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Of course it's the PRO HELL BIBLE. The word "hell" is in the;
Authorized King James Version 54x
New King James Version 32x
American Standard Version 13x
New American Standard Bible 13x
Revised Standard Version 12x
Young's Literal Trans 0x
Amazing how hell has diminished in all those newer translations. Interpretations where even the modern scholars have had to swallow their indoctrinated bias to try and save a little face for translational credibility. Then there's that old YLT at the bottom of the list with 0, which has preached the truth since 1862. And that same author also wrote the 'still respected' and published Young's Greek Hebrew Concordance. But his bible isn't really considered a CREDIBLE SOURCE here either, by 'those who'd like for us to THINK they are Moses.
False experts have no reliability date at all.
GREAT! WONDERFUL! Before this point, I mistakenly thought that was not possible ...No kidding - but who is the false expert? It all comes down to what experts, references, books and Bible versions we trust. Everything else follows. I did my homework and found the KJV to have critical errors, majestic language notwithstanding.
Remember my rule: honest translation first...and only after that, theology.
Pardon me, but have you forgotten the parable of the lost sheep? Have you forgotten that God said He would restore the fortunes of Sodom? I could go on and on, or I could just begin to post my entire 200+ page book manuscript on the subject.
Why do you think we are twisting and you are not? I saw some serious twisting in the pro-hell KJV - the version most often followed by the pro-hell crowd.
GREAT! WONDERFUL! Before this point, I mistakenly thought that was not possible ...
That point though, is NOT welcome by KJVONLYISTS, isit?
Oh, Please don't post it! I won't read it! I read my bible and that is what defines my doctrines. Now, if you can quote the verse that states that God willo give salvation to the lost, or says that God will give eternal life to the lost, or that states that the lost will come out of hell and live in the presence of God---by all means post those and I will read them.
All? UR could hardly exist without some Scriptural support, as follows.
1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. The Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.”
2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.
3. The Creation is properly a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell – with the Earth and humans as a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.
4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.
5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell, so Satan is NOT the Prince of Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.
6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.
7. The Law God gave to Moses warned of death, but did not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments were delivered in the real world, and the most severe was simple death. See Genesis 2:17, Exodus through Deuteronomy, Romans 6:23.
8. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes death, destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.
9. All people die, but none of them go to Eternal Conscious Torment – only to the grave or pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the center or marginal reference column.
10. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.
11. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.
12. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.
13. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7,16.
14. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous, due to the presence of God’s Spirit of Life in each of us. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.
15. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s also cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but Mary K Baxter depicts Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on… Fictional descriptions of Hell, especially as seen in the works of Dante and Baxter, are clearly fictional and un-Biblical.
16. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to destroy them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.
17. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.
18. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.
19. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – usually as fire, but sometimes as soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.
20. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.
21. “Hell” is used in the King James Version (and others) to replace four other words: “Sheol,” “Hades,” “Gehenna” and “Tartarus.” None of these four refer to a place of damnation or Eternal Conscious Torment. See any decent dictionary, especially the Oxford English Dictionary.
22. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is an imposition, an insertion into the text. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.
23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, such as the “Hel” we find in Norse mythology, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.
I said provide verses---just one would do---that states God gives eternal life to the lost---or says that people will come out of hell to live in the presence of God--not one of those verses says that.
I acknowledged in my post that there were a variety of beliefs pre- and during the 1st century but that fact does not refute my post. For example, we know that the Pharisees believed in the resurrection, the Sadducees did not. Neither refutes the other.I have noticed that you rely heavily on sources you, correct me if I am wrong, have called "irrefutable." They are a trinity of the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. I happen to know that, they too, cite an variety of sources and a range of opinion. I find the first two to be biased, and that is clearly understandable, but as a Christian, I find the Talmud offensive in parts, and I fail to understand your liking for it.
What or who determines if a translation is honest? If someone does not know a language how can they determine if it is translated honestly or not? It has been my experience that members of heterodox religious groups consider a Bible correctly translated when it supports their beliefs and it it does not then they consider it to be incorrectly translated. They don't seem to bother with anything mundane like Greek grammars, Greek lexicons etc.No kidding - but who is the false expert? It all comes down to what experts, references, books and Bible versions we trust. Everything else follows. I did my homework and found the KJV to have critical errors, majestic language notwithstanding.
Remember my rule: honest translation first...and only after that, theology.
Anything written before the 1940s did not have access to the archaeological evidence discovered since then e.g. Qumran and Dead sea scrolls, Nag Hamadi manuscripts etc.Thank you for the backup! I have both the Strong's and Young's Concorcances, but using the KJV as I do to disprove Hell, I use the former far more. I suppose one poster here would accept no "expert" who has been dead for over a century, but since when does Truth have an expiration date?
That's a great threat. You should use it more often. - lolI could just begin to post my entire 200+ page book manuscript on the subject.
I remember first looking at concordances in the early 70's, as my first step to furthering my own conclusions based upon letting the bible interpret the bible with the guide of the Spirit. I didn't like Young's as much as the Strong's, as I recall. But part of that may have been the 'saying' floating around that said; "Strong's is for the strong Christian, Young's is for the young Christian and Cruden's is for the crude Christian."Thank you for the backup! I have both the Strong's and Young's Concorcances, but using the KJV as I do to disprove Hell, I use the former far more. I suppose one poster here would accept no "expert" who has been dead for over a century, but since when does Truth have an expiration date?
These two points contradict each other. You say "creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence" Then you say "God ...created evil."...
2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence.
....
4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil.
If there is no eternal punishment, there is no eternal life.
It took me a while to get my head around that.
Matthew 25:46 NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Proves diddly-squat. That an English word is similar to a word in another language, in another country, 100s of years ago is almost worthless for determining the meaning in current English.A bit more about "Hel," the Norse goddess/ogress of her underworld realm of "Helheim," or "House of Hel": ...
Naturally, I don't believe in Norse mythology, but I offer this as one of the origins of the Hell myth. Both forms, "Hel" and "Hell," are found in Beowulf and the 1611 KJV. If that does not worry the reader, it should.
And that is the same thing we wonder about heterodox groups such as JW, LDS, WWCG, OP, UPCI, INC, UU etc. Also your post is just as irrelevant as mine. Meaningless generalities, painting everyone with a big black brush with no, zero, none credible evidence.Hillsage said:I wonder just how much of the church today is simply led by the spirit of deception, which the church was warned about in scripture for 400 years before that spirit influenced so many false doctrines, leading to a Reformation for some of us here?
For the saved. For those written in the book of life---for the lost there is no restoration. Nothing you have said changes that fact. Nor one scripture says there is salvation for the lost. You can twist the meaning of all the scriptures you want. Not one says that the lost will inherit eternal life, not one says the lost will have salvation.
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