Believe in Genesis Chap 1-3?!

[Edmond]

Yes. I agree. But you can't believe in Jesus without a certain amount of information. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

I agree. The person seeking to find the truth will somewhere, somehow also be exposed to hearing. They will hear the word of God. ..

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[ebia]

Truthful to what extreme of liberalism?

You are still tied to a 20th century mindset that things that are factual are more true than things that are not. That is simply not how people have understood the world for most of history.

Adam didn't exist?

Adam does exist, in all of us. He represents all of mankind.

Sin is a natural state and that the sinning of Adam is just our way of allegorical way of explaining things to why bad things happen?

His story explains how we all separate ourselves from God.

 

[TheBeginningSeasons]

Another comment on this:
Do you mean like how John recorded in Revelation what he was shown by Christ? Do you think Revelation is also entirely literal with no symbolism? If not, I don't think you're being consistent.

Exactly, the HOLY SPIRIT is what led the authors of the Bible to write and record what they did...if not then it would just be a bunch of "stories" that people through together and had no real basis on what they kept a record of. Now lets examine something else here, if you believe in "the truth" but it not being fact from what the Bible says....how can you in fact believe at all? You think the stories are true but not fact, they are just made up? When studing the Bible you should pray before hand to ask God to guide you in what speaks to you correct? So why should it be different for believing what the truth is? THE truth of the Bible is the FACT! You can't say "oh I believe Christ was the savior and God can do that, but not that He made us instantly just from Speaking it into exisitance." Does that make sense? I am not attacking anyone, and I am not saying you have to believe as I do. Believing is believing, which means you believe what the Bible says in black and white. IF you want to make up things and take it out of context then that is your own decision. By no means and I trying to offend, I am just trying to shed light for people who have been mislead by the enemy into their trap.

 

[chaoschristian]

Exactly, the HOLY SPIRIT is what led the authors of the Bible to write and record what they did...if not then it would just be a bunch of "stories" that people through together and had no real basis on what they kept a record of. Now lets examine something else here, if you believe in "the truth" but it not being fact from what the Bible says....how can you in fact believe at all? You think the stories are true but not fact, they are just made up? When studing the Bible you should pray before hand to ask God to guide you in what speaks to you correct? So why should it be different for believing what the truth is? THE truth of the Bible is the FACT! You can't say "oh I believe Christ was the savior and God can do that, but not that He made us instantly just from Speaking it into exisitance." Does that make sense? I am not attacking anyone, and I am not saying you have to believe as I do. Believing is believing, which means you believe what the Bible says in black and white. IF you want to make up things and take it out of context then that is your own decision. By no means and I trying to offend, I am just trying to shed light for people who have been mislead by the enemy into their trap.

Believing is indeed believing. I believe in God the Father and Creator, Jesus Christ the Son and Resurrected Saviour, and the Holy Ghost, the indwelling spirit of God found in all men.

I do not believe in the Bible, for my faith is reserved for God alone.

I have a contention with what you say in the latter half of your statement (see bold.)

Remeber that Christians existed for 60 some years before the first gospel was ever written down, and Christianity existed for some three hundred years before the first Bible was compiled under the auspices of Emperor Constantine. Jesus, our Lord, our Saviour, our King didn't see fit to write down a single word!

I can have faith in God and not believe in what the Bible says in black and white. In fact I think that all Christians need to have some amount of scepticism regarding the Bible. That doesn't mean that I don't believe that the Bible reveals the Divine Will and Truth of God, quite the opposite. What it does mean is that when I use the Bible, I know that getting to that Truth is going to take some work. Anything worth doing is going to take work.

My personal approach is to balance reliance on scripture and reliance on science through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I think that when we employ all of the tools that God gave us that we arrive at a more complete understanding of God's Creation and His intention for us in it.

Now regarding your last statement, I understand your good intentions, but all that I see is a politely worded version of the "You're-Not-A-Real-Christian" Hammer (TM). Maybe I'm putting too fine a point on it, and if so then I apologize. But from where I'm sitting you just tipped your hand.

 

[TheBeginningSeasons]

Believing is indeed believing. I believe in God the Father and Creator, Jesus Christ the Son and Resurrected Saviour, and the Holy Ghost, the indwelling spirit of God found in all men.

I do not believe in the Bible, for my faith is reserved for God alone.

I have a contention with what you say in the latter half of your statement (see bold.)

Remeber that Christians existed for 60 some years before the first gospel was ever written down, and Christianity existed for some three hundred years before the first Bible was compiled under the auspices of Emperor Constantine. Jesus, our Lord, our Saviour, our King didn't see fit to write down a single word!

I can have faith in God and not believe in what the Bible says in black and white. In fact I think that all Christians need to have some amount of scepticism regarding the Bible. That doesn't mean that I don't believe that the Bible reveals the Divine Will and Truth of God, quite the opposite. What it does mean is that when I use the Bible, I know that getting to that Truth is going to take some work. Anything worth doing is going to take work.

My personal approach is to balance reliance on scripture and reliance on science through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I think that when we employ all of the tools that God gave us that we arrive at a more complete understanding of God's Creation and His intention for us in it.

Now regarding your last statement, I understand your good intentions, but all that I see is a politely worded version of the "You're-Not-A-Real-Christian" Hammer (TM). Maybe I'm putting too fine a point on it, and if so then I apologize. But from where I'm sitting you just tipped your hand.

This "You're-Not-A-Christian" Hammer (TM) is something I do not know of. I am trying to help ask questions and state things I believe need to be said to all Chrisitans to have them ask themselves if they truly are right in their faith? I am not perfect by any means, I am learning from this also. I learn from peoples different beliefs, whether I think they are wrong or right. I understand your faith in God, that is great! But if you believe in Holy Trinity how can you not believe the truths of the Bible? Granted the first complete Bible may have been completely when you say, I do not know. But what I do know if that scrolls exisited of before Christ was born. These scrolls were used to teach of God's grace and laws. Don't you remember when the scrolls were lost in the Temple in the Old Testament for 100's of years? Don't you remember what happened when they were found?! The people were lead by the King Josiah, the book was called "Book of the Law of the Lord" 2 Chronicles 34:14 as passed through the years beginning with Moses. I believe these books would be now called the first 5 books in the Old Testament if I am not mistaken. I pray we have a "rediscovering of the truth" and go through out world and destroy all of our pagan idols!!!! His word was in the beginning, and it was so!!!

 

[chaoschristian]

If you are truly seeking to understand, then I apologize. Don't worry about The Hammer. Perhaps I'll put something in my blog about it [shameless self-endorsement acknowledged]

Please realize that to me there is a significant difference between believing in the revealed truth of the Bible and believing in the literal delivery of the Bible. Whether or not you read the Bible literally, I think it has but one Will and one Truth. However, if you choose to read the Bible as literal truth, then I think you are not allowing any room for science and any experiential learning that takes place from being in relationship with Creation. To me that leaves out too much of the picture.

 

[ebia]

Now lets examine something else here, if you believe in "the truth" but it not being fact from what the Bible says....how can you in fact believe at all? You think the stories are true but not fact, they are just made up?

The stories are "made up" to carry the messages they carry, just as the parables of the N.T. are. The messages of Genesis are about God creating everything through the Word. About our place as stewards of creation and our relationship to God. About how we separate ourselves from God through sin. And so forth. The story is a device to carry that truth, because that is how ancient people taught and preserved the values they held to be important - in stories. Although the events in the stories never took place in the way described, the message is far more true than a historically accurate but irrelevent document could ever hope to be.

When studing the Bible you should pray before hand to ask God to guide you in what speaks to you correct? So why should it be different for believing what the truth is? THE truth of the Bible is the FACT! You can't say "oh I believe Christ was the savior and God can do that, but not that He made us instantly just from Speaking it into exisitance."

He did make us by speaking it into existance. But over billions of years using the processes that science discovered, not "poof" in 6 days.

Believing is believing, which means you believe what the Bible says in black and white.

If you take what the bible says in black and white, you miss most of the interesting bits.

IF you want to make up things and take it out of context then that is your own decision.

On the contrary, you are the one taking it out of the ancient context and understanding of truth in which it is written and reading it with a 20th century mindset.

 

[Stacey]

Well said. You can't pick and choose what you want to believe in the bible... It's all or nothing!

 

[chaoschristian]

Well said. You can't pick and choose what you want to believe in the bible... It's all or nothing!

I admire your faith, but your approach to reading the Bible is simply too uncritical for me to accept.

Your post implies that one must accept as literal truth the entirety of the Bible and if not, then one is without faith. I am correct in my interpretation?

The Genesis account doesn't exist to tell us HOW God created the Earth. It exists to tell us that God IS the Creator and to provide some level of insight into His nature and character.

Creation itself defies a literal interpretation of Genesis vis-a-vis 'The How'. God blessed us not only with scripture, He also blessed us with reasoning minds and the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit. Why deny yourself the full view of God's miracle? Accepting a scientific view of how Creation unfolded does not deny or weaken one's faith, it acknowledges the full range of gifts provided by God to one for seeking understanding of and relationship with the Creator and His Creation.

 

[artybloke]

Maybe I am wrong, but it seems you are saying you don't believe the first couple of chapters as real.

"Real" according to what criteria? the criteria of 19th Century Western positivist scientism that says that only scientifically verifiable facts are "real"? or the criteria of the rest of the world that says that symbolic, spiritual truth is every bit as real as "facts?"

Seems to me that the real "compromisers" are those who can't see beyond their "literalist" noses.

 

[gluadys]

Well said. You can't pick and choose what you want to believe in the bible... It's all or nothing!

Indeed you can't pick or choose what you want to believe in the bible. But you can and ought to study how to believe it.

Believing that a section of scripture is not a literal account but one based on symbolism is still belief and in many cases a belief more in line with that of the original author than a literalistic interpretation.

 

[TheBeginningSeasons]

Well said. You can't pick and choose what you want to believe in the bible... It's all or nothing!

Thank you, now for people who think science is needed to prove things and the Bible is apparently a bunch of stories put together for people to interput themselves. In Isaiah 45:11-12 "Do you question what I do? Do you give me orders about teh work of my hands? I am the one who made the earth and created people to live on it. WIth my hands I stretched out the heavens. All the millions of stars are at my command." Isn't that proof enough? Here Jesus quoted Isaiah, Mark 7:6 "You hypocrites! Isaiah was prophesying about you when he said, 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away. Their worship is a farce, for they replace God's commands with their own man-made teachings'" Doesn't that speak of what you are talking about here? Jesus taught from the old Scriptures as if they were THE TRUTH, now I know you all believe in Jesus. I am in no way coming after anyone here, or trying to be rude or mean. Just showing the truth. Isn't Jesus the one who told us that Moses wrote Genesis? Isn't Jesus the one who taught in the temple from the first Scriptures knowing it was His Fathers truth, love, and work that had made them?

One more question...if the Bible isn't true how can you account for all of the prophets who described the arrival of the Messiah? If it isn't true, then wouldn't that discredit Jesus all together? Wouldn't it? Just a question. And faith is believing in God, that what He has given us to lead our lives upon is His true and holy word.

 

[chaoschristian]

Thank you, now for people who think science is needed to prove things and the Bible is apparently a bunch of stories put together for people to interput themselves. In Isaiah 45:11-12 "Do you question what I do? Do you give me orders about teh work of my hands? I am the one who made the earth and created people to live on it. WIth my hands I stretched out the heavens. All the millions of stars are at my command." Isn't that proof enough? Here Jesus quoted Isaiah, Mark 7:6 "You hypocrites! Isaiah was prophesying about you when he said, 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away. Their worship is a farce, for they replace God's commands with their own man-made teachings'" Doesn't that speak of what you are talking about here? Jesus taught from the old Scriptures as if they were THE TRUTH, now I know you all believe in Jesus. I am in no way coming after anyone here, or trying to be rude or mean. Just showing the truth. Isn't Jesus the one who told us that Moses wrote Genesis? Isn't Jesus the one who taught in the temple from the first Scriptures knowing it was His Fathers truth, love, and work that had made them?

One more question...if the Bible isn't true how can you account for all of the prophets who described the arrival of the Messiah? If it isn't true, then wouldn't that discredit Jesus all together? Wouldn't it? Just a question. And faith is believing in God, that what He has given us to lead our lives upon is His true and holy word.

I do not need science to prove to me that God is the Creator. I believe that through faith alone. Additionally, even if I asked it, science would not be able to accomodate me in such a proof. In fact, I think its attitude would be wholly indifferent to the whole affair.

However, we do need to science to help us experience and reveal the wonders of God's on-going miracle and to join Him as co-creators in it. We are afterall charged with beings its stewards. What is rational in denying ourselves the best possible tools for being the best possible stewards? Or do you not think that this job is so important?

1Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;


2I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

3And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

4For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

8Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

9Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

10Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

11Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

Essentially this passage is God saying, "Look, I am the mighty dude, the be all and end all. If I want to make Cyrus, a gentile, my chosen one at this particular time for this particular purpose, who are you yokums to question me? I brought you into this world, and I can take you out (I think God got this line from my dad )."

Seriously, this passage helps to establish God's dominion over His Creation and His decisions regarding His Creation. I for one have already acknowledged this, and do so again in the opening paragraph of my post. What it fails to do is illustrate in any meaningful way HOW God created, and I hope you begin to realize that God seems to have left the 'defining of the HOW' more in the hands of science and less in the hands of literature.

Regarding Mark 7:1-23, I don't have time to type out a detailed reply, but I will later tonight. Know though that you have taken one small piece of a really great teaching and used it to try and wring out your own anemic meaning. Which is really ironic, since that is exactly what Jesus is accusing the pharisees of doing in Mark 7:1-23!

now I know you all believe in Jesus. I am in no way coming after anyone here, or trying to be rude or mean. Just showing the truth.

You know there is very little difference between threatening to whip out the Bible Hammer and actually doing so. Don't be milquetoast. If you have something to say, say it. Do not hide behind politeness.

One more question...if the Bible isn't true how can you account for all of the prophets who described the arrival of the Messiah? If it isn't true, then wouldn't that discredit Jesus all together? Wouldn't it? Just a question. And faith is believing in God, that what He has given us to lead our lives upon is His true and holy word.

There is a real, meaningful, discernable difference between truth and literal truth. I believe the Bible reveals God's Truth. I do not believe that the Bible conveys said Truth through a black & white, literal delivery of its words. I have very good reasons to believe this and view the Bible this way.

Your final sentence presents a problem for me, since it can be interpreted more than one way. But the context of your post leads me to understand that what you are saying is that in order to have faith in God one must accept the Bible as literal truth. I am wrong on this? Because with a few adjustments to puncuation and capitalization I can get your final statement to mean something completely different. So my question is genuine. Have I interpreted you correctly?

For now know that I disagree you with your stance. One who has faith in God has exactly that, a belief placed in trust into the hands of the Almighty Creator. I give my faith freely to God. I am blessed by God in many ways. Among His blessings are the scriptures collected in the Bible, a rational thinking mind and the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit, that light of God that dwells within me and all people. Why, I ask, would I acknowledge just one of God's blessings to me over the other two?

 

[gluadys]

One more question...if the Bible isn't true :

Why do you even ask that question here? Everybody in this section of the forum does believe the bible is true. Its a requirement for posting here.

We may have different interpretations of the bible, but stop equating that with believing that the bible isn't true. That is not the case.

 

[vossler]

Please realize that to me there is a significant difference between believing in the revealed truth of the Bible and believing in the literal delivery of the Bible. Whether or not you read the Bible literally, I think it has but one Will and one Truth.

I couldn't agree more!

However, if you choose to read the Bible as literal truth, then I think you are not allowing any room for science and any experiential learning that takes place from being in relationship with Creation. To me that leaves out too much of the picture.

What this leaves out of the picture is man and this is most certainly a good thing to leave out.

 

[vossler]

However, we do need to science to help us experience and reveal the wonders of God's on-going miracle and to join Him as co-creators in it. We are afterall charged with beings its stewards. What is rational in denying ourselves the best possible tools for being the best possible stewards? Or do you not think that this job is so important?

Out of curiosity, just where do you establish or come up with the idea that we are co-creators with God?

Stewards yes, creators, hardly!

 

[Yelena]

If your a real christian and you read the bible you should know that god created the hevens and the earth Genesis 1:1

 

[ebia]

If your a real christian and you read the bible you should know that god created the hevens and the earth Genesis 1:1

Who in this thread has suggested otherwise?

 

[chaoschristian]

If your a real christian and you read the bible you should know that god created the hevens and the earth Genesis 1:1

Please, please, please, please tell me that you are not inferring that anyone who does not read the Bible as you read it is not a REAL Christian.

That, Yelena, is one of the classic uses of the Bible Hammer.

 

[SBG]

My thoughts:

Creation is interpretated by man.

Scripture is interpretated by man.

Creation is ambigious about what it is saying thus allowing any type of interpretation to be made.

Scripture is mostly clear about what it is saying thus allowing a limited interpretation.

Science is Godly and unGodly man's creation.
Scripture is holy men's writings.

What we have is Scripture that was written by holy men of God and because it is written word, it allows for a limited interpretation. Creation is ambigious and science is man's creation to study Creation which combined can lead to any type of interpretation one chooses.

Science doesn't seek the Holy Spirit for guidance. A true follower of Christ seeks the Holy Spirit for guidance in interpreting the Bible. By default, science chooses to not allow for an intelligent designer because it assumes that any type of intelligent design assumes religion. Yet, scientific studies have been brought forth to assert that aliens are the creators of this earth and all that it is in it.

Science has its place, but its place is not within beliefs of God or how God works. That includes how God created. Science shouldn't be studying that. It can make observations of what God has done, but not how God works. That is a belief that cannot be proven, but only accepted by faith. In my opinion, science has over stepped its bounds when studying where we and this universe came from. It has no real way of observing the beginning of all things, it can only make guesses on what it sees today and assumes that it was the same yesterday.

The beginning of creation that no one saw or observed, cannot be studied by science, but can be accepted by faith, which falls under religion. Since science has started studying something that is accepted by faith, it has made itself a type of religion when concerning origins.

When someone accepts what science has to say about origins they are doing so by faith alone. For science cannot observe the beginning, it cannot repeat the beginnning, and it cannot test the beginning.

It is my assertion that since science has decided to study origins, it has placed itself as a religion of its own. This religion contradicts my understanding of the Bible's teaching on origins, therefore the scientific study of origins is rejected by me.

I don't believe in Genesis 1-3 or the Bible. I believe in Jesus Christ, who through the Holy Spirit inspired the Bible, therefore I believe what the Bible says, not in the Bible. Of course we all believe in the Bible, we just don't agree on what the Bible is saying. That has always been the case since the beginning of the world. Man has always chosen to not believe what God has to say, especially when He used prophets to preach His message. Today is no different then the days of old.

So, why get upset about it? Why not praise God for the strife we have to make our faith stronger? If one chooses to believe Sciences message of faith about origins, so be it. I will glorify God regardless for the love, mercy and grace He has shown me.