Being Messianic in the Christian Churches

[Meowzltov]

But you don't promote Torah observance as the members of the MJ forum do, that is why you are given more 'grace'. As long as you promote no Torah for gentiles you will be welcome everywhere, most believe differently here.

I understand what you are saying, but two things:

• Because I do promote Torah observance for Jews, I'm still a "legalist" and "works" teacher in their eyes.
• I also teach that Gentiles are under the Noahide laws, which is still highly offensive to the "grace alone" crowd.

It makes me offensive to Frog, Bug, and the rest.

 

[Lulav]

I understand what you are saying, but two things:

• Because I do promote Torah observance for Jews, I'm still a "legalist" and "works" teacher in their eyes.
• I also teach that Gentiles are under the Noahide laws, which is still highly offensive to the "grace alone" crowd.

It makes me offensive to Frog, Bug, and the rest.

No offense, It's just a game with those too, blinded by their own 'all knowing' truth when they don't even know the basics. Sad really.

 

[Meowzltov]

the Law of Sin and Death

HUH? Is that what you call the Torah?

 

[BukiRob]

HUH? Is that what you call the Torah?

Oh my.. please read. Where did I say that? Oy Vie!

Natural man in his FALLEN STATE IS MARRIED TO THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

The Torah is the TREE OF LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[visionary]

Many believe that Gentiles get Torah light, while the Jews get it in the original formula. We are not to consume a mixed wine, a watered down wine, nor a wine left too long which turns to vineage, which the Lord finds all abominable to His palate. His wine is well aged found in new wineskins revealing its bouquet of His essence.

 

[BukiRob]

Many believe that Gentiles get Torah light, while the Jews get it in the original formula. We are not to consume a mixed wine, a watered down wine, nor a wine left too long which turns to vineage, which the Lord finds all abominable to His palate. His wine is well aged found in new wineskins revealing its bouquet of His essence.

Yep 1 Torah for all mankind same for the Jew and the goyim who is sojourning with them

 

[Ken Rank]

I also teach that Gentiles are under the Noahide laws, which is still highly offensive to the "grace alone" crowd.

This I don't get... can't agree with, respectfully of course. "Noachide Laws" are a rabbinic invention that keeps people out of the covenant. Deut. 4:13 states, "He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets." Not 7 laws not even found in Torah, but the 10 words... and they were given to Israel AND the stranger/foreigner with them. If you belong to the God of Israel, whether Jew or not... we follow His commands. I am not Jewish, but I do belong to the God of Israel and the Feasts, for example... are not Jewish Feasts, God said "these are MY feasts." So, I do them... firmly convinced and convicted that I should. For me to walk in some non-Torah based "Noachide laws" would be me walking away from covenant.

 

[visionary]

TO walk in Noahide laws as a believer in Yeshua is inviting yourself to self condemnation as it says within the Noahide group, beheading is the only cure for believing in Yeshua.

 

[Meowzltov]

This I don't get... can't agree with, respectfully of course. "Noachide Laws" are a rabbinic invention that keeps people out of the covenant. Deut. 4:13 states, "He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets." Not 7 laws not even found in Torah, but the 10 words... and they were given to Israel AND the stranger/foreigner with them. If you belong to the God of Israel, whether Jew or not... we follow His commands. I am not Jewish, but I do belong to the God of Israel and the Feasts, for example... are not Jewish Feasts, God said "these are MY feasts." So, I do them... firmly convinced and convicted that I should. For me to walk in some non-Torah based "Noachide laws" would be me walking away from covenant.

The word for stranger/foreigner is GER, which is better translated as proselyte or convert -- former gentiles which had become israelites.
We'll have to agree to disagree agreeably

 

[Ken Rank]

The word for stranger/foreigner is GER, which is better translated as proselyte or convert -- former gentiles which had become israelites.
We'll have to agree to disagree agreeably

We can disagree, but this is one area I humbly and respectfully suggest you look at from outside your current paradigm. The ger who came out of Egypt with Israel were to be treated as if native born, were to assimiliate into the tribes they travel with, and the Torah was:

Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is home born, and unto the stranger (GER) that sojourneth among you.

One law.... if the covenant is the 10 words as per Deut. 4:13, then the Noachide laws, which don't have all 10, are a different law and stand against this commandment pasted above. The Noachide laws are a rabbinic invention... and while I respect and glean from many things they have shared, I reject much as well. What they determine is not "Torah."

Shabbat Shalom!
Ken

 

[Lulav]

The word for stranger/foreigner is GER, which is better translated as proselyte or convert -- former gentiles which had become israelites.
We'll have to agree to disagree agreeably

There was no Judaism when we left Egypt, therefore there could not possibly be any proselytes to it. A mixed multitude went with them, these are the strangers.

Abraham was the first to say this, among the Canaanites

I [am] a stranger and a sojourner with you:

Ger meaning alien, and toshab means to live among another people.

Abraham certainly was not a proselyte to heathenism nor was he a convert.

There was nothing written about when we left that those who were not of the 12 tribes could not leave also without converting, which as I said there was nothing to convert to. At the mountain they joined themselves to Israel and were integrated into the tribes, just as the later sons of Joseph who came from an Egyptian mother.

 

[Meowzltov]

The ger who came out of Egypt with Israel were to be treated as if native born

Yes, these gerim (converts) became part of Israel and were no longer gentiles.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I don't mind people disagreeing with me usually, but not when facts are not in question. There is no doubt where the CC stands on this and so you are misrepresenting the CC, my friend. Your ideas are out of date. I also find it odd that you would think you understand Catholicism better than I do, a Catholic who has made it a point to investigate my faith.

"Your ideas are out of date."

I think it is strange that you react this way, when the facts are what they are. Catholicism does not promote Torah. No pope or priest in that church keeps or teaches Torah. None of the Catholics I know personally keep Torah. In fact they consider Torah and Catholicism to be at odds with each other. You're the only Catholic I know that apparently thinks differently. Nobody is trying to make you feel bad, but truth is truth.

I too have a personal history, experience and relationship with Catholicism, which would be obvious to you if you actually read my posts. In this thread, I have gotten the distinct impression that you haven't actually been reading my posts before replying to them. Also I get the sense you want to "win the argument" which makes it difficult to talk to you.

 

[Ken Rank]

Yes, these gerim (converts) became part of Israel and were no longer gentiles.

Exactly, which is why Paul said we WERE gentiles (pagans), WERE without hope, WERE without God, WERE not partakers of he covenants of hope and WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel. But through Messiah, he said, "You are NOW fellow citizens." So if I am a fellow citizen, not a replacement but a fellow citizen, then I can't stand on the outside of the covenant looking in using the Noachide laws because they CONTINUE to keep me out of of covenant because the covenant is the 10 Words (Deut 4:13), not the Rabbinic Noachide 7. I was a ger to Israel, I am now part of Israel... therefore, Father has the same expectations of me. One law for Israel and the ger with them!

 

[Ken Rank]

There was no Judaism when we left Egypt, therefore there could not possibly be any proselytes to it. A mixed multitude went with them, these are the strangers.

No Judaism, but an Israel. Judaism is not all of Israel, Israel has many faces, colors, and tongues. When the NT was written, the lost sheep were still... pretty much are still... in the nations. The "face of Israel" was Judah, thus we have in John a passage that calls Passover "a feast of the Jews." It is never called that in Torah, it is called "The feasts of the LORD" of He Himself called it, "My feasts." They are for ALL of Israel, not just the Jews. However, the only visible facet of Israel at that time was Judaism... and thus most all today are raised in a paradigm that see Israel and Judah or Jewish or Judaism as the same words. You're part of the House of Judah, you're the older brother who remained in covenant (stayed on the farm with Father) in the parable of the prodigal son... I am the wayward son who was lost in the nations and without hope!

Brakhot!
Ken

 

[Hoshiyya]

Many believe that Gentiles get Torah light, while the Jews get it in the original formula. We are not to consume a mixed wine, a watered down wine, nor a wine left too long which turns to vineage, which the Lord finds all abominable to His palate. His wine is well aged found in new wineskins revealing its bouquet of His essence.

Biblically, unmixed wine is a symbol of his wrath, a cup he gives to the enemy nations/armies who attack Jerusalem - but I do like the intention behind your symbolism.

"Many believe that Gentiles get Torah light"

EVERYBODY gets Torah light, initially, but everyone has the chance to mature and graduate to higher levels of Torah-understanding and Torah-application.

This is the principle of line upon line; milk for the toothless child and then meat for those with teeth.

 

[Ken Rank]

TO walk in Noahide laws as a believer in Yeshua is inviting yourself to self condemnation as it says within the Noahide group, beheading is the only cure for believing in Yeshua.

Hebrew 31:31 speaks of a new covenant. But it is not new, it is the same covenant renewed with changes. No longer Torah on stone per se, but rather, Torah on the heart and mind as written directly by God Himself. Renewed, the Hebrew word is chadashah, the adjective form of a word that means, "to renew." The verse is quoted in Hebrews 8:8 and again we see the word "new." But there the difference is more striking because Greek has two words that are often translated as new but there is a very obvious distinction. Kainos means "new in regards to freshness" whereas nehos means "new in regards to age." A brand new 2015 car is nehos... but a 1968 Mustang that has been rehauled and made to look new is a kainos car. EVERYTIME in the NT (save for once) where we see the word "new" before the word "covenant," it is kainos... Hebrews 8:8 is a kainos covenant... a renewed covenant.

God made an everlasting covenant (see Psalm 105:8-10) and it was been, well, is being, renewed through Yeshua's work. If we choose the Noachide laws, as you rightly state, we are condemning ourselves because we will then be standing on the outside looking in at the ONLY covenant that matters... the everlasting covenant renewed by Yeshua.

 

[BukiRob]

No Judaism, but an Israel. Judaism is not all of Israel, Israel has many faces, colors, and tongues. When the NT was written, the lost sheep were still... pretty much are still... in the nations. The "face of Israel" was Judah, thus we have in John a passage that calls Passover "a feast of the Jews." It is never called that in Torah, it is called "The feasts of the LORD" of He Himself called it, "My feasts." They are for ALL of Israel, not just the Jews. However, the only visible facet of Israel at that time was Judaism... and thus most all today are raised in a paradigm that see Israel and Judah or Jewish or Judaism as the same words. You're part of the House of Judah, you're the older brother who remained in covenant (stayed on the farm with Father) in the parable of the prodigal son... I am the wayward son who was lost in the nations and without hope!

Brakhot!
Ken

Likewise we see this same concept presented in the Rich man parable. The Rich man is an unbelieving Israelite and Lazarus is the Gentile believer begging for scraps. We know this because the Rich man calls Abraham FATHER Abraham and Abraham calls him son.

In the chapter previous to the Parable of the Rich man we see the Canaanite woman calling repeatedly to Yeshua CALLING HIM SON OF DAVID. This woman KNEW Yeshua was the Messiah. So great was her faith that even when the Apostles tried to drive her a way she kept calling to him. Even Messiah himself gives her a fairly strong rebuke... He tells her " I was not sent except to the lost sheep of Israel." She was undeterred as she fell at his feet worshiping him. Then Yeshua says to her " It is not good to take the children's bread and feed it to the little dogs"

Amazingly she is still undeterred because she absolutely knew that Yeshua was the Messiah and says to him " “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.” 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is a parable (not a literal event) illustrating the blindness of the unbelieving Jew and the gentile elect (as seen in the REAL event by the gentile woman) Abraham explains to the Rich man that during his life he had all the good things while Lazarus (the gentile) had only the evil things in life. The good things is the Light of Torah. The evil things are in darkness. Even Lazarus begged for SCRAPS (this is a direct reference to what the Canaanite woman said to Yeshua in the previous chapter)

 

[Hoshiyya]

Interesting correlation of those two stories.

Yeah it is insane how many people can't accept that LATRM is not a literal representation of the afterlife.
It is comparable to anecdotes of "peter by the pearly gates", or Dante, not really doctrine.

I personally would not specify "gentile elect", since the elect actually come from three groups:
1. Israelites (today this means Jews),
2. Israelites-scattered-among-nations,
3. and actual gentiles.

 

[Ken Rank]

So great was her faith that even when the Apostles tried to drive her a way she kept calling to him. Even Messiah himself gives her a fairly strong rebuke... He tells her " I was not sent except to the lost sheep of Israel." She was undeterred as she fell at his feet worshiping him. Then Yeshua says to her " It is not good to take the children's bread and feed it to the little dogs"

I appreciate your whole post Rob but this part really jumped out because, quite frankly, I hadn't considered it before. The whole point of the vision Peter had was of course NOT about food but people. The rule of the day, the halacha, was that anyone not Jewish was unclean and thus unworthy and we see this when the Apostles try to push her away. She clings to the messiah of Israel, as I do not being Jewish, and her faith... my faith... is then sufficient and she and I become part of the same family. No replacement theology with sadly is what some Messianic Jews hear when I say, "I am part of Israel," but I am part of Israel.