Bethlehem

[46AND2]

Is Luke Wrong About the Time of Jesus' Birth? - Come Reason Ministries

The first point is the terminology Luke uses when writing about Quirinius' governorship over Syria. In stating that Quirinius controlled the Syrian area, Luke doesn't use the official political title of "Governor" ("legatus"), but the broader term "hegemon" which is a ruling officer or procurator. This means that Quirinius may not have been the official governor of Judea, but he was in charge of the census because he was a more capable and trusted servant of Rome than the more inept Saturninus.

Justin Martyr's Apology supports this view, writing that Quirinius was a "procurator", not a governor of the area of Judea. 6 As Gleason Archer writes, "In order to secure efficiency and dispatch, it may well have been that Augustus put Quirinius in charge of the census-enrollment in Syria between the close of Saturninus's administration and the beginning of Varus's term of service in 7 B.C. It was doubtless because of his competent handling of the 7 B.C. census that Augustus later put him in charge of the 7 A.D. census." 7 Archer also says that Roman history records Quirinius leading the effort to quell rebels in that area at exactly that time, so such a political arrangement is not a stretch.

I'm well aware of apologist's attempts to reconcile the discrepancy, but they all include special pleading and speculation.

Judea was not under Roman rule prior to Quirinius' governorship, and would not have been subject to a Roman census. When the census was actually performed in 6AD, it caused an uprising, and nearly a war, in Judea, which would not have occurred if they had become accustomed to being under Roman rule for a decade.

 

[Tinker Grey]

You'd have thought God could have made his word clear.

 

[Steve Petersen]

This treats on the subject of the census, and references Roman, Jewish, and Christian sources for the problem of Luke's census.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I'm well aware of apologist's attempts to reconcile the discrepancy, but they all include special pleading and speculation.

Judea was not under Roman rule prior to Quirinius' governorship, and would not have been subject to a Roman census. When the census was actually performed in 6AD, it caused an uprising, and nearly a war, in Judea, which would not have occurred if they had become accustomed to being under Roman rule for a decade.

Besides, if Luke is to be believed, then Mary and Joseph were living in Galilee, not Judea -- When did Galilee fall under Roman rule?

 

[46AND2]

This treats on the subject of the census, and references Roman, Jewish, and Christian sources for the problem of Luke's census.

Couple of questions...is this author an expert of Roman history? I have not found much info about him online.

Secondly, much of his argument is predicated on evidence of taxation of Judea prior to the annexation of Judea. This is not disputed. But taxation did not necessarily require a census. A Roman census was simply not required of Judea until it came under Roman control, and any taxation (or census) performed by Judea prior to 6 AD would have been done by Herod himself (or Archelaus), and had no involvement by Roman authorities whatsoever

 

[46AND2]

Besides, if Luke is to be believed, then Mary and Joseph were living in Galilee, not Judea -- When did Galilee fall under Roman rule?

Yes, this is true. Galilee was still under control of one of Herod's sons, Antipas.

So in order for Joseph to be required to come to Judea for the census, it would mean that Augustus decreed that ALL people who had ancestry in Judea would be required to come, regardless of whether or not they lived in a country that was under Roman rule. Did people have to travel from China for the census? How could they enforce this?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Couple of questions...is this author an expert of Roman history? I have not found much info about him online.

Secondly, much of his argument is predicated on evidence of taxation of Judea prior to the annexation of Judea. This is not disputed. But taxation did not necessarily require a census. A Roman census was simply not required of Judea until it came under Roman control, and any taxation (or census) performed by Judea prior to 6 AD would have been done by Herod himself (or Archelaus), and had no involvement by Roman authorities whatsoever.

He cites his sources.

So, if Rome asked Herod to collect some for them, he would tell them to buzz off? I think not.

Are you an expert on Roman history?

 

[HitchSlap]

Their zeal to show the Bible wrong sometimes causes them to make a technical mistake.

And then they wonder why I call them 'Internet scientists.'

When do Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus?

 

[46AND2]

He cites his sources.

So, if Rome asked Herod to collect some for them, he would tell them to buzz off? I think not.

Are you an expert on Roman history?

I didn't say that Rome didn't collect taxes. I'm saying that they didn't directly perform censuses on provinces which were not under their control.

I don't care if he cites sources. I would like to know what his expertise is.

No, I am not an expert on Roman history, but I haven't tried to publish any history books on it, either. I would prefer to get my education from people who are qualified to teach the subject.

Would you want a bus driver to teach you how to fly a plane?

 

[AV1611VET]

When do Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus?

December 25th.

 

[HitchSlap]

December 25th.

Why?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why?

Possibly because God wanted to put an end to Saturnalia as a major holiday.

 

[HitchSlap]

Possibly because God wanted to put an end to Saturnalia as a major holiday.

Was Jesus born 2,013 years ago or 2,015-20 years ago?

 

[AV1611VET]

Was Jesus born 2,013 years ago or 2,015-20 years ago?

I'm kinda picky, so I go with 4BC.

 

[HitchSlap]

I'm kinda picky, so I go with 4BC.

Why?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why?

Boolean standards and all.

 

[HitchSlap]

Boolean standards and all.

Was it science or the bible that gave you your "Boolean standards" of a 4 B.C.E. date?

 

[AV1611VET]

Was it science or the bible that gave you your "Boolean standards" of a 4 B.C.E. date?

As I have stated before, I go with Ussher's chronology for the sake of Occam's razor.

This line of questioning is what happens to those who don't.

 

[HitchSlap]

As I have stated before, I go with Ussher's chronology for the sake of Occam's razor.

This line of questioning is what happens to those who don't.

Then I'll take this with a grain of salt.

Was Jesus born in December?

 

[AV1611VET]

Then I'll take this with a grain of salt.

Suit yourself ... what else is new?

Was Jesus born in December?

I wasn't there ... so I'll say 'yes.'

And had I actually been there, I'm sure I would agree.