret the Blessed, 387-458

When death shall no longer exist, or the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then truly God will be all in all. --Origen

All men are Christ's, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet. He is the Savior, not of some and the rest not. For how is He Savior and Lord, if not the Savior and Lord of all?—Clement of Alexandria

That all these quotes have to do with universialism I believe is a misunderstanding. We need to have more of the text, not just small sections, because this would give a better idea of their true teaching on the subject.

I know I asked for quotes, I'm thankful for you posting them!

 

[FineLinen]

I need to borrow this for the other thread. I'll bring it right back when finished. - lol

Dear Steve: Freely receive, freely give. Anything I have is yours. Do not bring it back, it is yours.

 

[FineLinen]

I've googled but didn't found what Philip Schaff based the idea that 4 out of 6 schools of the Early Chuch taught universialism. I would like to find a true ground for this in his teachings, before I take his statement as true. The first five hundred years of Church is a pretty bold statement that needs to be backed up by proof.

That some of the Early Church fathers taught universialism is no surprise, but that most of them taught it, I have yet to see.

Dear Zoidar: Why are you out of your closet? It matters not what any believe! Hear Him.

The First 500 Years

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

 

[zoidar]

Dear Zoidar: Why are you out of your closet? It matters not what any believe! Hear Him.

The First 500 Years

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

Thanks I'll see what it says. I don't see myself changing my belief in the two "destinations". I think there is way too much to prove universialism wrong, but it's good to know what and why people believe like they do.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

When I was saved in 2010 I got the Holy Spirit. It was an experience of getting clean inside, like I never had sinned in my whole life. I felt pure as a new born, and that was what I was, born again through God's Holy Spirit.

How do you reconcile that personal revelation of amazing grace with damnation/ annihilation theology? They can't both be true, can they?

Why not re-read Rev 20:7 to the end considering your experience and what happens to the nations in the fire.

 

[zoidar]

How do you reconcile that personal revelation of amazing grace with damnation/ annihilation theology? They can't both be true, can they?

Why not re-read Rev 20:7 to the end considering your experience and what happens to the nations in the fire.

Because I got saved from something I wasn't saved from before.

Rev is very symbolic and not the best book to make theology from IMO.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Because I got saved from something I wasn't saved from before.

Good, so you discovered God saves, and the baptism of fire and the spirit purifies. But I don't see how your reply answers my question. Where does eternal torment fit in?

Rev is very symbolic and not the best book to make theology from IMO.

Rev 20:7 - 22:8 is a linear narrative. Whether you like it or not, the nations get the holy fire treatment and emerge repentant. Just as prophesied in Isaiah and Ezekiel, and just like you, me and so many others have experienced - praise God. The usual Bible narrative pattern follows:

• creation/ the gift
• the fall/ sin
• destruction/ captivity
• salvation/restoration/ return/ renewal.

Revelation is the big one, the ultimate Jubilee. It's good news for all. That's the gospel promise, sealed at Calvary, consummated at the end of the age. It's not rocket surgery man.

 

[Saint Steven]

I've googled but didn't found what Philip Schaff based the idea that 4 out of 6 schools of the Early Chuch taught universialism. I would like to find a true ground for this in his teachings, before I take his statement as true. The first five hundred years of Church is a pretty bold statement that needs to be backed up by proof.

That some of the Early Church fathers taught universialism is no surprise, but that most of them taught it, I have yet to see.

Not sure if this helps. The quote is from "The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or
Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other
theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

 

[FineLinen]

"God's justice is reforming all things—even hell—to the way He intended: wholeheartedly delighting in Him together."

Dr. Robin Parry

Robin Parry’s Hope & Hell videos!

 

[Hillsage]

Because I got saved from something I wasn't saved from before.

Rev is very symbolic and not the best book to make theology from IMO.

Many years ago I heard, AND have repeated often since, that; "The dumber someone is, the sooner they go to the book of the Revelation to prove their point."

PS; Not that I'm saying that's what Shrewd is doing.

 

[Der Alte]

..

<SS>Not sure if this helps. The quote is from "The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :
"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or
Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other
theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."<SS>[/QUOTE]...[/QUOTE]
No, it doesn't help much at all. The entire 2 page article can be read at CCEL.com. I read it yesterday. There is no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence in the entire article. There is a bibliography at the end of the article but it does not include any direct historical evidence, only then modern books.
You might want to trust your beliefs on the word of two scholars who have been dead at least 100 years. Go for it. But I require substantial evidence NOT opinions.

 

[Der Alte]

I've googled but didn't found what Philip Schaff based the idea that 4 out of 6 schools of the Early Chuch taught universialism. I would like to find a true ground for this in his teachings, before I take his statement as true. The first five hundred years of Church is a pretty bold statement that needs to be backed up by proof.
That some of the Early Church fathers taught universialism is no surprise, but that most of them taught it, I have yet to see.

Here is a link to the Schaff-Herzog article. click on pg. 96 and 97. I read it yesterday there is no credible, verifiable, historical evidence only the unsupported opinions of the scholars. The bibliography at the end does not list any historical writings only then modern books. But UR believers quote the above excerpt like Moses, himself, carried it down from Mt Sinai.
- Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[Lazarus Short]

No, it doesn't help much at all. The entire 2 page article can be read at CCEL.com. I read it yesterday. There is no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence in the entire article. There is a bibliography at the end of the article but it does not include any direct historical evidence, only then modern books.
You might want to trust your beliefs on the word of two scholars who have been dead at least 100 years. Go for it. But I require substantial evidence NOT opinions.

I have noticed that you rely heavily on sources you, correct me if I am wrong, have called "irrefutable." They are a trinity of the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. I happen to know that, they too, cite an variety of sources and a range of opinion. I find the first two to be biased, and that is clearly understandable, but as a Christian, I find the Talmud offensive in parts, and I fail to understand your liking for it.

 

[Hillsage]

I have noticed that you rely heavily on sources you, correct me if I am wrong, have called "irrefutable." They are a trinity of the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. I happen to know that, they too, cite an variety of sources and a range of opinion. I find the first two to be biased, and that is clearly understandable, but as a Christian, I find the Talmud offensive in parts, and I fail to understand your liking for it.

That's the problem I ran into with him years ago. ALL his references walk on water none of ours do. All his references prove to not meet the very standards he puts on us. Page 97 of his quote had a half page of BIBLIOGRAPHY. So unless he can prove that all that bibliography was lies from the pit of his hell, it's simply his indoctrinated opinion against ours. That's why I've no interest in his opinions anymore. His sources are no more credible than ours.

 

[Hillsage]

Thanks I'll see what it says. I don't see myself changing my belief in the two "destinations". I think there is way too much to prove universialism wrong, but it's good to know what and why people believe like they do.

I posted a 'like' because you said it's good to know what and WHY people believe like they do.

I didn't post it because you believe there's way too much to prove Universalism wrong. You haven't even begun to plumb the depths of scholarly support for this doctrine IMO. As for the eternal hellers having more? Of course they do, they are the 'majority POV' in the church today. But when I was growing up as a Roman Catholic we used that very same 'majority POV' excuse to prove that everyone else was WRONG back then too. IOW all PRO-TESTAMENT and just a Johnny come lately pro-tester (IOW Protestant). I was told over and over that we were "the one true holy catholic and apostolic church with roots going all the way back to Peter." All Protestants were just bailing out of 'THE church' who ruled for a 1,000 years before Martin Luther. A truth heretic who was branded as a heretic worthy of death by 'THE church' of his day.

You've not said 'what' brand of Christian you are in good ole Sweden. What church denomination category do you fall into?

 

[zoidar]

I posted a 'like' because you said it's good to know what and WHY people believe like they do.

I didn't post it because you believe there's way too much to prove Universalism wrong. You haven't even begun to plumb the depths of scholarly support for this doctrine IMO. As for the eternal hellers having more? Of course they do, they are the 'majority POV' in the church today. But when I was growing up as a Roman Catholic we used that very same 'majority POV' excuse to prove that everyone else was WRONG back then too. IOW all PRO-TESTAMENT and just a Johnny come lately pro-tester (IOW Protestant). I was told over and over that we were "the one true holy catholic and apostolic church with roots going all the way back to Peter." All Protestants were just bailing out of 'THE church' who ruled for a 1,000 years before Martin Luther. A truth heretic who was branded as a heretic worthy of death by 'THE church' of his day.

You've not said 'what' brand of Christian you are in good ole Sweden. What church denomination category do you fall into?

Protestant, no specific denomination. I attend Lutheran, Catholic, Pentecostal churches.

 

[mmksparbud]

Good, so you discovered God saves, and the baptism of fire and the spirit purifies. But I don't see how your reply answers my question. Where does eternal torment fit in?



Rev 20:7 - 22:8 is a linear narrative. Whether you like it or not, the nations get the holy fire treatment and emerge repentant. Just as prophesied in Isaiah and Ezekiel, and just like you, me and so many others have experienced - praise God. The usual Bible narrative pattern follows:

• creation/ the gift
• the fall/ sin
• destruction/ captivity
• salvation/restoration/ return/ renewal.

Revelation is the big one, the ultimate Jubilee. It's good news for all. That's the gospel promise, sealed at Calvary, consummated at the end of the age. It's not rocket surgery man.

For the saved. For those written in the book of life---for the lost there is no restoration. Nothing you have said changes that fact. Nor one scripture says there is salvation for the lost. You can twist the meaning of all the scriptures you want. Not one says that the lost will inherit eternal life, not one says the lost will have salvation.

 

[Lazarus Short]

For the saved. For those written in the book of life---for the lost there is no restoration. Nothing you have said changes that fact. Nor one scripture says there is salvation for the lost. You can twist the meaning of all the scriptures you want. Not one says that the lost will inherit eternal life, not one says the lost will have salvation.

Pardon me, but have you forgotten the parable of the lost sheep? Have you forgotten that God said He would restore the fortunes of Sodom? I could go on and on, or I could just begin to post my entire 200+ page book manuscript on the subject.

Why do you think we are twisting and you are not? I saw some serious twisting in the pro-hell KJV - the version most often followed by the pro-hell crowd.

 

[Hillsage]

Protestant, no specific denomination. I attend Lutheran, Catholic, Pentecostal churches.

I obviously go to Catholic Churches for weddings and family funerals. Dad had 11 siblings and mom had 10. Mom asked me to do the eulogy for dad. I did, with a little ‘gospel’ added. The priest even had tears at one point I was told. And after, several (non family Protestants?) came up and asked if I was a preacher? Well of course I am. I just never wasted money obtaining a degree from man to be considered ‘called and qualified’, like Alter recognizes.

I’ve spent lots of time in the Lutheran churches also because of my wife’s family. We don’t jump around though. We are firmly established in the independent Charismatic Church we go to now. It’s the biggest church in our town, running almost a 1,000. Leadership loves me and my servant wife for what we bring to help their goals. But they do not want me to openly talk universalism.

 

[Hillsage]

Pardon me, but have you forgotten the parable of the lost sheep? Have you forgotten that God said He would restore the fortunes of Sodom? I could go on and on, or I could just begin to post my entire 200+ page book manuscript on the subject.

Why do you think we are twisting and you are not? I saw some serious twisting in the pro-hell KJV - the version most often followed by the pro-hell crowd.

Of course it's the PRO HELL BIBLE. The word "hell" is in the;

Authorized King James Version 54x
New King James Version 32x
American Standard Version 13x
New American Standard Bible 13x
Revised Standard Version 12x
Young's Literal Trans 0x

Amazing how hell has diminished in all those newer translations. Interpretations where even the modern scholars have had to swallow their indoctrinated bias to try and save a little face for translational credibility. Then there's that old YLT at the bottom of the list with 0, which has preached the truth since 1862. And that same author also wrote the 'still respected' and published Young's Greek Hebrew Concordance. But his bible isn't really considered a CREDIBLE SOURCE here either, by 'those who'd like for us to THINK they are Moses.