BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[Shrewd Manager]

False experts have no reliability date at all.

Your pithy words of wisdom have a certain endearing quality, Jeff. But wouldn't you agree that, when interpreting scripture, the allegorical sense is generally to be preferred as it yields an enduring spiritual interpretation? After all, it's what we mainly use to find Jesus in the OT, eg typologies. So why prefer the literal sense of scripture, which is more at the mercy of translators and our own historical context/ prejudices?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I said provide verses---just one would do---that states God gives eternal life to the lost---or says that people will come out of hell to live in the presence of God--not one of those verses says that.

Too easy bro:

Wherever this water flows, there will be all kinds of animals and fish, because it will bring life and fresh water to the Dead Sea. (Ez 47:9)

For He is the God of the living, not the dead.

And, for a bonus:

Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:1-2)

The selfsame nations who were consumed by heavenly fire in Rev 20:9 and cast into the lake of fire for unbelief in Rev 20:15.

Given life! Healed! Pluck the stringed music and dance topless.

 

[Der Alte]

Too easy bro:
Wherever this water flows, there will be all kinds of animals and fish, because it will bring life and fresh water to the Dead Sea. (Ez 47:9)
For He is the God of the living, not the dead.
And, for a bonus:
Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:1-2)
The selfsame nations who were consumed by heavenly fire in Rev 20:9 and cast into the lake of fire for unbelief in Rev 20:15.
Given life! Healed! Pluck the stringed music and dance topless.

Anyone can make the Bible mean almost anything by quoting selective verses out-of-context. Let us read a bit further in Rev 22. First vs. 1-2 then 14-15.

Rev 22:1-2
(1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
(2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

Vs. 14 the faithful entering the city of God while outside there are still dogs, sorcerers etc.
Here is another passage.

Rev 21:4-8
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Note, vs. 4 “there shall be no more death”
Vs. 5 “I make all things new.”
“no more death, all things new” but in vs. 8 eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
This is a continuous narrative later events, in this passage happened later they cannot be said to happen before earlier events.
Note vs. 7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." There is a condition in this verse. The converse of this condition is "He that overcometh NOT shall NOT inherit all things; and I will NOT be his God, and he shall NOT be my son."

 

[Lazarus Short]

Christianity was born in 1st century Israel. The Christian belief in hell almost certainly was derived from the Jewish belief in such a place, before and during the time of Jesus, and they called it both sheol and gehenna both translated as hell in the NT.

"...almost certainly..."? If I said that, you would be demanding credible evidence from reliable sources.

 

[mmksparbud]

Jesus came to seek and save the lost, not to tell them to get lost. So every last lost gets saved. All things get restored/ renewed (Acts 3:21, Matt 19:28, Rev 21:5 etc). Sounds like you're not really confident in Jesus' ministry and God's promises there. I know the world's in tatters, but we need to keep the faith.

Yes, He did!! And He does and we have our whole lives to respond to His calling because after we die---He will no longer save the lost---they are lost---HE TRIES TO PPREVENT THAT FROM HAPPENING! But He does not force.
Still waiting for the verses that state that God will give salvation to those that are lost, that He gives eternal life also to the lost, that anyone will come out of hell and spend eternity in His presence.

 

[FineLinen]

Yes, He did!! And He does and we have our whole lives to respond to His calling because after we die---He will no longer save the lost---they are lost---HE TRIES TO PPREVENT THAT FROM HAPPENING! But He does not force.
Still waiting for the verses that state that God will give salvation to those that are lost, that He gives eternal life also to the lost, that anyone will come out of hell and spend eternity in His presence.

Do you know that over 15000 children under the age of five (5) die today worldwide.

“This, in a nutshell, is that will: that everything handed over to me by the Father be completed - not a single detail missed - and at the wrap-up of time I have everything and everyone put together, upright and whole.”

“Every person the Father gives me eventually comes running to me. And once that person is with me, I hold on and don’t let go.”

 

[Der Alte]

"...almost certainly..."? If I said that, you would be demanding credible evidence from reliable sources.

I think I already have presented the evidence multiple times quoting from the Jewish Encyclopedia Judaica, Encyclopedia and the Talmud all of which document that the Jews believed in a place of fiery punishment which they called both גיא־הנם/Ge hinnom and שׁאל/sheol. In the LXX sheol is translated in Greek as hades and Ge hinnom is Gaienna. Gehenna is derived from the Hebrew gehinnom so pray tell how is that from Greek paganism?
And we know the first few thousand Christians were Israelite Jews.
Now I would like to see some credible evidence that the Christian belief in hell came from Greek or Scandinavian paganism.

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you know that over 15000 children under the age of five (5) die today worldwide.

“This, in a nutshell, is that will: that everything handed over to me by the Father be completed - not a single detail missed - and at the wrap-up of time I have everything and everyone put together, upright and whole.”

“Every person the Father gives me eventually comes running to me. And once that person is with me, I hold on and don’t let go.”

And that has what to do with this discussion?
Still waiting for those verses.

 

[FineLinen]

And that has what to do with this discussion?
Still waiting for those verses.

Dear Lady: It has everything to do with this subject! The Restitution of ALL things is spelled HOPE.

Every common sparrow falls, our Father sees every one!

15,000 children under the age of five die today and every day worldwide. He beholds every one!

“I see Jesus in every human being. I say to myself, this is hungry Jesus, I must feed him. This is sick Jesus. This one has leprosy or gangrene; I must wash him and tend to him. I serve because I love Jesus.” - Mother Teresa

"The whole of created life shall be delivered.."

 

[mmksparbud]

Dear Lady: It has everything to do with this subject! The Restitution of ALL things is spelled HOPE.

Every common sparrow falls, our Father sees every one!

15,000 children under the age of five die today and every day worldwide. He beholds every one!

“I see Jesus in every human being. I say to myself, this is hungry Jesus, I must feed him. This is sick Jesus. This one has leprosy or gangrene; I must wash him and tend to him. I serve because I love Jesus.” - Mother Teresa

"The whole of created life shall be delivered.."

Has nothing to do with what happens in hell or after it.

I am still waiting for those verses!!

 

[Der Alte]

...

Dear Lady: It has everything to do with this subject! The Restitution of ALL things is spelled HOPE.
Every common sparrow falls, our Father sees every one!
15,000 children under the age of five die today and every day worldwide. He beholds every one!
“I see Jesus in every human being. I say to myself, this is hungry Jesus, I must feed him. This is sick Jesus. This one has leprosy or gangrene; I must wash him and tend to him. I serve because I love Jesus.” - Mother Teresa
"The whole of created life shall be delivered.."

The 15,000 children that God beholds scripture has already addressed their fate also the mentally handicapped etc..

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

 

[mmksparbud]

The 15,000 children that God beholds scripture has already addressed their fate also the mentally handicapped etc..

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

The mentally handicapped and children below the age of accountability are not held as sinners by God.

Jas_4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

What is your point?

 

[Hillsage]

"...almost certainly..."? If I said that, you would be demanding credible evidence from reliable sources.

Of course he would “demand” that. And then, if you point out that the Jews had been deceived into a lot of false beliefs in the 500 silent years when God was silent AND the Pharisees, along with their lies which Jesus hated, came into power, he says NOTHING. Noting to prove his Jewish Encyclopedia SOURCE is ‘true to God’, and not just ‘true to the lie’ that the Jews believed at the time of Jesus.

 

[Hillsage]

Yes, He did!! And He does and we have our whole lives to respond to His calling because after we die---He will no longer save the lost---they are lost---HE TRIES TO PPREVENT THAT FROM HAPPENING! But He does not force.
Still waiting for the verses that state that God will give salvation to those that are lost, that He gives eternal life also to the lost, that anyone will come out of hell and spend eternity in His presence.

And if HE didn’t “draw” you, you never had an opportunity to “respond” according to your Bible.

Joh 6:44 No one, can come unto me, except, the Father who sent me, draw him,—and, I, will raise him up, in the last day

IOW His Drawing and His will as to WHEN you are “ordained to believe”

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

And where exactly is your verse saying God has to do that in this life ONLY? According to your indoctrination, that is. ​

 

[FineLinen]

The mentally handicapped and children below the age of accountability are not held as sinners by God.

Jas_4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

What is your point?

Dear Lady: We are sinners, not by what we do, we are sinners by nature (what we are). It is called utter depravity.

Can you point me to the age of accountability rule in Canon?

 

[mmksparbud]

And if HE didn’t “draw” you, you never had an opportunity to “respond” according to your Bible.

Joh 6:44 No one, can come unto me, except, the Father who sent me, draw him,—and, I, will raise him up, in the last day

IOW His Drawing and His will as to WHEN you are “ordained to believe”

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

And where exactly is your verse saying God has to do that in this life ONLY? According to your indoctrination, that is. ​

Where is your verse that He does this after death, much less after hell. No one has given me any such verse.

 

[Der Alte]

The mentally handicapped and children below the age of accountability are not held as sinners by God.
Jas_4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
What is your point?

The 2 vss I quoted say basically the same thing you did, where there is no law there is no sin. No sin, no punishment. Most reasonable people think that children, infants, mentally handicapped should not be punished, scripture affirms that.

 

[Hillsage]

Where is your verse that He does this after death, much less after hell. No one has given me any such verse.

It has been given by me before, you just choose to ignore.

Below is the judgment After death where ‘FIRE saves’ on the day works are judged.

1 Cor 13:11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be SAVED; yet so as BY FIRE.

Next verse is after death when EVERY KNEE bows and confesses. Both YOURS and THEIRS.

Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

IOW same judgement seat and same confession from you and them. And if you think God is taking “glory” in sending people to eternal never ending and therefore purposeless torture, then you serve a God made in the image of the hearts of ‘past’ fallen men. And you just stand on their shoulders, never once even challenging that it’s a well rehearsed lie, from the father of lies.

2Tim 2:3 or this is right and acceptable before God our Saviour, or this is right and acceptable before God our Saviour, 4who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

Now you can believe that ‘your will’ can trump God’s will’ as the devil would have you believe, or you can agree with me that His will, will ultimately win.

 

[Hillsage]

Dear Lady: We are sinners, not by what we do, we are sinners by nature (what we are). It is called utter depravity.

Can you point me to the age of accountability rule in Canon?

Here’s my Bible based ‘opinion’.

Matt 18:9 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.n

 

[Der Alte]

...

Of course he would “demand” that. And then, if you point out that the Jews had been deceived into a lot of false beliefs in the 500 silent years when God was silent AND the Pharisees, along with their lies which Jesus hated, came into power, he says NOTHING. Noting to prove his Jewish Encyclopedia SOURCE is ‘true to God’, and not just ‘true to the lie’ that the Jews believed at the time of Jesus.

I do so like it when people talk about me behind my back. I wonder what they fear, that they do that?
Most of what you are falsely criticizing I addressed in my Gehenna post. I will not repeat it here since you obviously didn't read it before.
Jesus knew what the Jewish leaders believed and practiced and He often criticized them but Jesus never criticized their belief in Hell. Also Jesus, Himself, never said that all mankind will be saved even after they are dead. Neither does God, Himself.