BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

Saint Steven · Dec 21, 2019

Charlie24 said:
My ways are not mans ways, saith the Lord.

As long as you reason mans ways in the place of Gods ways, you will come to such conclusions.

Please. These are reasonable questions.
Are you claiming that God is unreasonable?

Saint Steven said: ↑
How long is a period of time?
Should the punishment/correction fit the crime?

Charlie24 said: ↑
But for a period of time, right? Then all will be forgiven, right? Hogwash!!

Der Alte · Dec 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
How long is a period of time?
Should the punishment/correction fit the crime?

Maybe we should stay out of God's business and let Him decide what is/is not just punishment for the crimes. Jesus said the punishment was "eternal punishment."
Just for your edification the Greek word aionios, translated eternal in Matt 25:46, does in fact mean "eternal."
In twenty four [24] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
List of verses:1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27,
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” sometimes refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.

[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[3]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]

In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house only lasts a little longer which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.

In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.

In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[8] 1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17] John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

[18] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[19]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[20]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[21]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[22] John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[23] John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.

In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[24]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[25]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."

According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity.

Saint Steven · Dec 21, 2019

mmksparbud said:
He paid the price for the saved---not for the lost!

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Saint Steven · Dec 21, 2019

Charlie24 said:
You're the only person I've talked to on this forum that I can't for the life of me understand what you are talking about. I haven't had this problem with anyone else.

That's funny. I thought you had met FL. - lol

Charlie24 · Dec 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Please. These are reasonable questions.
Are you claiming that God is unreasonable?

Saint Steven said: ↑
How long is a period of time?
Should the punishment/correction fit the crime?

Charlie24 said: ↑
But for a period of time, right? Then all will be forgiven, right? Hogwash!!

I was saying that Steven is unreasonable by questioning the plainly written Word of God.

A period of time would be anything short of eternity.

Hillsage · Dec 21, 2019

mmksparbud said:
What are you talking about?? I only answered your post and I MOST CERTAINLY DO UNDERSTAND WHAT GOD HAS SAID And that is exactly what I have stated. It is you that has no comprehension at all about what happens after death. All you guys can do is quote endless, useless passages from others like you who haven't got a clue about any of it! You are leading others to false doctrines and that is more than sad.

Most of those who 'think' they've studied, usually just prove one thing to me. How quickly they can dodge the truth. And, as for you, I'm sure you aren't answering what you have repeated a hundred times here. That repetition being, the price for sin which you have all stood in agreement on. That is, until I asked you why Jesus isn't paying that very same price YOU WOULD PAY if you were unsaved. Period, that is the question you need to prove to me. I'm not interested in your bunny trails leading away from nailing down your belief on what happens to people who don't accept Jesus in this age. But don't bunny trail anywhere else until you've proven you even you really believe what you preached.

I'm not putting words IN YOUR MOUTH concerning what YOU BELIEVE, like your side so often does to us. I am holding you accountable for the very words that have repeatedly come OUT OF YOUR MOUTH in print.

Charlie24 · Dec 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That's funny. I thought you had met FL. - lol

LOL, FL does have a point to make, unlike some.

Saint Steven · Dec 21, 2019

Charlie24 said:
This is blasphemy!!!

What is your definition of "blasphemy", and why is it your favorite word?

Lazarus Short · Dec 21, 2019

Charlie24 said:
But for a period of time, right? Then all will be forgiven, right? Hogwash!!

Eternal means eternal
Everlasting means everlasting
Forever means forever
Damnation means damnation

Only God is eternal, everlasting and forever.

Damnation means damnation, but in the KJV, I have seen "condemnation" rendered as "damnation." It's not only the evening news and Hollywood that want more impact.

Charlie24 · Dec 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
What is your definition of "blasphemy", and why is it your favorite word?

Why do you say it is my favorite word?

Blasphemy can mean a few different things but results in a direct action taken.

Basically it is profane speech or thoughts directed toward God.

Saint Steven · Dec 21, 2019

Charlie24 said:
I was saying that Steven is unreasonable by questioning the plainly written Word of God.

A period of time would be anything short of eternity.

Are you claiming that your English translation of choice is the very Word of God. "This is blasphemy!!!" - lol

Anything short of eternity? Like an eon? (aeonian)

Lazarus Short · Dec 21, 2019

Charlie24 said:
My ways are not mans ways, saith the Lord.

As long as you reason mans ways in the place of Gods ways, you will come to such conclusions.

Indeed they are not man's ways, and the Law this God gave to Moses specified no punishment worse than death, and no hint of any punishment beyond the grave. It is man who wants those of lesser moral stature to "go to Hell." God never said it.

Charlie24 · Dec 21, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
Only God is eternal, everlasting and forever.

Damnation means damnation, but in the KJV, I have seen "condemnation" rendered as "damnation." It's not only the evening news and Hollywood that want more impact.

Well, I take Gods Word at face value, I have no reason not to on the subject of hell.

You can explain to God, when you meet Him, why you chose to see it otherwise.

Charlie24 · Dec 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Are you claiming that your English translation of choice is the very Word of God. "This is blasphemy!!!" - lol

Anything short of eternity? Like an eon? (aeonian)

How about we wait and let God determine that.

mmksparbud · Dec 21, 2019

Saint Steven said:
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

If they accept it!! If they reject it---their sins are not forgiven!

Saint Steven · Dec 21, 2019

Charlie24 said:
Why do you say it is my favorite word?

Blasphemy can mean a few different things but results in a direct action taken.

Basically it is profane speech or thoughts directed toward God.

You have been using the word repeatedly.

You seem to consider anything that you don't agree with to be blasphemy.
You throw around the word "heretical" carelessly as well.

Saint Steven · Dec 21, 2019

mmksparbud said:
If they accept it!! If they reject it---their sins are not forgiven!

You claimed that Christ didn't pay the price for the lost. What do these scriptures say? Nothing about accepting or rejecting.

Saint Steven said: ↑
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Saint Steven · Dec 21, 2019

Charlie24 said:
How about we wait and let God determine that.

How long do you want to wait?
God has already determined that.

Lazarus Short · Dec 21, 2019

Charlie24 said:
Well, I take Gods Word at face value, I have no reason not to on the subject of hell.

You can explain to God, when you meet Him, why you chose to see it otherwise.

OTOH, knowing that the Book is God's Word only in the original Hebrew and Greek, I recognize that English translations are just that: translations rendered by men, and all the various versions prove that none are perfect. I think that is why some cling with such white-knuckled grips on the KJV. King James' authorization did not make it perfect, nor did the scholars who worked on it, for scholarship is better today than in 1611. My. Two. Cents.

Charlie24 · Dec 21, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
Indeed they are not man's ways, and the Law this God gave to Moses specified no punishment worse than death, and no hint of any punishment beyond the grave. It is man who wants those of lesser moral stature to "go to Hell." God never said it.

Have you read the Pauline letters? We are no longer under the Law since Jesus came and fulfilled the Law for mankind that we may be saved.

It's a new ballgame called the New Testament or better known as the New Covenant.

It's not the Law of Moses we are to heed, it's the Law of Christ.

BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

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