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Believe in Genesis Chap 1-3?!

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I do disagree with some of the rebuttals to my points but the TE not beoing a theory your right... and your point of the stories being ledgends. ledgends come about after real things bappen and are told by word of mouth over the years. but since they are spread by humans they can get tainted with more or less detail than what was true.

by saying that the stories are ledgends you are saying that what is writen in the Bible, the God breathed! Bible, is tainted my man and therefore is falable, leving it open to Christians who want to fit in to the science scene.

what ever happened to taking the Bible for what it is?
 
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WAB

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Mathematician said:
Believing what Genesis says and believing your interpretation of it are two different things.

Gen. 2:4 says that the six days of creation were one "day" and were many "generations of the heavens." The last 6000 years have not shown us even one generation of the atmosphere. So each day of creation was much longer than 6000 years. Maybe even millions or billions of years.

You are removing the word "day" from its immediate context. In Scripture, "day" can obviously refer to the 24 hour period, or an undetermined period of time, say "...the day of the Lord..." . Here is a quote that is non-equivocal, given by a non-Christian.(at least at the time given).
DAYS

"So far as I know, there is no Professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer of Gen.1:1-11:32 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience, (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story, (c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world wide and extinguished all human and animal life except for those in the ark." Dr. James Barr (Regius Professor of Hebrew, at Oxford University).

Note that the experts are not saying they BELIEVE the account; they are just dealing honestly with what the Scriptures actually say with the realities of the language.

W.A.B.
 
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chaoschristian

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PippinofTook said:
I do disagree with some of the rebuttals to my points
I for one would be most interested in seeing your commentary on our rebuttals.

but the TE not beoing a theory your right...
As we said, its a theology/philosophy.

and your point of the stories being ledgends. ledgends come about after real things bappen and are told by word of mouth over the years. but since they are spread by humans they can get tainted with more or less detail than what was true.
You are agreeing with this, so please keep in mind that many decades passed before the first gospel was recorded in writing and several centuries passed before the Bible as we know it was first put together under the auspices of the Roman Emperor. How did the gospel survive in those first key decades without a written form? Could it be oral tradition?

by saying that the stories are ledgends you are saying that what is writen in the Bible, the God breathed! Bible, is tainted my man and therefore is falable, leving it open to Christians who want to fit in to the science scene.
There is a significant difference between infallibility and inerrancy within the context of bibliology. One can recognize and accept the history of how the Bible was created and its inherent errors and still also accept its infallible nature and ability to reveal the Truth and Will of God. The Bible remains infallible despite certain small errors in its account of Creation which conflict with the reality of God's Creation.

I think something that is importnat for you to realize is that many TEs are among that group of Christians who look upon the Bible as only one of many tools or relevations of God's Dominion. Among others are church tradition (like it or not all denominations and church have traditions that help to inform their theology), science and reason (which are blessings from God to be used in our pursuit to understand His Creation and be in relationship with Him) and the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit.

what ever happened to taking the Bible for what it is?
That question can easily and readily be asked of you as well.
 
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gluadys

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PippinofTook said:
ledgends come about after real things bappen and are told by word of mouth over the years. but since they are spread by humans they can get tainted with more or less detail than what was true.

Well I wouldn't say that legendary detail taints a story.

by saying that the stories are ledgends you are saying that what is writen in the Bible, the God breathed! Bible, is tainted my man and therefore is falable, leving it open to Christians who want to fit in to the science scene.

Psychologists call this projection. You sum up your beliefs about legends and then tell me that is what I say.

This is not what I am saying . This is what you are saying.

what ever happened to taking the Bible for what it is?

I think that when I identify poetry, legend, law, myth and history in the bible, that that is exactly what I am doing. Taking it for what it is.
 
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chaoschristian said:
You are agreeing with this, so please keep in mind that many decades passed before the first gospel was recorded in writing and several centuries passed before the Bible as we know it was first put together under the auspices of the Roman Emperor. How did the gospel survive in those first key decades without a written form? Could it be oral tradition?

yea it would have to have been but another thing you have to realize is that God is soveregn. He would not allow His word to be tainted and still call it all Hisown. He would be lieing.


chaoschristian said:
There is a significant difference between infallibility and inerrancy within the context of bibliology. One can recognize and accept the history of how the Bible was created and its inherent errors and still also accept its infallible nature and ability to reveal the Truth and Will of God. The Bible remains infallible despite certain small errors in its account of Creation which conflict with the reality of God's Creation.

I truly dont see how you can say that. God is flawless so any thing He does if He says it is perfect infalable and perfectly trustworthy. there can be NO errors!

chaoschristian said:
I think something that is importnat for you to realize is that many TEs are among that group of Christians who look upon the Bible as only one of many tools or relevations of God's Dominion. Among others are church tradition (like it or not all denominations and church have traditions that help to inform their theology), science and reason (which are blessings from God to be used in our pursuit to understand His Creation and be in relationship with Him) and the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit.

yes I do realize that but if any thing contradicts with the Bible we are to ignore it put it away from ourselves. thats why paul said to I think it was the chorinthians, dont take my word for it reasherch it study it and if it conflicts with, at their time their bible their scriptures, disregard me.
 
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chaoschristian

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PippinofTook said:
yea it would have to have been but another thing you have to realize is that God is soveregn. He would not allow His word to be tainted and still call it all Hisown. He would be lieing.
I realize God is sovereign. Everyone in part of CF acknowledges that. Let me ask you this: is it possible the the Will and Truth of God will emerge from the text of the Bible regardless of the errors that it might contain? In others words, is it possible that the power behind His will is so great that it will overcome any human error and be revealed inspite of it?

I truly dont see how you can say that. God is flawless so any thing He does if He says it is perfect infalable and perfectly trustworthy. there can be NO errors!
God is flawless. His work is infallible, perfect and trustworthy. That said, the Bible does contain known errors of fact. Also realize that what you are reading and calling the Bible is a copy of a copy of a copy of copy, etc, etc, etc. There have been and are known transcription and translation errors. The Bible you hold in your hand is flawed, and yet it is infallible. Infallible does not necessarily mean inerrant.

yes I do realize that but if any thing contradicts with the Bible we are to ignore it put it away from ourselves. thats why paul said to I think it was the chorinthians, dont take my word for it reasherch it study it and if it conflicts with, at their time their bible their scriptures, disregard me.
I'll respond to this in a bit, just know that I believe you are unnecessarily handicapping yourself in this regard.
 
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ebia

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PippinofTook said:
yea it would have to have been but another thing you have to realize is that God is soveregn. He would not allow His word to be tainted and still call it all Hisown. He would be lieing.
Well, he doesn't call it his own, and neither is it tainted. It's exactly what it needs to be. However, what it needs to be is a library of books to learn from, not a book of accurate facts.

I truly dont see how you can say that. God is flawless so any thing He does if He says it is perfect infalable and perfectly trustworthy. there can be NO errors!
That simply does not follow unless God specifically chooses to make it so. God could make an error-free book does not mean God did make an error free book. God chooses to work through the fallible and the error prone all the time. His power is sufficient to work through the least of us - it is certainly sufficient to work through book with some inaccuracies in it.

yes I do realize that but if any thing contradicts with the Bible we are to ignore it put it away from ourselves. thats why paul said to I think it was the chorinthians, dont take my word for it reasherch it study it and if it conflicts with, at their time their bible their scriptures, disregard me.
When one studies the bible in faith, one (hopefully) allows God to speak through it. It's not the bible itself Paul wanted the Corinthians, you or me to listen to, but God speaking through it.
 
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ebia

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Extirpated Wildlife said:
Fake can mean those things. I'm not using the wrong word. I checked the dictionary before I wrote it.
Get a better dictionary.

The other words can, in their least precise senses, be taken to mean fake, but fake cannot mean myth or fiction. Try walking into a bookshop and asking for the "fake section".

When TEs talk about myth, they are not using it in a sense that equates to fake. If you translate it to fake you are building yourself a straw man.
 
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ebia

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PippinofTook said:
okay y'all you may not take me for much because I'm new but I wrote a paper on this for one of my history classes...
chaoschristian answered this perfectly, but I still wanted to comment on one points:


In Theistic-Evolution Genesis is not taken literally. They see it as a story written for people who could not understand things like evolution,

That is a distortion. TEs generally see Genesis as a book written for all time, but (like any other book) within the understanding of its authors.
 
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shernren

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Welcome Pippin! I hope you don't have any hard feelings about the initial response to your post. I won't try to be too negative about it but I just wanted to point out a very, very common misconception about TEism that you put in your essay.

The main argument for Theistic-Evolution is their interpretation of the word “day”. They argue that, as stated in 2 Peter 3:8

“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”

That is not actually a main argument of TEism. The typical TE argument is a little different from that. But this line of reasoning (that a "day" may be a bit more than a day) is quite commonly found among OEC circles - the general belief that God created in about the same order and style as stated literally in Genesis, but over very long periods of time (so that the conventional dates are correct), and generally they also believe in a local flood. According to their view, yes, "day 1" was a very long period of time, "day 2" was another very long period of time, "day 3" was another very long period of time ...

Whereas, for the TE, the days don't actually correspond to any real period of time, but instead reveal certain aspects of God's creative style and purpose. Among those are that God is orderly (check out something called "tohu-bohu" parallels - basically God creates a gap on days 1-3 and fills those gaps on days 4-6), that God is the creator and therefore is all-powerful, that all nature is created and therefore should not be worshiped. Etc.

The difference between these approaches is that the OEC seems to me to be more allegorical, whereas the TE seems to be more mythical / parabolic. Let me illustrate using the parable of the Good Samaritan.

There are three ways to interpret the parable of the Good Samaritan. The first way (which nobody does, strangely) is to assume that Jesus is telling a true story. There was actually a man who was going down the road, who was robbed, who was rescued by a Samaritan. If we'd been back in time when Jesus told the story we would've been able to get a name for the man, how much he lost, who rescued him, and how many children he had, etc. Jesus took an actual event and taught a lesson from it.

That is akin to the YEC approach to Genesis 1-11. Everything actually happened literally and historically.

The second approach was the one taken by Augustine and the medieval theologians. This was the "allegorical" view, in which every single detail in the parable represented an actual happening in the history of God's people. The "certain man" was Adam, "going down from Jerusalem to Jericho" depicted his fall, "the Samaritan" was Jesus, "oil and wine" represent the sacraments (or the work of the Holy Spirit - can't remember, off the top of my head), etc. etc.

That's akin to the OEC approach to Genesis 1-11. Nope, it wasn't exactly one day, but it was a definite period of time. All those "kinds" were created separately and didn't evolve one from another, even if God took longer than 24 hours to create them. The flood may not have been worldwide, but it certainly wiped out all life on land. Everything in Genesis 1-11 may not have been actual but it closely represents an actual period / event in history.

The third approach to the parable is to assume that Jesus made a story out of thin air. There was no man going down, no Samaritan, no robbers, zilch. None of these existed except in Jesus' head. But He told the story all the same.

That's more like what the TEs believe.

(At least, that's how I see it. Gotta run!)
 
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chaoschristian

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ebia said:
chaoschristian answered this perfectly, but I still wanted to comment on one points:
No, no, no. Gluadys answered it perfectly. She posts with a steady measure and grace I could never hope to achieve. I'm just a crotchety old man, incapable of perfection in any form.
 
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ebia

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chaoschristian said:
No, no, no. Gluadys answered it perfectly. She posts with a steady measure and grace I could never hope to achieve. I'm just a crotchety old man, incapable of perfection in any form.
I posted that before I saw her response, and I was too lazy to go back and add her name.
 
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chaoschristian

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PippinofTook said:
nope no hard feelings at all... I really shouldnt have logged on tho this thread... I've done it on three other boards... and I always end up getting myself banned for one reason or another... I'm glad I caught it before I exploded on y'all... sorry
I apologize if it seems I was hard on you initially, I tend to speak my mind, and not just on the internet. I hope you stick around.
 
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shernren

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PippinofTook said:
nope no hard feelings at all... I really shouldnt have logged on tho this thread... I've done it on three other boards... and I always end up getting myself banned for one reason or another... I'm glad I caught it before I exploded on y'all... sorry

Oh no. You're fine. You're on the conservative side for a new person. ;) As long as you don't call anyone a heretic you'll do just fine. :D But every once in a while there is some turbulence here. Be ready and have slightly thick skin. XD

If you're here to change people's minds, you might find it hard to adjust. If you're here to learn why other people think the way they do (even if you disagree) then welcome aboard! :D I hope you'll enjoy your time here, long or short, and that we'll help each other grow in Jesus Christ ... even if we do our growing on opposite sides of the origins fence. :)
 
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Extirpated Wildlife

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ebia said:
Get a better dictionary.

The other words can, in their least precise senses, be taken to mean fake, but fake cannot mean myth or fiction. Try walking into a bookshop and asking for the "fake section".

When TEs talk about myth, they are not using it in a sense that equates to fake. If you translate it to fake you are building yourself a straw man.

Let me correct myself. I used my thesaurus
 
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chaoschristian

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PippinofTook said:
thanx y'all... yea I do this stuff for yea seeing what others believe but also for the debating practice... dont really have any one to debate with being homeschooled
So, who reviewed and critiqued your history paper?

I ask only out of curiosity since I homeschool my son (although he is not old enough to be writing papers on origines theology yet.)
 
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