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Best Argument For or Against God's Existence

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OzSpen

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One thing I have found out in my investigation into the work of NT scholars and historians is; it is good to read the work of varied people; conservative, moderate and liberal. The other thing I have noticed, is the conservative one's are usually the ones who get a paycheck from a conservative christian institutions and have motivation to toe the line. It has also become evidence in my investigation, that the conservative scholars, tend to play fast and loose with the historical method.

These are assertions supported by your generalisations. This proves ZERO. You are not dealt with any piece of evidence to support your claim.

I have just completed a PhD research-only dissertation (British system) where the majority of scholars on the orals panel of 5 were non-conservative scholars. All of them passed this evangelical scholar because they could not refute my historical method. I, as an evangelical scholar, have NOT played fast and loose with the historical method. I've been rigid in my pursuit of that method. My own experience refutes your view.

Yours was a nice try at ridicule, though!
 
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OzSpen

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Nice try.

Red herring fallacy. I provided the evidence and you didn't make even an attempt to reply to the evidence. Obviously you don't want a serious discussion on this topic when you throw away the evidence with a 'nice try' piece of nothingness.
 
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nonbeliever314

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Justin Martyr who was born in Samaria about AD 100 quotes Luke's Gospel over and over;

Provide the actual document.

Irenaeus (ca AD 115-190) wrote in Against Heresies (3.1) of 'Luke, the follower of Paul, preserved in a book the gospel which that apostle preached' and in 3.14 of that writing, Irenaeus provides an account of the content of that gospel in which he referred to the book we now know as the Gospel of Luke.

Provide the actual document.

Tertullian (ca AD 160-220) stated that his teacher, Cerdon received only Luke's Gospel.

Provide the actual document.

Tatian (ca AD 110-172) includes Luke in the Diatessaron, a harmony of all 4 Gospels from about AD 150.

Provide the actual document.

Even the pagan, Celsus (ca 170s) knows Luke's Gospel and attacks it.

Provide the actual document.

Eusebius (ca AD 265-339) in his Ecclesiastical History (3.4) affirms positively both Luke's Gospel and the Book fo Acts as being written by Luke.

Provide the actual document.


The game of telephone doesn't work well for 20 kids in a classroom in 5 mins, and doesn't work for however many people past it on for over a 1000 years.
 
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OzSpen

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This is what you said. You are claiming that eyewitness testimony can somehow verify the supernatural claims present in the bible. You are claiming that the fact that some 500 people claim to have seen something is proof positive that it happened. My assertion is that eyewitness testimony is not a good judge of these things. Even assuming that the claims made in Corinthians and Luke were true, why would 500 people telling you that something happened be sufficient evidence if that something is phenomenally unlikely or even impossible? Hence my questioning of "how many eyewitness accounts would you require for <unlikely or impossible scenario>" - it is not a red herring, it is directly relevant to your claim, because if 500 eyewitnesses would not be enough to confirm those things you will have understood my problem.

Your contemporary worldview is clouding your discussion. You stated: 'My assertion is that eyewitness testimony is not a good judge of these things'. It is nothing more than your assertion, which proves nothing. I've provided evidence of the importance of eyewitness testimony in first century culture, but you don't seem to be able to grapple with the evidence from that century. We are NOT discussing eyewitnesses in the American or Australian court system. We are discussing eyewitnesses in first century society - which were extremely important. So important that scholar, Dr Richard Bauckham, has devoted an entire book of 538pp to Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony (Eerdmans 2006). His conclusion was:

'The burden of this book is that the category of testimony is the one that does most justice to the Gospels both as history and as theology. As a form of historiography testimony offers a unique access to historical reality that cannot be had without an element of trust in the credibility of the witness and what he or she has to report. Testimony is irreducible; we cannot, at least in some of its most distinctive and valuable claims, go behind it and make our own autonomous verification of them; we cannot establish the truth of testimony for ourselves as though we stood where the witnesses uniquely stood. Eyewitness testimony offers us insider knowledge from involved participants' (Bauckham 2006:505).​

I don't expect you to be convinced because you have a bias against eyewitness testimony, but the NT does not. Neither did first century bishop of Hierapolis, Papias, in his major work, Exposition of the Logia of the Lord [in Fragments of Papias, http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/papias.html] that he wrote in 5 books.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Provide the actual document.



Provide the actual document.



Provide the actual document.



Provide the actual document.



Provide the actual document.



Provide the actual document.


The game of telephone doesn't work well for 20 kids in a classroom in 5 mins, and doesn't work for however many people past it on for over a 1000 years.

Haven't you heard of Google? That evidence is for you to search out. I've given the basic information but I'm not going to do the hard yards for you to do another avoidance trick.
 
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OzSpen

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...So... Cite? Look, I'm sorry, but to someone who doesn't already believe, this sort of thing is phenomenally unhelpful.

It's not a red herring. Answer the question. How many eyewitnesses would you need to hear from to believe that someone transformed into a mermaid?

When you refer to deal with the evidence I provide and then throw back at me 'to hear from to believe that someone transformed into a mermaid', you've given another red herring. If you continue with red herring responses, I'll not reply to you any further as a logical discussion is impossible when logical fallacies are used by you.
 
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OzSpen

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If you are going to argue for the "validity and superiority of eyewitness testimony," then it's not an unreasonable question.

Why don't you deal with the nature of the red herring fallacy that is being perpetrated?
 
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nonbeliever314

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Haven't you heard of Google? That evidence is for you to search out. I've given the basic information but I'm not going to do the hard yards for you to do another avoidance trick.

It's not a trick you said you just did you phd dissertation on this stuff. Did you publish anything, can I look it up? You obviously would have had better resources than google (I hope).
 
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SkyWriting

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Could you suggest a better methodology for exploring reality? Religious dogma? yours, of course?

I'm just seeking TRUTH here.
All you've got is storytellers who reluctantly admit they lie.
 
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SkyWriting

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I don't see the movie...

Here is a similar still photo representation of the Holy Spirit and me.

924248-410bf8d6-943d-11e3-8d43-e004d36a6c9a.jpg
 
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Davian

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I'm just seeking TRUTH here.
I'm not, as in these forums it appears to mean "religious opinion". I instead look for accurate descriptions of reality.
All you've got is storytellers who reluctantly admit they lie.
I do not know to whom you refer.

You prefer storytellers that do not admit they lie?
 
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OzSpen

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It's not a trick you said you just did you phd dissertation on this stuff. Did you publish anything, can I look it up? You obviously would have had better resources than google (I hope).

For heaven's sake mate, I sat for my orals last Monday night, 29th June. I'll be awarded my PhD in September at a graduation ceremony. Eventually the PhD will be available online but the Uni attends to that and I'll be advised when it is available.

Of course I had access to the library's online journal resources that are bigger than Google but most of the suggestions I made from early church fathers are available online. Do a Google search to find out. Besides, my specific PhD topic was not dealing with Jesus and the eyewitnesses. That's why I recommended that you consult Richard Bauckham's extensive research on Jesus and the eyewitnesses. He did quite a bit of research on Papias's writings.

However, I'm not doing the hard yards for you on this one, especially when I know that most of the resources I referred to are online and you have access to them with Google, Bing, Yahoo, etc.

Oz
 
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SkyWriting

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@SkyWriting Also I'd like to ask, are you skeptical about anything? And if so, what?

Alien life
Technological solutions
Russians
Fast "Food"
Franchise businesses
Network Marketing
Peanut Butter
Long-life LED's
Monster Cables
Folk Music
Bleeding Heart Liberals
Republicans
Animal Right's Groups
Scientology
Dates for Jesus return
Chia seeds
a few more I guess.
 
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nonbeliever314

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Alien life
Technological solutions
Russians
Fast "Food"
Franchise businesses
Network Marketing
Peanut Butter
Long-life LED's
Monster Cables
Folk Music
Bleeding Heart Liberals
Republicans
Animal Right's Groups
Scientology
Dates for Jesus return
Chia seeds
a few more I guess.

I guess my question is now is, why are you skeptical of things (besides the alien life) that you have actually seen, or can easily investigate since they are evidently real things (beside the resurrection part, IMO), but not skeptical of something supernatural that there is no evidence for? (I hope I worded that right, bad day at work and I'm frustrated and angry).

PS. Monster cables suck, Mogami cable is better.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Your contemporary worldview is clouding your discussion. You stated: 'My assertion is that eyewitness testimony is not a good judge of these things'. It is nothing more than your assertion, which proves nothing. I've provided evidence of the importance of eyewitness testimony in first century culture, but you don't seem to be able to grapple with the evidence from that century. We are NOT discussing eyewitnesses in the American or Australian court system. We are discussing eyewitnesses in first century society - which were extremely important. So important that scholar, Dr Richard Bauckham, has devoted an entire book of 538pp to Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony (Eerdmans 2006). His conclusion was:

'The burden of this book is that the category of testimony is the one that does most justice to the Gospels both as history and as theology. As a form of historiography testimony offers a unique access to historical reality that cannot be had without an element of trust in the credibility of the witness and what he or she has to report. Testimony is irreducible; we cannot, at least in some of its most distinctive and valuable claims, go behind it and make our own autonomous verification of them; we cannot establish the truth of testimony for ourselves as though we stood where the witnesses uniquely stood. Eyewitness testimony offers us insider knowledge from involved participants' (Bauckham 2006:505).​

I don't expect you to be convinced because you have a bias against eyewitness testimony, but the NT does not. Neither did first century bishop of Hierapolis, Papias, in his major work, Exposition of the Logia of the Lord [in Fragments of Papias, http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/papias.html] that he wrote in 5 books.

Oz
Are you suggesting that the fallibility of eyewitness testimony is only a recent phenomenon and that this doesn't pose a problem for any eyewitness testimony delivered prior to the 20th century?
 
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OzSpen

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Are you suggesting that the fallibility of eyewitness testimony is only a recent phenomenon and that this doesn't pose a problem for any eyewitness testimony delivered prior to the 20th century?

See what you do? I provide details that address what you raise and look what happened with this response. You refuse to deal with the material I present but are off and running with another of your angles. It's a red herring fallacy again. Why don't you quit doing this and address the content of what I raise?
 
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paulm50

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Your contemporary worldview is clouding your discussion. You stated: 'My assertion is that eyewitness testimony is not a good judge of these things'. It is nothing more than your assertion, which proves nothing. I've provided evidence of the importance of eyewitness testimony in first century culture, but you don't seem to be able to grapple with the evidence from that century. We are NOT discussing eyewitnesses in the American or Australian court system. We are discussing eyewitnesses in first century society - which were extremely important. So important that scholar, Dr Richard Bauckham, has devoted an entire book of 538pp to Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony (Eerdmans 2006). His conclusion was:
Therefore eyewitness testimonies from people who have seen aliens, are also true. I suggest you watch this program to see the other truth.
Ancient_aliens.png


He has actual physical evidence.

sky-people.jpg


So supporting eyewitness evidence isn't so great. Unless god is an alien. Which is a maybe.
 
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