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Believing VS. Understanding

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AV1611VET

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consideringlily said:
If Genesis is not meant to be taken literally then there is definitely a problem.
I find it very difficult to believe that Genesis was an allegory. Why would God, Who says to let all things be done decently and in order (1 Corinthians 14:40) start off His word with an allegory?
  • Job interpreted Genesis literally - (Job 31:33)
    God, through Isaiah, interpreted Genesis literally - (Isaiah 54:9)
    God, through Ezekiel interpreted Genesis literally - (Ezekiel 14:14) - speaking of Noah in context with Daniel and Job - and even speaks of Noah's soul
    1 Chronicles gives both Adam's and Noah's genealogy - as does Luke
    Jesus spoke of Adam and Eve in context with the Creation - (Matthew 19:4; Mark 10:6)
    Stephen went to his death interpreting Genesis literally - (Acts 7)
    Paul spoke of a literal Adam several times - as well as a literal Noah - (Hebrews 11:7)
    Jude speaks of a specific prophecy of Enoch - (Jude 14-15)
I'd rather be accounted with these men, than with those who follow Philo of Alexandria, who invented the allegorical method of interpretation.

The Flood story is unmistakenly similar to the one in Gilgamesh, named after a Sumerian king.

See? Even Gilgamesh interpreted Genesis literally.

No it's called oral tradition. The story of Gilgamesh was circulated orally before the Hebrew flood story. I don't think you are saying that the Hebrew story is plagiarism?
How could it? It's full of allegory and fable and, I'm sure, wasn't meant to be taken literally. The Hebrew story, by contrast, is chock full of real names, places, and events.

Jesus used references his audience understood.
He sure did.

You know this isn't true right? Even if you go by Genesis. Abel was a farmer. How could that be if it never rained? If it rained, there were surely rainbows. The moisture created by rain refracts light into a spectrum.
It didn't rain and, yes, Abel could farm - (Genesis 2:5-6).

You misunderstood. It can be inferred from the Bible that she didn't know the difference between Good and Evil before she ate the apple.
I agree --- she did not know the difference between good and evil before she ate the forbidden fruit.

TEs worship God not a book.
That's cute.

You don't have to sale this to me. Neither your carrot(heaven) or stick (fear of Hell)will convince me that Genesis is a literal event.
No --- but God's may.

You be the first to refuse any breakthrough to reduce suffering.
Please don't lay that "Where's God when we suffer?" on us. We have a standing joke ---
  • Joe: God, are You real?
    God: Yes, why do you ask?
    Joe: Then why do you let AIDS and CANCER flourish?
    God: I tried to stop it, but you wouldn't let me.
    Joe: How so?
    God: I sent you a doctor who had the cure.
    Joe: Where is he?
    God: He was aborted.
 
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shernren

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Other than backward's reasoning, what reason is there to believe that the advantage of a big baby brain outweighs the risk of the related childbirth? All non-human animals do just fine with relatively small brains. But, childbirth is a significant problem. And, you still haven't explained why Evolution hasn't found a solution for the high-risk birth process, given all the time it has had. Why not tall heads instead of fat heads? Birth canals that open much wider? Shift more brain growth to after birth?

Are you seriously saying that humanity's huge brain hasn't given humanity a significant advantage?

Tall heads would be more unstable for the human neck to support, and they would have to be a lot taller in order to provide the necessary brain volume. Also, there would be the matter of how a tall head fits into a mother's womb.

A birth canal can only open so wide. It is precisely because of bipedalism that the pelvic girdle has to support most of the body's weight and hence be very strong. Lengthen the cartilage in the female pelvic girdle or loosen it, and at some point there won't be enough strength left in it. I think it is also a problem in terms of how far the soft tissue of the vagina can dilate.

As I've said, the fact that a human baby has a relatively (biologically) mature brain at birth maximizes the time it has to receive and process sensory input and learn from it.

But more importantly, why do you expect evolution to have to find a solution to this problem? Is something wrong with evolution if it leaves problems without solutions? Define evolution, anyways.

Is this your way of claiming that without Evolution, we wouldn't know that some diseases are genetically caused??? I didn't find the part that made the case that Evolution was actually helpful to medical science (and, the article doesn't even address childbirth)

Did you read through the whole article? Yes, it doesn't address childbirth, but it raises a whole lot of other contributions. Basically, without evolutionism, population genetics wouldn't exist. All creationists really have to say about population genetics is that "animals reproduce within their kinds". Otherwise, we would start seeing creationists produce genetic data confirming that there was only one (or seven) pair(s) alive in each genus 4,000+ years ago, and that all members in those genera alive today genetically originate from those ancestral pairs.

A creationist, Mendel, discovered those genes, in the fist place. Evolutionists originally resisted the idea of genes because it explained variation in a way that wasn't conducive to Evolution.

Wouldn't Mendel have still experimented with peas and discovered genes if he hadn't actually believed that the earth was 6,000 years old? And do you have proof that evolutionists resisted the idea of genes, or are you confusing this with the popular idea that Mendel's work went unnoticed until the early 1900's?

But, Pasteur knew life wasn't just popping up in organic soups here and there, so he set out to prove it. If he were an Evolutionist, he probably would have spent his time trying to cause life to pop up from non-life.

But the abiogenesis Pasteur disproved involved the spontaneous generation of complete, cladistically continuous (with extant species), and macroscopic lifeforms. Crucially, it also would have disproved, not proved, the notion of common descent. The abiogenesis present in many modern biological theories of origins is completely different.

Besides, what "Biblical basis" would Pasteur have for believing that germs exist? After all, they cannot be classified into birds of the air, fish of the sea, crawling animals, or living beasts, therefore God did not create them within any of the six days of creation, therefore they were not created and they do not exist.
 
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Lilandra

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pastorkevin73 is this the show you were talking about?

http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/show_homosapiens.html

Inquiring minds want to know.

pastorkevin73 said:
Last night on CBC (canada) there was a story on some artifacts that was found on a mountian floodplain in Montana. Apparently there was sediment also found there. This seems to support a world wide flood.

Interesting, evidence at the doorstep.
 
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random_guy

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AV1611VET said:
....joke...

There's also this version...
Joe: God, are You real?
God: Yes, why do you ask?
Joe: Then why do you let AIDS and CANCER flourish?
God: I tried to stop it, but you wouldn't let me.
Joe: How so?
God: I sent you a doctor who had the cure.
Joe: Where is he?
God: Your schools taught YECism instead of science and so he became Kent Hovind.
 
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Lilandra

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AV1611VET said:
I find it very difficult to believe that Genesis was an allegory. Why would God, Who says to let all things be done decently and in order (1 Corinthians 14:40) start off His word with an allegory?
Jesus often spoke in parable, so I guess I am not understanding your question.
Job interpreted Genesis literally - (Job 31:33)
God, through Isaiah, interpreted Genesis literally - (Isaiah 54:9)
God, through Ezekiel interpreted Genesis literally - (Ezekiel 14:14) - speaking of Noah in context with Daniel and Job - and even speaks of Noah's soul
1 Chronicles gives both Adam's and Noah's genealogy - as does Luke
Jesus spoke of Adam and Eve in context with the Creation - (Matthew 19:4; Mark 10:6)
Stephen went to his death interpreting Genesis literally - (Acts 7)
Paul spoke of a literal Adam several times - as well as a literal Noah - (Hebrews 11:7)
Jude speaks of a specific prophecy of Enoch - (Jude 14-15)

Myths are often based in real events. The city of Troy for example. The Flood is probably based on an actual Mesopotamian localized catastrophic flood. However, some figurative elements have been added like the rainbow explanation.
I'd rather be accounted with these men, than with those who follow Philo of Alexandria, who invented the allegorical method of interpretation.
You still haven't made a case that the Flood is word for word literal.

See? Even Gilgamesh interpreted Genesis literally.
Gilgamesh is an obvious fictionalized account of a real Sumerian king.

How could it? It's full of allegory and fable and, I'm sure, wasn't meant to be taken literally. The Hebrew story, by contrast, is chock full of real names, places, and events.
On the contrary, the names of the human characters were real people.

It didn't rain and, yes, Abel could farm - (Genesis 2:5-6).

It did rain that is the reality of a planet with a water cycle.

Please don't lay that "Where's God when we suffer?" on us. We have a standing joke ---
  • Joe: God, are You real?
    God: Yes, why do you ask?
    Joe: Then why do you let AIDS and CANCER flourish?
    God: I tried to stop it, but you wouldn't let me.
    Joe: How so?
    God: I sent you a doctor who had the cure.
    Joe: Where is he?
    God: He was aborted.
You are changing the subject. At the same time you are doing a disservice to scientists who are researching methods to reduce suffering.
 
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gluadys

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Poke said:
But, childbirth is a significant problem. And, you still haven't explained why Evolution hasn't found a solution for the high-risk birth process, given all the time it has had. Why not tall heads instead of fat heads? Birth canals that open much wider? Shift more brain growth to after birth?

Actually, shifting more brain growth to after birth is exactly what has happened. Human infants, as compared to other primates, are born in a relatively immature state. They have to be in order for the relatively large head to get through the birth canal. But they don't talk or walk or even learn as quickly as other primates for the first 2-3 years of life. After that, they quickly surpass their chimp counterparts.
 
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gluadys

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shernren said:
But the abiogenesis Pasteur disproved involved the spontaneous generation of complete, cladistically continuous (with extant species), and macroscopic lifeforms. Crucially, it also would have disproved, not proved, the notion of common descent. The abiogenesis present in many modern biological theories of origins is completely different.

Something creationists conveniently like to forget is the prior to spontaneous generation being disproved, it was often cited in Christian theological works as evidence of the continuing power of creation God left in nature.
 
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AV1611VET

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consideringlily said:
Jesus often spoke in parable, so I guess I am not understanding your question.
AV1611VET said:
I find it very difficult to believe that Genesis was an allegory. Why would God, Who says to let all things be done decently and in order (1 Corinthians 14:40) start off His word with an allegory?
Myths are often based in real events. The city of Troy for example.

Percentage-wise, in your opinion, how much of the Epic of Gilgamesh is fact, and how much of the Bible's account is fact?
The Flood is probably based on an actual Mesopotamian localized catastrophic flood.

I thought I explained the fallacy of a localized flood, using Scripture. In addition, two questions:
  • 1) Why would the writer of Chronicles add this fable to the genealogies of the Jews, who were very adamant about keeping their genealogies precise?
    2) Why would said writer add myth to myth? If the story of the Flood was a fable, then he's just adding more names into the allegory?
The Bible has allegory in it, and always alerts the reader to it via the context. There is no alert in the story of Noah and the Flood. Nor is there any reference later on to it being a parable. In fact, just the opposite, as I posted several references to Jesus, Jude, and others who took Genesis literally. (And I haven't even mentioned the Jews themselves, who take Genesis literally.)

Did you know that Mamonides (or Nachmonides) predicted a 10-dimensional universe, using Genesis 1 alone?

However, some figurative elements have been added like the rainbow explanation.
Please tell me what the "rainbow explanation" is. It took thousands and thousands of years before Isaac Newton (a man I cannot wait to meet) demonstrated how a rainbow is created.

You still haven't made a case that the Flood is word for word literal.
Nor have you that it is allegory.

Gilgamesh is an obvious fictionalized account of a real Sumerian king.
And I'll say this will all the sincerity I can muster: that Sumerian king wasn't born until hundreds and hundreds of years after Noah.

On the contrary, the names of the human characters were real people.
Huh? Are you making my case for me?

It did rain that is the reality of a planet with a water cycle.
No it didn't --- that is the reality of a planet with a Creator.

You are changing the subject.
Not on your life, Debi. My favorite two debates are Creation and the Flood and it's amusing how people twist and torque to prove their point --- albeit sad.

At the same time you are doing a disservice to scientists who are researching methods to reduce suffering.
Those "scientists" are doing it with my tax dollars and contributions, and I feel I have a right to tell them to "look elsewhere" for their answers --- like up.
 
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AV1611VET

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gluadys said:
Something creationists conveniently like to forget is the prior to spontaneous generation being disproved, it was often cited in Christian theological works as evidence of the continuing power of creation God left in nature.
In spite of the Bible, or in obedience to it?
 
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gluadys

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AV1611VET said:
In spite of the Bible, or in obedience to it?

In obedience to it as they saw it. They noted that in Genesis 1:24, God commanded the earth to bring forth living beings. They saw spontaneous generation as evidence that the fructifying capacity of the earth had never wholly died.

I don't know of any biblical reason to say their thinking was wrong.

Do you?
 
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shernren

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Something creationists conveniently like to forget is the prior to spontaneous generation being disproved, it was often cited in Christian theological works as evidence of the continuing power of creation God left in nature.

Ditto fixity of species and the impossibility of extinction. Given how completely these concepts have vanished from creationist thought, it's as if YECism wasn't around before 1900 ... oh wait. ;)
 
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AV1611VET

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rmwilliamsll said:
And I'll say this will all the sincerity I can muster: that Sumerian king wasn't born until hundreds and hundreds of years after Noah.

ok.
prove it.
or just sketch out how you would do so given the right tools.
Gilgamesh, if he was real, was a Babylonian king.

Genesis 10 = Noah > Ham > Cush > Nimrod

And Nimrod, great-grandson of Noah, built Babylon.
 
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AV1611VET

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gluadys said:
In obedience to it as they saw it. They noted that in Genesis 1:24, God commanded the earth to bring forth living beings. They saw spontaneous generation as evidence that the fructifying capacity of the earth had never wholly died.

I don't know of any biblical reason to say their thinking was wrong.

Do you?
1) Read the next verse --- God did it, Himself.

2) Some of them worshipped the earth as a god.

Thus 1 above + 2 above = idolatry, which is forbidden.
 
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pastorkevin73

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consideringlily said:
pastorkevin73 is this the show you were talking about?

http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/show_homosapiens.html

Inquiring minds want to know.

I haven't looked at the link (It wasn't on the nature of things, but the story, "A Whale of a Story", was replayed last night on cbcnewsworld). The story wasn't what I was lead to believe it was. The information in my last past was based on information given to me by another person. Sorry for the error.
 
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XTE

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Poke, what would it take to just trust the TEs when they say YOU KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT EVOLUTION?

You should know a whole lot about it before you start dismissing it.

Truth is for me, and I'm sure for most other TEs, when we see you butcher Evolution to suit your needs.....we just laugh at try to correct. Little shake of the head in there too for having to mention it yet again.

Please quit showing your ignorance, and show us you ear for just a little bit.

Thank you and God Bless
 
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