Best Argument For or Against God's Existence

[bhsmte]

Hmmm, I seem to recall a past poster who tended to plagiarize WLC. Someone who's posts seem remarkably like a current poster...

Yep, I think you may be on to something.

 

[bhsmte]

If you had a 4.0 GPA and took those classes, this is something that should easily ring a bell. Especially in physics. We're essentially having a debate about how the universe started or didn't start. You claim a specific god did it, cite scientific papers, and claim to know physics. But when I ask you a very simple question regarding something you claim you are good at, you can't even remember what a vector was (or represented as you put it)? Come on.

I think most have figured out what is going on here.

 

[KCfromNC]

Because that is not the nature of philosophical arguments.

That's false. Do you need examples?

Do you see the word "chance" or "probably" in there anywhere?

A lack of those words in one particular argument proves exactly zero about them being universally absent from all of philosophy.

 

[Eudaimonist]

You are a priori ruling out an immaterial cause for the beginning of the universe.

I'd think that it is more important to know why one should rule in the possibility of an immaterial cause for the beginning of the universe.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[KCfromNC]

Wow. Are you serious? They are exactly the people we would consult about the nature of reality!!!

Yes, I'm serious. Perhaps instead of acting all surprised you could just point out all the useful additions to our understanding of reality that philosophizers have provided.

 

[KCfromNC]

...like scientific readings of the red-shift and the background radiation...

Nope, you were questioning the validity of QM since it was only a theory or whatever. Are you also saying you reject the scientific consensus on redshift and the CMB?

 

[KCfromNC]

It's amazing that some people think that they can satisfactorily answer one of the most fundamental questions in cosmology, all without so much as touching a physics textbook.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

 

[KCfromNC]

Since logic and science seems to support that time had a beginning, then that would mean that God existed

What does the existence of a beginning of time have to do with the Christian god? I don't see any connection.

 

[KCfromNC]

Most of the time I do not copy and paste.

Oh interesting. Now probabilities matter. I thought they had no place it philosophical discussions.

If only you applied the "maybes" from your experts to the KCA rather than pretending you can ignore them.

 

[paulm50]

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

Have you been reading this thread where I show that many of those scientific books support the KCA's premises?

The Kalam Cosmological Argument
(1) Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence.
(2) The universe has a beginning of its existence.
Therefore:
(3) The universe has a cause of its existence.
(4) If the universe has a cause of its existence then that cause is God.
Therefore:
(5) God exists.

If that's the basis of KCA. It's mumbo jumbo.

And still doesn't prove your god exists, all it does is ask the question "What caused the big bang?"

Let's say it was a god, then what created god, and what created gods creator?

Which still doesn't answer the question. Do we have the faintest idea what this god wants?

You need more straw to clutch.
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

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I'd think that it is more important to know why one should rule in the possibility of an immaterial cause for the beginning of the universe.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Or why one would a priori rule out the possibility of any natural explanation.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

 

[The Cadet]

I linked that earlier in the thread; I don't think anyone actually watched it. Martymer81 is awesome. Follow-up:

 

[bhsmte]

I linked that earlier in the thread; I don't think anyone actually watched it. Martymer81 is awesome. Follow-up:

I am quite certain, some will not watch it. Far too much pain involved with that.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I linked that earlier in the thread; I don't think anyone actually watched it. Martymer81 is awesome. Follow-up:

I've been a subscriber to Martymer's channel for a while now. He produces very good content.

 

[The Cadet]

I've been a subscriber to Martymer's channel for a while now. He produces very good content.

"Let's watch Jordan take the 30-second stupid test."

 

[paulm50]

This is all speculation. Until we discover for certain what caused the big bang, these guys are make giant assumptions.

Because.

(1) Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence.
(2) The universe has a beginning of its existence.

How do they know the Universe was the beginning? It could be part of an ongoing process. Until we discover this, they're wasting their time, and mine.

As for this.

(3) The bible has a cause of its existence.
(4) If the bible has a cause of its existence then that cause is God.
Therefore:
(5) God exists.

Which is more nonsense. Like the bible was written by god. Why do you say that? The men who wrote told me.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

"Let's watch Jordan take the 30-second stupid test."

I do admire his patience in creating these videos, especially his response videos to Jordan. If I were in his position, I would simply dismiss Jordan's channel outright. But Martymer patiently goes through Jordan's reasoning and takes it apart to show why his conclusions are unfounded. As a bonus, he does so entertainingly.

 

[Davian]

Possibly.

What do you mean, "possibly"? What is your criteria for selecting a philosopher?

Thanks for agreeing with me

Where did I do that?

in that it would be philosophers who we would consult in order to consider the nature of reality.

For myself, it would be philosophers working with scientists that I would consult with in my exploration of reality.

Who did you have in mind?

 

[Joshua260]

Joshua260 said: ↑
Have you been reading this thread where I show that many of those scientific books support the KCA's premises?

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
The Kalam Cosmological Argument
(1) Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence.
(2) The universe has a beginning of its existence.
Therefore:
(3) The universe has a cause of its existence.
(4) If the universe has a cause of its existence then that cause is God.

p4 has never been part of my argument.

I have always stated the KCA thusly:
(1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause for it's existence.
(2) The universe began to exist.
(3) Therefore, the universe has a cause for it's existence.

But once we come to the conclusion that the universe has a cause for it's existence, we can extrapolate out various characteristic traits of that cause. We can surmise that the cause would have been eternal, timeless, space-less, immaterial, omnipotent, omniscient, uncaused, an even personal. With all of this in mind, we can rule out many suggestions for the cause such as Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, the flying spaghetti monster, the eternal flame, and fire-breathing dragons. But what's left includes candidates such as the Muslim, Jewish, or Christian god, and even (admittedly) an evil god. All of this has been discussed earlier on this thread.

Contrary to popular atheistic propaganda, this is not a god of the gaps argument.