Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?
How can one believe something they know?
Christianity isn't about religion, it's about a relationship.
Grace and peace,
Mark
If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?
How can one believe something they know?
There are external, physical, examinable miracles. If you study them using forensic science, you will see where the physics are broken in this object and that it literally cannot exist under standard theory, but there it is, this object - a real miracle.
These miracles are not freebees. They all come wrapped in an informational package - they are instructive miracles. The miracle is there to be a miracle, and the fact of the miracle is there to make you look at the informational package.
All of these miracles - every one of them - has specific religious content. All of the miracles but two are Catholic. All of the miracles but one are Christian. That fact itself is informative. There is an argument from presence and from absence.
If you want God's existence, and Christian nature, revealed to your own eyes through objects anybody can study, it can be done. But nobody will go down that path unless he needs to.
Faithful Christians don't want to go there, and atheists don't either: prove God, and prove that God is a specific way, and you can't then wriggle off the hook - you HAVE to accept it. Best, then, not to see and say you don't need it. That's fine.
What isn't fine, and where I do have to object and intervene, is when the decision not to look becomes a foolish denial of the existence of such things. They do exist. They can be examined. If one chooses not to look at them, it is not because one is either too wise or too smart for that. Rather, it is because one prefers to remain ignorant of it.
I choose to remain ignorant of things all the time. Sports scores, the rules of cricket, various computer programs - the world is full of information I could learn, but choose not to because I don't want to invest the time. For many, the scientific study of the physical miracles falls in that category. And that's fine, that's a choice. But to assert in ignorance that such things don't exist at all, or are figments of the imagination, is a lie. They do, and they're not.
Do not assume too much. You're "sure" that everyone who believes in things strongly enough will have "similar stories". But in fact they don't. And there are people like Paul, or like me, who quite strongly did NOT believe in something, who then got tackled by reality and had their eyes forced open by superior force. After that they had no choice but to accept the reality of what they had come unwillingly to know.
When it comes to God, you're not in command. He can come in and force you to acknowledge his existence, and force you to reject the whole path of your life before that. Look what he did to Paul! He broke Paul, blinded him, humiliated him, forced him to be dependent on the very people he was going to torture. He forced Paul, by reality, to acknowledge in an instant that the religion by which he had sworn, and by which he enthusiastically made his living, was false and wrong, and the religion he hated most was, in fact, true. And he forced him - on pain of blindness, to go and put himself under the tutelage of the very people that a moment before he had despised.
Essentially, God took the cur, Saul, to the spot of filth that Saul had made on the rug, rubbed Saul's nose in it, and threw him out in the dark for a few days to suffer. He BROKE Saul. He broke his reputation - thereafter Paul would be detested by Jews, and beaten and at risk of his life, and distrusted by many, many Christians, who did not forget what Saul had been, and who did not trust his conversion. He left Paul physically crippled and promised Paul that He would make Paul suffer going forward. Paul would carry the message, and PART OF that message would be the ongoing example of Paul's continued suffering. Paul did it willingly, because he saw that he was wrong. Had he refused, God would have left him blind, to starve to death without Christian help. And then he would have thrown him into the fires of Hell at final judgment for the murder of so many Christians.
God was not nice to Paul at all. He put Paul through hell, as an example, BECAUSE Saul had put Christians through hell. Paul's reward was in the afterlife, not this one. And Paul knew it, and accepted his fate as deserved, because it was.
You want to believe. If God reaches out of the air and grabs you, then you know. And then what? Then you can't go back to not knowing and not believing, not ever. Because if you try, then you know full well you are being Judas, and then as the disasters pile up in your life, you will know why. God will not be mocked. If he takes the trouble to come out of the universe and space and time to look at you, mortal creature, straight in the face and say "HERE I AM", then YOU are stuck for life, and you're stuck following something you never wanted to follow, and accepting the truth of things you don't want to believe. And you know that - your wish having been granted - you are now accountable for the knowledge you have, and you cannot escape it by "disbelieving", because you CAN'T ever again disbelieve...because you know.
That's the difference between believing and knowing, which was your original question. You tried to get to knowledge through belief before, but you could not get there, because what you were believing was not, in fact, true. And the truth - the full truth - you would not have accepted. Even now, you could see the truth through your senses, by studying the physical miracles in depth. But if you do, you will come out the other end discovering that certain things you don't want to believe are part of the truth, and then you're stuck in the same sort of misery that Democrats will be in if Trump wins the election, or Republicans will be in if Hillary does: a reality you don't like, but can't change.
Are you really ready to accept ANYTHING that God shows you. If God reveals himself and you discover that the jihadis are RIGHT, would you become a fundamentalist Muslim? Or are there some truths that are so very unpalatable that, if they are true, you'd rather remain ignorant than find yourself forced to accept the truth of things you absolutely hate?
Don't kid yourself that people who have seen God or the supernatural are merely recounting subjective experiences. The physical miracles are not subjective. They are objective, and can be studied by forensic science - already have been. You CAN know the answers to what you seek. But ask yourself: Do I really want to, if knowledge meant that I would have to reverse my most treasured beliefs about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? If the reality of the universe will not make you happy because it conflicts with what you passionately believe now, do you really want the answer? Are you willing to become a Nazi, if God is a Nazi? Are you willing to become a racist, if God is a racist? Are you willing to become a homosexual, if God is a homosexual? Are you willing to do what you hate, if that is what God is?
Are you willing to kill your own child if God demands it of you?
You would? I would tell him to do it himself. I am not willing to kill my own child to please God.
In fact, I am sure that if "God" told me in his voice to do that, I would round on God and tell him, angrily, that he was NOT God, and to get the f--- out of my head.
I did something very similar on a different subject. When God told me to stop eating his animals, I was willing to try to do that, because I feel pity for the animals, and had thought about that for a long time. I did have health concerns, though, because I have found that I don't do well without at least some animal food. So when God spoke to me again and said to stop eating his animals, I asked him why. He did not respond with what I would have expected - he did not speak of compassion, or lateralize. He said "Because I said so." Which surprised me, so I followed up "And what if I don't?" He answered, in a hard voice "Then I will kill you." At which point I rounded on him and shouted, out loud in broad daylight: "F... you! You are not God! If you ARE God, then kill me now! I DARE you to kill me RIGHT NOW! YOU CAN'T, because YOU ARE NOT GOD! GET the F out of my head you s-o-b!"
And I turned and walked into the nearest diner and I ordered a chopped steak - I had been planning to eat a salad.
That voice sounded like God, but I'm pretty sure it was a demon. Just because something can talk to you out of the air and do miracles doesn't mean that it's God talking. And just because God has talked to me once doesn't mean that something else can't mimic God and talk to me in the same voice, and tell me to do something else, something that even seems mostly right.
In the end, I alone am the final judge of everything when it comes to what I do and don't do. As are you, for you. As are we all.
And because that which is foul can mimic the fair, I need some sort of standard by which to judge. The Scriptures and the Canon Law of the Catholic Church provide pretty good standards, but in the end the judge who has to apply them, and who is accountable for their application, is me.
The first two sound like provinient grace, the things leading up to conversion. Conviction of sin is clearly essential to Christion conversion so the the fourth and final step, the encounter with Christ resulting in being born again.Posters' semantic niggling is not helpful; what you are really asking is this: How can I gain a confident inner assurance that Jesus wants a relationship with me? On this issue, intellectualized faith affirmations are the booby prize, because they offer just enough spirituality to inoculate you against the real thing--a self-authenticating mystical encounter with the Holy Spirit. Many Christians claim to "know Jesus" only because that is the expectation of their church's ethos, and so, the claim becomes part of their self-image and not of their actual experience. A man was marital problems was asked, "Do you love your wife?" Annoyed, he instantly replied, "Of course, I love my wife!" What is instructive is that he responded from a respectable belief; he never paused, thought about his actual way of being, and then honestly answered tha question based on his life experience.
So the real question is this: How can I have a personal relationship with Christ? The answer is that you must meet the conditions for such a relationship? And what, pray tell, are those? Well, it must first be recognized that the Bible is not a book of systematic theology. So any given salvation prooftext assumes a lot of suppressed assumptions that must be supplied by a comprehensive survey of Scripture. Also, God is sovereign and knows you better than you know yourself. That means that, in your case or mine, necessary conditions must be satisfied that are not sufficient conditions for "knowing Christ." Still, we can identify 4 principles that serve as a productive starting point.
(1) God insists that "you will find me when you seek me with all your heart (Jeremiah 29:13)." So the purity and intensity of your longing is more decisive than what you pretend to believe. Spend time in meditating on how desperately you crave a relationship with Christ. Let the inner ache build to the breaking point. The tension in a stretched rubber band seeks resolution, and the tension of your longing will build unto it is released by a marvelous encounter with the Risen Christ.
(2) Even so, such a longing may be fruitless unless you meet a second condition. You must ask yourself whether you are willing to meet Christ's conditions of discipleship. Then you must search out and study those conditions and honestly assure Christ that you are willing to meet them if He makes Himself real to you. For example, study the symbolic meaning of self-denial and cross-bearing--and the need to lose your current self and its agendas in favor of a brand new Christ self and its new priorities: "If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves, take up their cross, and follow me. For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake, and the sake of the Gospel, will save it (Mark 8:34-35)." God does not expect perfection from a new believer, but your focused intention on His will and priorities must at least be sincere.
(3) Notice that I have not yet mentioned repentance, which basically means a remorseful change of mind. That is because what passes for repentance is phony unless the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin, so that you become aware of how your shortcomings erect a barrier between you and Christ. But at some point in your quest to discover Christ's conditions and the ways in which you fall short, the Holy Spirit will convict you, so that your repentance can actually be genuine. At that point, an expression of remorse will help your progress towards a direct encounter with Christ.
(4) Fourth, you must listen intently for Christ's overture as a courting would-be lover! But how can you know when this is happening? When the ache of your inner longing subtly becomes to nurture you, to feed your inner life, then you will sense that your invitation has been accepted: "Behold, I stand at the door, knocking. If anyone will hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him and dine with him and he with me (Revelation 3:20)." But your blossoming new faith can wither away, it you quickly forget what brought Him to your heart. You must continue to nurture your longing for His presence with continued meditation.
The Gospel couldn't be any clearer, you hear the gospel, believe and receive the Holy Spirit.
Ok believe then, I'm not stopping you. Belief is great, so long as you know it's only knowing in part. A very small part.Faith is not something black or white. It has grey levels. We all know that George Washington was the president of US. However in the end, we (a lot of us) actually believe that he's the president, as it is a record from other humans we don't even bother to examine the details, or do you!
If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?
How can one believe something they know?
Yes I have faith, I'm putting it in the right place.Believe, do you believe that Abraham Lincoln, was a United States President, a man that you never Knew/Know personally? However you believe Abraham Lincoln existed because of history books/ school /etc... The bible is a History book that proves that Jesus Christ existed then and exist now.
Now you want to know Jesus personally His Body and Blood, would you go out of your way to see Him??? God the father stated that He wants ALL to SEE His Son and believe in Him that they may be saved, it say so in scripture, you can find it in John 6:40 Below:
John 6:40And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.
Believeume, Tell me when God says EVERYONE, does this mean only those then, or does God also mean you, me, and EVERYONE today? Or would the Father forget about us seeing with our eyes His Son and believth in Him that we to MAY have life everlasting, and be raised on the last day?
Believeume, you must be saying to yourself, right about now: So where can I see Jesus Christ so that I can know him as well as believe in Him.
Believeume, you must believeUme, that God truly meant for EVERYONE to see His Son and Believeth in Him, you can actually See Jesus Christ and Believeth in Him TODAY Body Blood Soul and Divinity / Eucharist, Just as the Father wants us to do, and this you can do in every Catholic Church in the world today.
So here is your believing in Him and Knowing Him at the same time. However, do you have the FAITH, to BELIEVEUINHIM and all what the Father has said in John 6:40
You should make an instructional movie clip, I'd watch it.Posters' semantic niggling is not helpful; what you are really asking is this: How can I gain a confident inner assurance that Jesus wants a relationship with me? On this issue, intellectualized faith affirmations are the booby prize, because they offer just enough spirituality to inoculate you against the real thing--a self-authenticating mystical encounter with the Holy Spirit. Many Christians claim to "know Jesus" only because that is the expectation of their church's ethos, and so, the claim becomes part of their self-image and not of their actual experience. A man was marital problems was asked, "Do you love your wife?" Annoyed, he instantly replied, "Of course, I love my wife!" What is instructive is that he responded from a respectable belief; he never paused, thought about his actual way of being, and then honestly answered tha question based on his life experience.
So the real question is this: How can I have a personal relationship with Christ? The answer is that you must meet the conditions for such a relationship? And what, pray tell, are those? Well, it must first be recognized that the Bible is not a book of systematic theology. So any given salvation prooftext assumes a lot of suppressed assumptions that must be supplied by a comprehensive survey of Scripture. Also, God is sovereign and knows you better than you know yourself. That means that, in your case or mine, necessary conditions must be satisfied that are not sufficient conditions for "knowing Christ." Still, we can identify 4 principles that serve as a productive starting point.
(1) God insists that "you will find me when you seek me with all your heart (Jeremiah 29:13)." So the purity and intensity of your longing is more decisive than what you pretend to believe. Spend time in meditating on how desperately you crave a relationship with Christ. Let the inner ache build to the breaking point. The tension in a stretched rubber band seeks resolution, and the tension of your longing will build unto it is released by a marvelous encounter with the Risen Christ.
(2) Even so, such a longing may be fruitless unless you meet a second condition. You must ask yourself whether you are willing to meet Christ's conditions of discipleship. Then you must search out and study those conditions and honestly assure Christ that you are willing to meet them if He makes Himself real to you. For example, study the symbolic meaning of self-denial and cross-bearing--and the need to lose your current self and its agendas in favor of a brand new Christ self and its new priorities: "If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves, take up their cross, and follow me. For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake, and the sake of the Gospel, will save it (Mark 8:34-35)." God does not expect perfection from a new believer, but your focused intention on His will and priorities must at least be sincere.
(3) Notice that I have not yet mentioned repentance, which basically means a remorseful change of mind. That is because what passes for repentance is phony unless the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin, so that you become aware of how your shortcomings erect a barrier between you and Christ. But at some point in your quest to discover Christ's conditions and the ways in which you fall short, the Holy Spirit will convict you, so that your repentance can actually be genuine. At that point, an expression of remorse will help your progress towards a direct encounter with Christ.
(4) Fourth, you must listen intently for Christ's overture as a courting would-be lover! But how can you know when this is happening? When the ache of your inner longing subtly becomes to nurture you, to feed your inner life, then you will sense that your invitation has been accepted: "Behold, I stand at the door, knocking. If anyone will hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him and dine with him and he with me (Revelation 3:20)." But your blossoming new faith can wither away, it you quickly forget what brought Him to your heart. You must continue to nurture your longing for His presence with continued meditation.
Yeah faith does go both ways.You wake up. You put your clothes on.. you eat you shower what ever. You get your keys get in your car or take you bike or buss. You get to school or work. All of which you KNOW were going to be there. Not once did you ever doubt did you? No.
I AM. Is clear. If one wants to know Him.. all one has to do is ASK. Now asking others ..duh your going to hear all kinds of things. Which might help you in what your trying to do but will not be true. Those that seek find..those that knock it shall be open those that ask get. Faith goes both ways.
He is not real because one says it or thinks it or believes it. What is can not be made or imagined.
I have already been though those steps, I can't get any lower to the floor when I repent, and I can't weep anymore than I have. My eyes were puffy for weeks.
On the contrary, your oversimplification couldn't be more opaque. It doesn't address the OP's question of how belief becomes strong enough to "know" in the sense of receiving inner assurance, or of how to receive the Holy Spirit and know that you have done so. My previous post offers a starting point for addressing such confusion.
Mark: "There are many more at crucial doctrinal discussions and at vital times in redemptive history. You know you are saved if and when the Holy Spirit tells you that you are."
\Again, you miss the point: doctrinal correctness is the booby prize because it doesn't address the question of knowing by direct experience. Your prooftexts illustrate the point I made about Paul not being a systematic theologian and therefore leaving out suppressed premises that can only be inferred from what he says elsewhere about experiencing the Spirit. Again, the issue is not what the Spirit inspires in your prooftexts, but how a frustrated seeker can come to "know" Christ by direct experience and how that experience can be identified.
Intuition is the voice of our spirit, not an emotion. Emotions are expressions of our thoughts intended to move us to action in some capacity. Do I disagree with your point of emotion? No. Because once the voice of the spirit is heard by a mother the thought comes to her of the needs of the baby and the emotion follows for action.I would say when a mother intuitively senses her baby's need, that sense is emotional.
If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?
How can one believe something they know?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?