Beliefs about the Afterlife

[PaladinValer]

Of course, because we set fire to him after the last silly episode.

Straw Men fallacies don't disappear unless they are corrected or retracted.

I do note that none of the real substance of my replies is being addressed. Is there any?

 

[Smoky]

"As for your last question, it is based on the presupposition that my comment had anything to do with merit"

Thanks for clearing that up. It just seems that being "judged worthy" would mean a person has enough merit to be worthy, which would be the opposite of grace. I don't think you meant that.

 

[everbecoming2007]

"As for your last question, it is based on the presupposition that my comment had anything to do with merit"

Thanks for clearing that up. It just seems that being "judged worthy" would mean a person has enough merit to be worthy, which would be the opposite of grace. I don't think you meant that.

We are rewarded for our deeds, good and bad, yet even our good deeds are attributable to grace and any reward of them is ultimately a gift of grace -- all good things come from God. But so does evil.

 

[Smoky]

"all good things come from God. But so does evil."

How can God punish evil if He is the author of it?

 

[Basil the Great]

As much as I like the view of the Swiss Catholic theologian Hans Urs Von Balthasar, that is permissible to hope that all will be saved, his teaching runs counter to the bulk of Christian tradition and certainly to the teachings contained in the Athanasian Creed.

 

[everbecoming2007]

"all good things come from God. But so does evil."

How can God punish evil if He is the author of it?

St. Paul says this is a mystery that is beyond our understanding, that the depths of God's ways are beyond comprehension in Romans. God has his purposes and he works through both good and evil to accomplish them in the plan of redemption when all creation shall be reconciled.

 

[everbecoming2007]

As much as I like the view of the Swiss Catholic theologian Hans Urs Von Balthasar, that is permissible to hope that all will be saved, his teaching runs counter to the bulk of Christian tradition and certainly to the teachings contained in the Athanasian Creed.

Perhaps, but the Athanasian Creed, though it has a wonderful description of the Trinity, is not really an ecumenical Creed. Really, only the Nicene Creed is accepted by all branches of the Church and is what I consider the ecumenical Creed, though the Apostles Creed is orthodox and contains nothing contrary to the Scriptures or the Nicene Creed.

From ancient times there have always been those who hoped for universal salvation and prayed for it. And we do pray for all sorts and conditions of men and for their salvation. It is prudent to pray that all may be saved since we do not know the destiny of any one soul -- so pray for them all.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't see what's wrong with believing in universal reconciliation. It was certainly the belief of many in the early Church, and if one reads the Bible carefully, one can see that this concept doesn't contradict the spirit of many passages.

Conditional mortality, "soul sleep", is something I find hard to reconcile with Scriptures. Nevertheless, there are probably a handful of Anglicans that believe it, but I'm guessing most don't.

 

[everbecoming2007]

I don't see what's wrong with believing in universal reconciliation. It was certainly the belief of many in the early Church, and if one reads the Bible carefully, one can see that this concept doesn't contradict the spirit of many passages.

Conditional mortality, "soul sleep", is something I find hard to reconcile with Scriptures. Nevertheless, there are probably a handful of Anglicans that believe it, but I'm guessing most don't.

Many passages of scripture do have universalist connotations, but I am hesitant to declare it as a certain belief I hold, that is, to make it a dogma -- the scriptures do warn of eternal death as though it is a real possibility and I have thought of situations even in the physical universe that resemble it, making the possibility of eternal damnation seem more real to me. Universal salvation is a hope that I pray for, however.

I don't buy soul sleep. I've never met a Protestant of any stripe, Pentecostal, Baptist, Anglican, etc. that ever believed that, although I don't know how many of them really held all the beliefs of their denominational background: most Protestants I've known have folk beliefs about the afterlife, the idea that humans become angels at death and become our guardians, and some even believe in reincarnation as a possibility.

Scriptures that come to mind are Jesus' descending into hell and preaching to the souls in hades, or Moses and Elijah in an appearance to Jesus on the mountain, Jesus' words to the thief that he would be with Christ in paradise, the martyrs in heaven in Revelation and their prayers, even the story about the spirit of Samuel being summoned by a medium for Saul, although that last passage may be more representative of the idea of sheol where souls are indeed "asleep" or phantoms of their former selves.

Most passages that would seem to support soul sleep I would think come from parts of the Old Testament before there was a developed afterlife concept in Judaism. In Daniel that concept becomes a little more developed, but even then there is barely mention of it. In the New Testament we see that the Sadduces did not believe in a resurrection, Acts 23:8 going so far as to say they did not believe in angels or spirits, but the Pharisees did. But in the New Testament Christians came to fully believe in the resurrection and afterlife, 1 Peter 3:19 even mentioning that Jesus preached to the imprisoned souls after He died.

 

[PaladinValer]

I don't see what's wrong with believing in universal reconciliation. It was certainly the belief of many in the early Church, and if one reads the Bible carefully, one can see that this concept doesn't contradict the spirit of many passages.

The fact that Jesus speaks of wailing and gnashing of teeth, and the number of unrepentant people who visibly die forsaking Christ, is testament that there will be those who will experience hell.

That's hard for many to stomach, but God's Justice is intermingled with God's Love. If people don't want to experience heaven, He won't make them. If people want to reject Him most visibly, He will allow them. Hell is real, and there are many experiencing its foretaste even now.

Can God surprise us? Yes. However, in actuality, Christianity has been pretty clear historically. Universalism was condemned in Ecumenical Council, so it is heretical.

Conditional mortality, "soul sleep", is something I find hard to reconcile with Scriptures. Nevertheless, there are probably a handful of Anglicans that believe it, but I'm guessing most don't.

In the draft version of the 39 Articles, there were the 42, one of which is pretty clear on that. Another was clear against Universalism.

 

[everbecoming2007]

The fact that Jesus speaks of wailing and gnashing of teeth, and the number of unrepentant people who visibly die forsaking Christ, is testament that there will be those who will experience hell.

That's hard for many to stomach, but God's Justice is intermingled with God's Love. If people don't want to experience heaven, He won't make them. If people want to reject Him most visibly, He will allow them. Hell is real, and there are many experiencing its foretaste even now.

Can God surprise us? Yes. However, in actuality, Christianity has been pretty clear historically. Universalism was condemned in Ecumenical Council, so it is heretical.



In the draft version of the 39 Articles, there were the 42, one of which is pretty clear on that. Another was clear against Universalism.

If Universalism is outright heretical, then why pray or hope for it or acknowledge that God may surprise us? Or do you simply mean that it is heretical to affirm that Universalism is certain? There is a distinction.

Also, I am not sure that the fifth ecumenical council condemned any and all forms of Universalism, but possibly only a distinct brand attributed to Origen, whether Origen really held the views condemned or not. Not that there is any consensus amongst Anglicans as to whether the fifth council is ecumenical anyway.

 

[ebia]

If Universalism is outright heretical, then why pray or hope for it or acknowledge that God may surprise us? Or do you simply mean that it is heretical to affirm that Universalism is certain? There is a distinction.

Also, I am not sure that the fifth ecumenical council condemned any and all forms of Universalism, but possibly only a distinct brand attributed to Origen, whether Origen really held the views condemned or not. Not that there is any consensus amongst Anglicans as to whether the fifth council is ecumenical anyway.

It's heretical to be certain that God will save everybody.
It is permissible to hope that he may.

Many are certain that he won't.

 

[PaladinValer]

If Universalism is outright heretical, then why pray or hope for it or acknowledge that God may surprise us? Or do you simply mean that it is heretical to affirm that Universalism is certain? There is a distinction.

Please read my reply to poster graceandpeace. My posts have already addressed this.

Also, I am not sure that the fifth ecumenical council condemned any and all forms of Universalism, but possibly only a distinct brand attributed to Origen, whether Origen really held the views condemned or not. Not that there is any consensus amongst Anglicans as to whether the fifth council is ecumenical anyway.

Whether Origen believed it or not is inconsequential to the fact that the belief itself is condemned. Furthermore, the West long considered the remaining three Councils as doing with the consequences of the earlier four, mostly I would guess because no further creed came from them or were written from them.

And for the record, I too think Origen was largely misunderstood, although again, the mischaracture of his belief on Universalism is out of the question.

 

[Basil the Great]

Perhaps, but the Athanasian Creed, though it has a wonderful description of the Trinity, is not really an ecumenical Creed. Really, only the Nicene Creed is accepted by all branches of the Church and is what I consider the ecumenical Creed, though the Apostles Creed is orthodox and contains nothing contrary to the Scriptures or the Nicene Creed.

From ancient times there have always been those who hoped for universal salvation and prayed for it. And we do pray for all sorts and conditions of men and for their salvation. It is prudent to pray that all may be saved since we do not know the destiny of any one soul -- so pray for them all.

I don't know how many Christians really believe in the entire Athanasian Creed anymore? Not only does it teach eternal punishment, but it says that those who do not believe in eternal punishment are themselves lost. This would appear to directly contradict the teaching that it is permissible to hope for all to be saved. A discussion of this creed reminds me of an incident that happened 20-25 years ago. I attended a Lutheran service in the suburbs of a major U.S. city. The Athanasian Creed was recited that morning and there were probably 150-200 in attendance. When we came to the end of the creed, to the part that refers to those who do not believe in eternal punishment being lost, virtually the entire congregation went silent and I am NOT kidding! Only the pastor and a very few others recited that line. I am glad to say that I was not among the few. Even though I admit that eternal punishment is a real possibility, I cannot believe that God would damn someone simply for not professing said belief himself.

 

[RileyG]

We know, from Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition, that upon biological death, a person's soul departs for sheol/hades, which is where all souls go to await the resurrection and Christ's Second Advent. Our bodies go to the dust. There, our souls shall experience a foretaste of heaven or hell, given particular judgment.

Upon Jesus' return, the trumpet shall sound and the Kingdom of Heaven and our material plane shall be one. Then the Resurrection of the Dead occurs: our souls return to our resurrected and reconstituted bodies, healed, transfigured, and perfected, and we become actual persons again. Then these who were once dead and those who were still living at the time, who shall presumably healed, transfigured, and perfected as well, shall be given Last Judgment. Those judged worthy by the Lamb shall experience heaven and those not judged worthy shall experience hell.

I am confused. So Anglicans believe no one is in heaven or hell yet until the 2nd coming? Forgive, my ignorance.

 

[RileyG]

The fact that Jesus speaks of wailing and gnashing of teeth, and the number of unrepentant people who visibly die forsaking Christ, is testament that there will be those who will experience hell.

That's hard for many to stomach, but God's Justice is intermingled with God's Love. If people don't want to experience heaven, He won't make them. If people want to reject Him most visibly, He will allow them. Hell is real, and there are many experiencing its foretaste even now.

Can God surprise us? Yes. However, in actuality, Christianity has been pretty clear historically. Universalism was condemned in Ecumenical Council, so it is heretical.



In the draft version of the 39 Articles, there were the 42, one of which is pretty clear on that. Another was clear against Universalism.

Thank You for this post. Furthermore, do ANY Christians who profess the Nicene Creed believe in Universalism? I am not aware of any....

 

[RileyG]

I mean "judged" and leave it at that. I don't dare to presume how God will judge, only that He will.



Is hell "endless torment"? Well, we need to define first endless torment before I can give an honest answer.

Is anything else heresy? Well, anything that denies the theology found in the Apostles' Creed when combined with that Jesus says to St. Dismas (the Repentant Thief) would seem to be clearly unorthodox.

What do I mean by this? Well, what did He say? "Today you will be with me in paradise". Well, paradise in 1st century ce Jewish and Christian theology was the "good half" of sheol; it was also known as Abraham's Bosom, and we know this from extrabiblical writing; the historical record of the time. Other writings, including those of the Bible, show this as well, like the Parable of Dives (the Rich Man) and Lazarus. Since Jesus had not ascended, where did He go? To the immediate afterlife, where he took Dismas, Abraham, and all the righteous dead with Him. The Gospel even said that people had been raised when Jesus passed.

This shows what happens when we die: there's NO immediate heaven or hell. And the Apostles' Creed says that we go to "infernos", which isn't hell, but hades. And since there is no heaven or hell under after the Judgment, and no Judgment until after the Resurrection, and no Resurrection until Christ's Second Advent (according to the Nicene Creed), then it is logical to conclude that our souls go to sheol/hades and will be raised upon the resurrected to our reconstituted bodies when Christ comes again, and then we shall be Judged and then experience either heaven or hell.

As for your last question, it is based on the presupposition that my comment had anything to do with merit. All my post says is that there will be Judgment, which is found throughout the Holy Writ. So I don't see how that is at all questionable.

Ok. Forgive me, I did not read this post until now.

So do the dead experience anything in sheol? Isn't Sheol just a shadowy place of the dead? No one is experiencing heaven or hell in Anglican theology- yet? Correct?

Thanks

 

[ebia]

I am confused. So Anglicans believe no one is in heaven or hell yet until the 2nd coming? Forgive, my ignorance.

Kind of depends what one means by "heaven", or "hell".

The ultimate hope is for, and only makes sense in, the complete restoration of all creation and the reuniting of heaven and earth.

Talk of people already in heaven almost inevitably looses all sense of that two stage reality, and reduces the hope to going to some non-earthly existence for eternity.

 

[RileyG]

Kind of depends what one means by "heaven", or "hell".

The ultimate hope is for, and only makes sense in, the complete restoration of all creation and the reuniting of heaven and earth.

Talk of people already in heaven almost inevitably looses all sense of that two stage reality, and reduces the hope to going to some non-earthly existence for eternity.

Ok. Thanks.

So, do the [Anglicans] the departed people are conscious of anything? Or is there "Soul sleep" until the resurrection?

 

[ebia]

Ok. Thanks.

So, do the [Anglicans] the departed people are conscious of anything? Or is there "Soul sleep" until the resurrection?

I wouldnt care to answer for anglicans generally.

Mostly what I would want to say is that scripture is very interested in the final resurrection and not very interested in the details between death and then.
Modern christianity has pretty much forgotten about the resurrection and become obsessed with what happens when you die.