Best Argument For or Against God's Existence

[Joshua260]

So this is an argument that draws on cosmology and philosophy, and neither discipline finds it convincing. Huh. What the heck is going on here? It's almost as if the argument has obvious and blatant flaws and is really, really unconvincing.

It has been pointed out that many of these scientific atheists were already non-believers before they entered into their profession. This appeal to numbers really has no bearing on the truth of the KCA argument, or on other philosophical arguments.

None of these things "begin to exist" the way you think the universe "began to exist". That is a very clear shift in definition of the meaning of "exist". Each thing here is either a concept (which exists only in the mind and as such is based on an arrangement of matter and energy) or a rearrangement of existing matter and energy, neither of which can reasonably be said to come into existence.

This is just a statement for materialism. Noted...you're a materialist. Thank you.

Yes, actually, they all are. The person thinking about the idea is using his material brain to come up with a different material brain state. The songwriter is a person. A thing. A material. Nothing here has an "immaterial" cause.

Again, a brute proclamation of your materialistic belief. Noted. But I think you have a problem here because if you claim to think with your material brain, then all of your thinking is just based on evolution which cannot guarantee that anything you think is correct. You have no reason to think that you are using correct logic or not...you are only thinking what has been determined by evolution.

Hi, Comp-Sci dropout over here. I saw those coordinates and could immediately tell you the answer, and the class that covered it was one I barely passed over two years ago. The idea that someone who claims to have studied physics and passed with flying colors doesn't know the answer is kind of stunning.

Spoiler: Seriously?

<1,1,0><2,2,0><0,0,1> is not a basis of R^3, because no combination of these vectors can give you <1,0,0> or <0,1,0> or any multiple thereof. Alternatively, you could prove this by pointing out that two of the vectors are linearly dependent and as such are effectively the same vector, and that as a result you're trying to fill 3 dimensions with two vectors, which isn't going to work. That fact alone moves this problem from "really basic" to "incredibly trivial for anyone who knows anything about vectors and mathematics".

Only two years ago? I graduated over 30 years ago. I suspected you must be either young and fresh out of college or you are reading this type of subject matter constantly. As people get older, they come to realize that things that they excelled at when they were younger are not so fresh in their minds as it was back then. So good for you, but I'm trying to stay on topic.

Stop trying to rescue your credentials. This is the internet. The men are men, the women are men, and the 14-year-old girls are FBI agents. The way you demonstrate your credentials on the internet is by demonstrating competence. You just claimed to excel in a subject, after failing to provide an answer to a really simple question in that subject. It's like if someone said they were an expert in RNA transcriptase, and couldn't tell me what "RNA" stands for. I think at this point we should just move on, and you should just accept that nobody believes you when you say you're an authority on physics.

Hold on a minute. I keep getting accused of "touting my credentials" and if you look back through this thread, it was actually nonbeliever314 who pulled rank in education in a response to me. It sounded like he was trying to tell me that I should believe him simply because he was educated in the subject. My response was meant to say something like "so what? I've been educated too...but that's not the topic of the exchange, which is the KCA." My whole response on this subject has been that instead of getting into a ridiculous "I have a higher GPA than you" debate, let's focus on the KCA itself. But instead, I've been suffering personal attacks, implying that I've been disingenuous about my knowledge of the subject.

 

[Davian]

http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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
The Kalam Cosmological Argument
(1) Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence.
(2) The universe has a beginning of its existence.
Therefore:
(3) The universe has a cause of its existence.

I'd rather not go back and watch the WLC debates that I have subjected myself to, but I will add my comments as to how I recall this argument being presented in that context.

(4) If the universe has a cause of its existence then that cause is God.

At this point WLC declares that there is a cause, and we'll call that cause "God", because you need a G/god to start a universe.

Then much hand-waving ensues about alleged evidence for the resurrection, following which WLC declares his (WLC's) "God" possible.

With a very-visible slight-of-hand, "God-the-alleged-cause-of-the-universe" and "God-of-the-Christian-Bible" are equated.

Therefore:
(5) God exists.

Therefore:
(5) (WLC's) God exists.

If that's the basis of KCA. It's mumbo jumbo.

Pretty much.

And still doesn't prove your god exists, all it does is ask the question "What caused the big bang?"

Agreed, but WLC presents it in the form of a false dichotomy: his god, or prove it wasn't (negation).

Let's say it was a god, then what created god, and what created gods creator?

That is dealt with using special pleading.

Which still doesn't answer the question. Do we have the faintest idea what this god wants?

Read your Bible. No, wait - that rarely settles anything.

You need more straw to clutch.
http://data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBxQSEhUUExQWFhUVFhQUGBQVFRcYFRcUFxcXGBcYFxUYHCggGBwlHBQXITEhJSkrLi4uFx8zODMtNygtLisBCgoKDg0OGhAQGzQmICQsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLP/AABEIALEBHAMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAbAAABBQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAAECAwUGB//EAEEQAAECBAMEBwQIBgICAwAAAAECEQADITEEEkEFUWFxEyIygZGhsULB0fAGFFJigpLh8TNTcnOywhVDI9IWg8P/xAAaAQADAQEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAABAgMABAUG/8QALhEAAgIBAwMCBQMFAQAAAAAAAAECEQMSITEEQVEFFBMyYXHwIpHBQoGhsdFS/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwDn5mEgWZhzueND62r5EXS5wVcCPot0eXsYSpXdEEpUkulRB4R0Rw6TFZwY3+MHWGiezNsFKWmEEjXXvg5G3Uc+UZKsG50Lxb/xKRV274lKMBlYdN2pLNSCIEnYhCrH3QNOwaxYgjzis4dfEeAgKMTWy5SHgWbhjoR5RP6uNVF+cT+rDeTDcGAlONfCKvrahBy5Hy8DLlD5aGTQChWPPDwi8bSTlYhjwgZcvgIZxqnwguKNZTiJyTz3wAtMaCkIOpHnFSpA0UG4wypGACmFlgrEJihoJikiE5i3LEkSSYDGKxKJhGTwgz6qU1iMye1Imwg6ZoAgadOeHWIgUwKCikiItFxTDZYVoaykiGaLimI5YWg2VNCaLcsNlgUGyrLDZYuyw2WBpNZVlhZYtywskHSbUVZYWWLskLJB0G1HoSgrnEDNUNB4RrKwm4jwimZhSdY6VJHHRlqxS4b62rV4NVg1CKFyDDfpZtzS2ZMQQDwtq8FTluKgtvaMaSprivOC+mmHslhEJQ3sopEcROQm1+TRmTsVMVYesaw2cpRdwry84JRgym6RzMDVGJqbOaThppqAYkMJO4jvjspaGHZTAWJzCwA5VMBZm+wXBI547JWQ5UfOKF7NWI2JuIVq8DmeTb0h1OQKRlKwSt8VmS1zGquaRp5QOtYVceFIZSYNgESjv84qmSzGqjDA0ZQh/qIBao5iBrQaMWYkNxijLG7MwqRu74DxEsaNDKdmAZYA0iwTGiJEQIgtGsU6a+sDEReUwxTAoNg5TESmCCmIlMLQQcphimCCmGKIFBsHyQ2SCMkNkgUawfJCyQRkhskGjWD5IWSCMkLJG0msHyQ+SCMkPkhtJtQNkh8kE5IWSG0i6j1taJZ4cYrVs8aKEC4mYbe/WKZOKY38Yiscq2ZPWu5fOwrXMZ86UY3ZSs4vEJuAJgLJXI2m+Dmlg7oskYhtWjWm4Aj9oEmYThFdcZC00F4TG0uO5oOTjAbA90YXRKFofpFjQeURliT4HU2bq5zio8RAswp4ekZE3GL3nyiiZjlH9hAWBh+Iay5KdT4GKJqUjQ+IjJOKVFapxh1ifkX4gZOVuKhwYRT0ajZ/D9IpE1tTBMvahA493wguMlwZSXckMOUh1FvWA5+KAcBzxPwhYrGrWamkBlEGMP8A0Zy8EZs4n9ooUHgnoogURTYWwYphssEZYbJGsNgxRDFEElERKIwbBiiGKYJKIbo4AbBcsLJBPRw3RxjWDZIWSCOjhdHGo1g+SFkgno4XRwaNYNkhZIK6OF0cEFg2SHyQSJcSEuGQGwXo4XRwX0cP0cMLZ6AgIOo7xE04JCt0GiRLOgiacInSnfHnyypcWPGALKwmQuIvJOsEJkj94SpMQlkvkqo0BTpQOsZ82WBGvOkxnYjDc/CKY5ryLKICpIimYnjE50ojUxSoHfHUl9SNlK5XHyiAwmax8otJ4xETDvhnfYCaBpuGI/aKCiDZiiYYSd8bVS3N9gPo4jkg7oe6IKlAavA1hoD6OGyiDSd0UqTGswKpMQKILyQxRBswIUQ2SCskNkgWEFyQskFdCWdqBq87ekISSbA+EDUg0wMohZINVh1AOUkCztEUSCSwBJOkbWg0wPJDZI15expxY9GpjYkMDuvE1bDmgsUj8yfR3iT6nEtnJfuh1hyPiL/YxckLJGhMwSkhykgcvloq6OKxmpK0I01yCZIfJBXRwujhrFBskLo4K6OHEuGTFBhLhxLgoS4cS4ZMAKJcP0cFdHD9FDWK2cnKnKHZWof0qI9DB0nbWJRafN71k+sdDNwElYfIkneG90ZmI2FVg4BLB/jHyC6g+geIv2ftzaC+xMJG9Qlt4lNY6TB7RxQ/iLSeUseoNfCMXY+EmSksogpuA1RvqTTzjVGMQCc6kjmr5rEZ9TluosrDDia3Rro2ks3HkRFgxCj7MZB2zhx/2huAUfSKj9J5AtmPJLepia6jqezZR4cHhGrOU/stAk6U+nz3xmzPpWnSWo8y3xij/wCUn+UO9f6R1Yuu6uH1+9fwQn0fTy+hoqlNcRBozz9KDrKH5z/6wh9IkayiORB9wj0sXqd7ZI19tzhyen18krDxKiOSBkbbkm+ZPNPweCEY2UbLT3lvWOyPUwlwzleGceUOpMVFEE03jxEMG3jxh/iJdxNLYNkhiiDOhO6IKSBcgcyB6wPjw8jfCl4Bejhuji8TE6KB5V9I0thYdExbqZSE0OrqNgOMSy9Xjxxcm+B4dPOUkkijZuxjM6y3Sh2CqdYvVIf1jYkYFEsEplpUH7S6n2rPB+JXm07L5AOQqaUaGmPLBI7RYAUIIsQGHDSPl+q9Sy5pbOl4R73T9DDHHdWxigJGbU1ypYBRe1BoCbUiOIlgrd2YOUpLISwGZ2qTUROVNygJLJzHKRlYkGwAA08omiSEkjedQwseHOvGOB5G+WdagkIdaj9UlnNDvYUc2f3xDE4uVLysxUUvmYElt3dpxizGTFiXnFCeqEm4BLq0cUbxMZGB2embMeYaACmmlrOTc7oMX5M4qiU6ZNxH3Ui1DV6s+vd4axn4/FS8MiqhMUyhUkJqO80sK/GLdv7d6EMkUD+oFWFBQ8+6PO8XjlTFlSu0faN33toNKcI6MEHPd8E8j07G0r6UkLK0yJYcMVVd+RLM4ikbcR7coD7yCfQ0Mc/MUSTv56cOEQSktoRup5U9I9DG3j3g6/uc04Rn8ys6+QtKw6C45MRzEWiVHJ4LFGWQoXGnuIN49M2ZtXDTUJVkkJJFQpSUsrUAGsehH1RwjU42/oefk9P3uL2MESocSo7M4CWR/DRXUO3iBA8zZMp7NyUfe8PH1nE+U/z+5KXp2Ts0cqJUS6KOpGAkp9kHmT8YZ0DspQPwv7oD9bxr5Yv/AAZemz7tHMCVF6cCs+z4sPWN2Yp9e4U8ohk4eYiM/XJv5I199/8Ag8fTY/1S/b8Z5hKw5HZLci3vi916rJbep/WOtGFkfyExISJP8hEea+rj4PTXTyOSMw6k+MRzDd6x2Ikyv5MuF9XlH/pl/lge7j4G9vI48EfZhd0dj9VlfyJf5IQwMv8Ako/JA93HwH28jjnMOEEx2P1GX/JR+SJf8fK/kp/IIHu4eA+3kcWUGIlMduNnyv5KPyiJjZ0v+Sj8oge8h4N7aRw4aJrlhJZQY7jeO3GCQLSkeA+EPLw6EkkIQCakhnJ3mFfWrwN7Z+ThxKBsCeQMFYXAz1P0aV9/V/yIeO1Cv6fEQJtDDKmFJTMCGzPR3duPCF95fYK6b6nJjBTlv1FKYkOHIcFj1gWNRGns/BrSz4PMd6lKr3FTRt7Hk9BK6Nyouo5gkgdYk2r6wV050f8AL+sCXVvhfyFdMuR9mrWerMw+QaZcjcsuYv3RtzSEJAomznRixclqWtwjO2fNUVh3atxR253gnEzAt0iuZyUkgUuxrblHNPJZSOOmNhVhR3gAt9pTB1a8h3mJzZBYqW5CSnKB9o0YePrwgafPKBTLQNa5DEkF9XHhE9lMXOcqIzAnMGzHRzU6ijO0R5LNVuPTPmJdhQGmVq9VtSzcoeUt1MAFXI0drONN/cN8WTVFIBQ3WFHs281qwq3GBZ2J/wDG6UkHMEvvF9N5HlARqK5ilTZmRR6rgqIH2VDTdV+7WJ7S2gMOklIBJDhmYJ3kk6vFmzsNlBJUHNSBYpLGpHIDxjkvpntNRLAZRmDUY5U9k/eDihL67otCOqSiLKkmzmsfiVLUc5JJJqBVzx9BALkfpBEurgkDieN6D3RHLWgYaVJoLmseqttjibKX3vwrWIPW3lr74vUCTy4CnwhlpYu50sdeIg2jaWDqFCW4fpG59GRnmBBJZZqE5QQwp2qaRlTEu9mo7fPnEsCvIsfdUD4awst0Gj0/B4foqJlzC/2pktvyhTeUEqxEwUTKDNd0mu5nETkSmAOY1FmoXiakDeRxBIjznlXcf4QBMmTfsF/w/wDsYpVNnfY8m9DGsEjieLsYmUBrHvL+bwVlXgV4zBVNn6II7lGGC8QbJHefjG4nDC7q8QIk3PxhvjrwL8N+TAOUemkJM1IfXjE0TVCpMtT/ADpyhFRuSh+RofSJs6UyKZo3KuBbfE0zB9lXfDGao3Kd9jTfEVKe5f0haHTLRMFWELpCzhJPDu4/NIihAb2raNQwggPVzwza8gIWg2Wy1lqpbz5ecJa6USeYFIaUjcn1PrEmVWm65r6/ejUayJzP2T3n3PDlO8B7tmJ98TAI0FdL35xJKlClg5rSBQbGEtO5Pi8IpAuUAcj6xNSVVqm41GsIK+8OFP0jUCxAJ3jkxiYy/smIj+s93z5xILGqlPpSnDWNpBZJEvn+SHMrgd3ZEVFaR7RqzndvHzvi1ExBsCeR7tBvgaQ6gpM3LLLFnJG4AM+nxjMSApbEuKn+qoA4N81gyZMaWeynrM6usK791KQJhJIQtI0DaXZwxJtvgMeBdikpTlRQFwFUNQGJYjgOETwuZizJrlTrW3frAKsSVqUpj2TSxexo/CCpRJTlBLGzNVVj3U84DY+kuxIzZAMxLEs49rlxo0AdDkPRvajE2IGtS9a+EEzglKqZiQnUkje/Bn7u6M7A/wAQKfrKUS4swS7eJ8oy7m7GnjDkQrKWdLDcEjTiAa98ebbRmmZMUS5cnmzm3zrHZ7fxeWSE2K3vol2OmoHpHErAc94F619ax2dKuZHPn2SRBKSMx4n5Hh5xAJbrGpNuQ4c4mSWIA0/doZRbKNa9+gjrshpJSJFHN3KvHfrE1ocM0WBb8Xrw+fhC1B0sfnSMxQIAVfl8+MQF35e6nmIvmAVoNT6xUoMRx9IKCz1vZ0wdGhk0yhmYCo0pBRJ3V/qPujE2HjFGTKH3QKbre7zEaEorVYbqmlLk8GDeMeXJU2WXAT1nqw5k++FXenzPvig2ckC1Hc940tE0lLVPh6HuhTUTb7w7kxAB/bPcn9YgcTLDup20oeXpaIDHSfl/cYItGKVJGhL7zaJKmp0A/TnFEtCQGIAoWao4OTBCyCMpZ+QFBao+Wi+kyZM4xqBFOArz/W0QTPUNCXbQEB91IiSEjtVJa1qb3t8YfDkEZnFC1DQb3HlA0oNkgtW46231+ESM1YsCX1zJT4kkcPKFiMUjcXvej+HCKxNCrD3GtPnnGpBtsv6xq4YEjtORxpaI5WAVmBfSrjg8QStgACRUUAHmbmJnEAEcPBjfnApBtjykKNSWezDV9X4GHUNM1R77XHx1imbiBanWd/Bx6nxiK8RuN2tx1+eMajbhKQNCSbsSw4OR32iRlghi441vTfz+WigVADuT7mhZgAC4377fvBpA3DEgCzaVIqT+whyohb5kgNXKmr8T+kCuK5RUdz394iAngFxod+6sKjUGqWN/fziSlVDsWDVcm1r8YCw80KBIFKAGmpYefpF5fqhNS7kcPjbxgBaCcVOLpbmDRu7zq0ZUjHBU8JKh2iq5ctucbqte8aOHlrymgISzFVi9wN5oKRye0iUT0rU7hgS/ywc7tTA0ptovi4OlmnMTRgc4qwoKOT4b7xfIDNloU0HGoGY73a24QMuYeoqwLJY6Zgkg0N3B4RXhZ56XKMpZnyl2PEkRGitbBMuY8wkpyJyE71MWfMfnSBsCkZlkCjHmAwYPvNLcHiqZNdSiLKS2YF+AYC1t94jspdSwD9ZwXDkEM1239whu24KpbAP0sWSQAyQEJYUosigJ1Jc8o5ckUFdT4/pHS/SFAMsP2kgrpYuDYvx9I5wsQOALeQFT81juwP8AQjmyr9REs26j9zt8Ig4DW3PqwiSjYWuPH9YH9ni/P53RdEmXyFMT7rCpJtzgtCw3nxtGeJjF7Wp898XCd5U+N4eiL5ITE1py9whmf4c4RUG5t4i0W4OTnmIA3prw198bhAvc7rBYky5UtIp1UizsQS9btQU58ItM2YLl3cbnFN3Iw8lQaulfLTuiKiQXYuBQe8x5LlbO1Q2IzUzFWUyaO9+q9qVu0MmWouSol2Lkiuj79IvSCQHBs1+fhEUMSTYc/Fm4RtRtJScOAXLl3p+vdFktaTo+lz7orEzMHQSzXNLFr/N4sVLTqognd+sD7gZmTF8fhaIdL1XNh68fOKZ8pSiG3sK7nckNSu/dwiS8GoJIBuSSW3tQO7UEdlIjZbNxICXPCu+1t8UnG/ZuXOvc/CsPNwxyhDAWO81PGlHHhD4SUAC9QaN4v4vGWlIzt8FmZhWpOvARFGJOau4ED4/OsMwWoOSC3KgB+IEVycGgqJdZNXoWKWFPugEg90FV3Nv2H+uE1vVuHMtpF68T1erfffRm8olIlJVZIYVAe2goO+CsVMQlIYAXpwJ32uIDa7GSl3AEYRSSVKILuAAb0BPnSJTcKoJQokuKkCyiWYOrj66RbMxDBrkBxezOKekUjaZCwFV7QGjFjobUYwLb7Daa7hOGlFznAfspq9wS+79jBknDg5c1Rc6Alnblv/WBJ2MzS6BVBWhINAACd94rwqZpCerQlyzOQAHauoEK02Hhbh+frKLhLtXuoH5O43qvSISdmhRCgq7ONCohyK2v5mAcNs6YmpWesCSCkgglmIU9dbbuMaSMISNQHBFS5JYEOK/vAb07Jmq9x0TQlgGygl2szFrXhTMclJBpWgHEXHh6xoYfZyVVYKcJau9yzC/ZHlExg8gIUkNViAKENV+QiQ9oy8JMUqjEoBuRoTcDfQRibdkqSutiHFa+IpHXYqefYTndwyaUABYloyJ+FXMzp9hNSAkUYOwUbuzX3QIv9VlYuluBbKxilyFBVShgDQJDmhL2Zj4xBExlpKfaYtuIJevMQOlSpKSAnqTVlOYEWQ5JD3Der6QMcdmFiASXB1ZgRQ1sPKHePl9ikZ70au0AZJFRdiQluqSFVq78aRRIn5ZhBAdzagdwD6xMYgTEKmOSQkJuMoFxwubQCZhzFbFgQb1DAD8VhaAlfIU6LdsJV0SCHYJNA7dvrMTpWzRzKFO43AU30eOtxEjpAoP1WzJB3Eur54Rys1bKJZ6kE0qWe4jp6d3GiGZU7IzJl20BLcQPe0DTTV+b8HakErZtKg+Ll38oBnTBSlq0jqgjlmyapjNc6kXPKkSQSb6/LRQZnj8vCzsfnyiqRzyZfMXYcN8aGxcUlCypYcVArqQa8aOIxUKrXePkeAhp07MwB0PrSBLHqVCqdOz0nAYxK3ynR7i9AzcHAg4TXU7AOL8vV6x5rgccuUoEaaGxsT6R0uF2/KZ5uZFg6EggnQ9oNHBl6SS4OqHUxfJ0hLhzZNQxuavzsIBxU7MMssFQ1KRob97GMdX0rRLUR1loZWVQTqxoQTTrN5xp7O+lCJpJSkOHUXABCAG7O4CtIm8Eoq2iizJukw5GGUpkpUkbnNtzt3xerZSTVc0BWoBZvExko2oEEqCqLZT2oDQ2oNO6H/5KUrtO/BRHG3fE9MvAzq+RYiTNZJyKcqKUoZlO/wBnwiKhMSxXLWKDtJUAKHhWsaeI+kSUsuYrrhg7FiLs4NGf5pGcj6SdMciVLSCpQDlxls6sxJAYi4eOrT5RzJvhFGdWdOYKJORy2qgCHpuanKBBtFUyiZajUb2qq7NbjG8mb0rplrOe2UC5pQG1ifCKcBiZWdiau4BYZhyA50fuhdS8FEmBbOwyzmVQuRSoKQOdS5alLQfgdkzbLCkuXBoSpJ0bL1bG8G4AjpASphXq/aKiGodzA374bbuIIsSR9xjRmAA1LtC622ZxoHnbEKexMAJUolg7gvlBVexFBxilWDZLKcI4va9Tu79/GMraWEWUkpmKCmJzdYBSS7JJemmmusbeyMRPlIacErbKGJd2FCFVDMoU1aGa2tsyfZEMTg9U3rd7gijEVuD3QVs7Y+ZQcoC3elRZnc1MW/XkqQKAO7JLFuPCIK2t7CVIcWoQSz0BYuHHZ4cInzsM2wudgpKQATnYuS4Fa0YkPcxWXChkKGAFC7AVq7wXNxilJGcgkgdcpoTbskMDzI+OfMmZXASntdol7mw0annAArZZLZSa0ObtJHVI3HTUcovXiZadFM40BDENQixrrABnIYKUspUMzJZ0JYvmYVJIOtu+K5ySsKKakmwBDamhrpGoNnQ/VgkBEpeVilZe2XcNxq7GKk5juLPUk14ZRRvjGfhJhSA6klyxDGugdRFS/fUxGftVwEywVUenWAvfTtRNp9h4h8zFKAK+q5onTrVANOQ84FMxRDvfQaF3Dka8Bo8ZyZM0kOSbKykdVi9XfhBspPQyio9pRvZtwv8Ae36QjjXJVNcIjtDBFZyJapYbg46zgtVnHfAa/o/LPUCD1QRm1KizqJ138mjXwc55eY0d2GoLh3PElopnYtQJShJOZiMoJISSGckMDQfJgqclsjbPk5/D7DmSgQ7sxu4DqOYBvu07vDOm4WaECbkU3XKkm4AJag1KatHYY2eQySQVMoku5aj33kvAysxSoqUBnLuFUGg41e0UWZt20GKpbM5vZuPICCCkpSpNDewoTuZXdWM3a0kIJYdVR6QOCDWqXG4gjxjosXsRK5aZKCz9bOAQHGZzmNvZHAiBF/ReexQopIOVqkkKSkJ7Rqp2fu4xeEoLexJNvZo46dUkCrM3HUQIuYXLgg2MbmM2DNSrKtEyrDsliQDZgXobcIrOyVBzuoQRbcDmaO+M41yedk1N0YqQrcf0ghMt9w8X8YJUkoOVQuHTu1uQaaXgebh1l1By1wKtUV91dYopWScRzLbXRmp82aIy0JzAcfSNHB/R+dMyukioBNWAISSS9iApNOdo3dnfR5CFf+WpSokgPYHquBr1T+aJTzxguR4YJTexy/Rk2di6fDdvuIkiQsJdTEcbs/lHTrwAUrLLFs+oYKdZbxUDyIiey9lBRPSA2CksalOVyCNL67jwiT6ilZVdPucomWlLObaPz8olh8OVFwRWx3co7rGYdCZc0ZUjpMxDCpKpaUiulie6OO2f1SgKIOZYlg1sVAP5jxjQy64to08WlpDzMMU0zUDb2qxY+fhGhIwkxYdIJDkPmAtzjotm/R0KRMWpyCZbpIBFJmQAE2Nu4xrYjAS0qU6AokqVRQAAJOUCo9nKTxJiE89DKCMHa+AnYgt0aWBSSsKAzEkO9mZ7UeCRsKWhHsuRVlHMq+alhetdNYebtoLJyhZPVsA4L17gGPdvpEJM5E6WpSycjVSsl2USWDXFw2oMaWrvwCDXYScTLlLCkKLoyrBahUFAAD1gtSpcury8xYkJSAouk3pStxx4RUrHoUQAlVKpKQEh+RLNaHxEzpQAoEk6AdZQuWIu1Ki1Ik2VSfLJYcIqozPZLO4roWBqA1if0GTPmID9IlYclKt7F0unQkZX5M8TRhZSkM60qFK6tuFHobvv1igYdIzM4ZmBTqbkvc1gOqGW7LJk5VBmtwB3PQvf3RETj0fWCbEkijFmINgK+sU4qcVMlILggM1TRzQX/SJYcKAImChPffj3QFwVpFcjD5lKZSxmZ2IplZr6MPCD8OkSmIAStAIFSepWu8KAI19mvETDSADYWDgHcwUdNRTuicmUDclVaV9lmPPs8YZzoTQmbeExwUgomKMwEu5owYi/E8KPxgObhULuVEjK3XpT3swrTzjIVNSOqGFirrPuDuTvDRP60S4zhmVcNuZmoGYh9YytmeNI2ZExIWyJSlAM6nbMAbKHBxQfsVkU4MoO4YuAOqRa1GOkZ2zs6SDn6QkOwACcooavVoJxmIUeyCk9bqpSp1ABJd4V2LSCJeDzAGa6gkl9KNYOLcQ9mhTJaEv1VAOCwBBI5V0bm/GKpSphQAOqAkrLAsLBgzM4T5xQictLFT1NiXbQE8fUaQG/I0YXuEZ5qxmFCogBJJYByQTup6RKfIC0y0LY3KshcBVbAsSQARBcvBEKzZ3dmBUxoQcoSRavpWCEbO6JbhBQogl2Uzu4NaCvpujNJbgt8GQoFKcqXAABD/DmNILw20CsB+oOYIUmwNrlqu14nMzdbOolJOYsD1SL2BvZqOCeEB4OZlCiwv7IHYJYsSbilN1dImqZR/6LpeyJawc6+sS7kvrZIs/7RL6vLkt7IFSSVVPLTSgicrFkWcFgAVMlNdSSS7jhrpGYtlOFGjVCgCCVJLb29rwIpAu9gpXuPidvpdiqhSRajOwbg5gqftkdEcoDlJqE760rx5Rkydly1pKWLKUHcAoJNgdU0TaNASkJAyOwdOUgqLCprc7/AAjNQ7DK74MyXisUlJCCySBlKm3vVLv+kFsaCYElJY9UEA2oXTviGGwq89CWSpLuLix+fjB6hXOutEiruK6d511EaUl2C1vuBz8LKKk50ZgSgAOGAUSN2jDx74hI2ZJVLLS6KU5pTqmx8R8iD5ZC12bK99ctq3F28YrQ7s1CSu1gCG8YOuSXJNxi3wXycIkKyhVHcgbwwJ5MBGZj0HMMo6ylJ5kJLOd5OYUvaDUyS6VZakkXvmISHO/dB+CkpCukFEnLe59lLPqaF9YZOt2K3XBlzMKUAAIAZbljalSTd2BgOVLS4ADMAnM5Jyijj50MdYvZC1AMCA+dswClOGqe4tziqV9Gky5iFfZcE5hQqIC24ZXHfxh4wk1umI8sVwY076OECZMWtgyhk9pyhnHep2arcYAwn0RksSoqCrAE9jMNGNFVQHNnjW2xh8ZPJMqWMqVN/EQk0IIUokVSetxDWrXP2f8ARfHLAKlpRVJLKdk9dk0oVOUudH1tFYQyJXwTnOD5ds1dq7QEqVkDEsCcgdJJL1FNVivLdWGDzKloWtIK1pClAkUO624A98bGDwhQggJqTR1JUCxLsH1YecWYfCzSM1Rmq3V3DdEncVx/gMWrPO9m9kf31ek2Kvalf3Zf+JhQo65ckYdg+f8A7/8A7Kjrdj9j8PuhQo538354Hl8gPj+ymOWxl/xe8woULLkpg4Ypf8UfOkX7SvChQsuxeHJV/wBR/rP+UXm4+fYMKFBYDmZll8le+H2Z/sj1hoUda4EfH59TrMF2x/V7jHQYfso/+3/IwoUc8hcvz/ngEka85cD7Tsv+4r0RDQo55djqXzG7hezL/tr/ANYq2h/DVzmf4IhQoD5Irky8DbuMZmCsrn/rChQIclpcM0JvZT3ekAe0fwei4UKD/Ugw+Rlkm6+SPUwcP4o/H6phQo3cWXBHC/xJv4fUxcq5/DChQq5QZcMtwv8A2f3P9lRXtHtp/tj/ADVChQ3dkolgsOZ/yVD4f+DL/ok/4yIUKD5FfKOxk9n8KPSBsFf8Z90KFHrRPNlwaC9eR9IqlW/EfWFCgyFiDHTn7xFqbnn7hChQBj//2Q== http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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

Indeed.

 

[Joshua260]

It wasn't meant to prove KCA wrong. The KCA basically just says the universe had a beginning. I was just throwing ideas around. You have a space (of which may or may not have had a beginning, I wasn't specific at all), that was encapsulated in another space, and so on. That's all it was. Basically, the idea in my head (of which I probably can't express mathematically), is you have a universe, say it had a beginning, but that universe is contained in another higher dimensional space, a kind of "infinite onion" of spaces encapsulating the lower dimensional ones. The only thing that had going against KCA, and indirectly at best, was the use of infinity.

Just a minor note...p2 says that the universe had a beginning while the argument (at least my version) concludes that the universe has a cause for it's existence.
Ok. Thanks for clearing that up. I understand your desire to impose dimensions outside of the known universe...I really do. Wouldn't it have been so much easier if scientists hadn't suggested a boundary to the universe??

I'd like to go back to the incoherency that something could bring itself into existence...it would have to exist in order to do that. It seems to me that if we call everything in this natural universe material, and nothing in the universe brought itself into existence, then the cause would have to be something different than what we call "material".

 

[Joshua260]

What do you mean, "possibly"? What is your criteria for selecting a philosopher?

Not all of them can be correct. For example, Nietzsche and Craig can't both be correct about the existence of God. I don't necessarily restrict myself to one or the other, but rather tend to focus on their arguments.

Joshua said: "Thanks for agreeing with me in that it would be philosophers who we would consult in order to consider the nature of reality."

Davian: Where did I do that?

That seemed to be your implication when you responded "Which ones..." in post #1215.

For myself, it would be philosophers working with scientists that I would consult with in my exploration of reality.

Well, I'm not sure we should rule out philosophers who work with the results of scientists as well...they may not always live contemporarily. Should we ignore their work just because they did not work directly with scientists? Anyway FYI, Craig consults with scientists also.

 

[bhsmte]

Not all of them can be correct. For example, Nietzsche and Craig can't both be correct about the existence of God. I don't necessarily restrict myself to one or the other, but rather tend to focus on their arguments.


That seemed to be your implication when you responded "Which ones..." in post #1215.

Well, I'm not sure we should rule out philosophers who work with the results of scientists as well...they may not always live contemporarily. Should we ignore their work just because they did not work directly with scientists? Anyway FYI, Craig consults with scientists also.

Do you have any read on the percentage of cosmologists who agree with Craig's arguments?

 

[Joshua260]

Do you have any read on the percentage of cosmologists who agree with Craig's arguments?

Cosmology and philosophy are two different disciplines, but many cosmologists agree with p1 and p2 of the KCA. And p3, that the universe has a cause for it's existence, logically follows from p1 and p2.

 

[bhsmte]

Cosmology and philosophy are two different disciplines, but many cosmologists agree with p1 and p2 of the KCA. And p3, that the universe has a cause for it's existence, logically follows from p1 and p2.

I know they are different disciplines, but you said Willy consults with scientists.

So, can you name these cosmologists, that agree with Craig's argument and most importantly and all that really matters, his conclusion?

 

[The Cadet]

Cosmology and philosophy are two different disciplines, but many cosmologists agree with p1 and p2 of the KCA. And p3, that the universe has a cause for it's existence, logically follows from p1 and p2.

And yet, the vast, vast majority of them are atheists.

Huh.

What the hell?!

 

[Davian]

...
p4 has never been part of my argument.

I have always stated the KCA thusly:
(1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause for it's existence.
(2) The universe began to exist.
(3) Therefore, the universe has a cause for it's existence.

But once we come to the conclusion that the universe has a cause for it's existence, we can extrapolate out various characteristic traits of that cause. We can surmise that the cause would have been eternal, timeless, space-less, immaterial, omnipotent, omniscient, uncaused, an even personal. With all of this in mind, we can rule out many suggestions for the cause such as Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, the flying spaghetti monster, the eternal flame, and fire-breathing dragons. But what's left includes candidates such as the Muslim, Jewish, or Christian god,

How does a timeless, immaterial anything walk and talk in a [hypothetical] Garden of Eden?

and even (admittedly) an evil god. All of this has been discussed earlier on this thread.

Contrary to popular atheistic propaganda, this is not a god of the gaps argument.

"The "god of the gaps" is a bit of theological reasoning which invokes divine intervention as a way to understand natural phenomena that science is presently unable to explain;" rationalwiki

How is that not accurate, as you have presented it here?

 

[bhsmte]

And yet, the vast, vast majority of them are atheists.

Huh.

What the hell?!

I find this whole thing hilarious.

You have Willy Craig supposedly knowing more about the conclusions of cosmology then cosmologists and then you have a YEC believer, who uses Willy's argument for cosmology and Willy strongly disagrees with a young earth.

You can't make this stuff up folks.

 

[Davian]

Not all of them can be correct. For example, Nietzsche and Craig can't both be correct about the existence of God. I don't necessarily restrict myself to one or the other, but rather tend to focus on their arguments.

Do you allow for Craig to be wrong? Or is he infallible, particularly about the existence of "God"?

That seemed to be your implication when you responded "Which ones..." in post #1215.

You were mistaken.

Well, I'm not sure we should rule out philosophers who work with the results of scientists as well...they may not always live contemporarily. Should we ignore their work just because they did not work directly with scientists?

I would ignore their work if it were in conflict with or it was not supported by science.

Anyway FYI, Craig consults with scientists also.

He does. It would seem that what follows is tailored to sell books, not make scientific breakthroughs.

 

[The Cadet]

It has been pointed out that many of these scientific atheists were already non-believers before they entered into their profession. This appeal to numbers really has no bearing on the truth of the KCA argument, or on other philosophical arguments

Of course. Because, yanno, atheists who profess their disbelief due entirely to lack of a good reason to believe in god are absolutely the most dogmatic and unreasonable people on the planet. Yeah, no offense, but no. This is not a reasonable argument. You're essentially claiming that experts in the fields of philosophy and cosmology would disregard an argument because of their dogmatic beliefs... When their main bias is not holding any dogmatic beliefs!

This is just a statement for materialism. Noted...you're a materialist. Thank you.

...What the **** are you on about here?

Again, a brute proclamation of your materialistic belief. Noted. But I think you have a problem here because if you claim to think with your material brain, then all of your thinking is just based on evolution which cannot guarantee that anything you think is correct. You have no reason to think that you are using correct logic or not...you are only thinking what has been determined by evolution.

...Are you serious? This is quite possibly the dumbest non-sequitur I have ever seen. Dude, you just went full Sye Ten. Never go full Sye Ten. For the record, I am not a materialist, or a naturalist.

 

[Joshua260]

I know they are different disciplines, but you said Willy consults with scientists.

Yes, he consults scientists on scientific matters.

So, can you name these cosmologists, that agree with Craig's argument and most importantly and all that really matters, his conclusion?

I did not comment on whether or not cosmologists agree with Craig's philosophical argument. I said that many cosmologists (even atheists ones) agree with p1 and p2. The KCA itself is a philosophical argument. Why do we need a cosmologist to comment on a philosophical argument? The experts in philosophical arguments are philosophers.

 

[Joshua260]

And yet, the vast, vast majority of them are atheists.

Huh.

What the hell?!

The premises are built on logic and scientific evidences. The argument itself is a philosophical one and the experts in philosophy are philosophers.

 

[Joshua260]

I find this whole thing hilarious.

You have Willy Craig supposedly knowing more about the conclusions of cosmology then cosmologists and then you have a YEC believer, who uses Willy's argument for cosmology and Willy strongly disagrees with a young earth.

You can't make this stuff up folks.

1. Many (I suspect most) cosmologists agree with p1 and p2.
2. The experts in philosophical arguments are philosophers.
2. My category designation is irrelevant to the discussion. Please stay on topic and cease from the ad hominem attacks.

 

[Joshua260]

How does a timeless, immaterial anything walk and talk in a [hypothetical] Garden of Eden?

"The "god of the gaps" is a bit of theological reasoning which invokes divine intervention as a way to understand natural phenomena that science is presently unable to explain;" rationalwiki

How is that not accurate, as you have presented it here?

First, this is not a god of the gaps answer here.

As has already been explained to you earlier, God is immaterial who sometimes has manifested himself in this world. This answer originates from the bible (since you asked about God specifically) and this trait (being immaterial) of the cause of the universe (whether it is God or not) can be extrapolated from considering the implications of the KCA conclusion.

BTW, I didn't see you ask about "timeless" before. I believe that there is a state of affairs in which God exists without time, and then he began to exist temporally when time began. This answer also originates from the bible (since you asked about God specifically) and this trait (existing timelessly and then temporally) of the cause of the universe (whether it is God or not) can be extrapolated from considering the implications of the KCA conclusion.

 

[Davian]

...
Again, a brute proclamation of your materialistic belief. Noted. But I think you have a problem here because if you claim to think with your material brain, then all of your thinking is just based on evolution which cannot guarantee that anything you think is correct. You have no reason to think that you are using correct logic or not...you are only thinking what has been determined by evolution.
...

Strawman

• Davian
• Jun 1, 2014

 

[Davian]

...
I'd like to go back to the incoherency that something could bring itself into existence...it would have to exist in order to do that.

Are all concepts in science subject to what you consider coherent?

It seems to me that if we call everything in this natural universe material, and nothing in the universe brought itself into existence, then the cause would have to be something different than what we call "material".

What is it made of?

 

[Joshua260]

Do you allow for Craig to be wrong? Or is he infallible, particularly about the existence of "God"?

Yes I do. Believe or not, I wasn't too much of a fan of the KCA for quite a while. I much preferred the Leibniz version before, but the more I studied the KCA, the more I found it to be quite formidable.

I would ignore their work if it were in conflict with or it was not supported by science.

Ok. Well, science supports p1 and p2. Science has nothing to say about the conclusion:
"Therefore, the universe has a cause for it's existence."
because it is a philosophical statement.

He does. It would seem that what follows is tailored to sell books, not make scientific breakthroughs.

Craig is not in the business of making scientific breakthroughs. He is a philosopher.

 

[Joshua260]

Are all concepts in science subject to what you consider coherent?

Well I'll ask you then. Is it coherent that something that doesn't exist could bring itself into existence?

What is it made of?

I'm not sure it would be proper for me to speculate on that. However, I think it would be illogical (because of the incoherency of something that doesn't exist to bring about it's own existence) to suggest that whatever the cause was, if it was "made" of anything, would be made of the stuff found in this universe.