How about I'll enjoy my ASSURANCE in what I believe and have proven to be what I believe is the truth, and you enjoy the ARROGANCE of believing and defending what I believe to be a lie.
What do you say happened in Acts 10 with Cornelius? Peter didn't lay hands. "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word." (Acts 10:44) Those with Peter and Peter recognized this as God pouring out the girt of the Holy Ghost on the gentiles (Acts 10:45) Then, they were baptized.
I know those are deep water teachings J4C. I can only say, buy the book Word Studies on the Holy Spirit by EW Bullinger if you really want to plumb the depths. It was written over a hundred years ago and is still being printed. I will just share a Forward written in that book. A book which I bought over 20 years ago;
"FORWARD The emphasis in recent years on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit has helped to produce a great number of books on that subject. Some of these books are immature and will not last. Their theology (to borrow a phrase from P.T. Forsyth) is “like a bad photograph-over-exposed and under-developed.” But a few books have made a definite contribution to the subject and will surely last. Word Studies on the Holy Spirit is one of the older works that has had a steady ministry and is sure to last.
WARREN W. WIERSBE"
[FYI Warren Wiersbe was born 1929, a former pastor of Moody Church as well as an author of over 160 books]
I will warn you, this isn't a cookie eater's book. You'll have to put on your 'big boy/girl pants' to get through it, I believe.
And I'm going to share one short summarizing paragraph to give you just a peek at where I've been led to come from, in this 200 page book. Read the following sentence; Oh, that's a nasty cut you have, the doctor is in his office, let's have him doctor it up for you.
Which 'doctor' in this sentence is a person and which doctor is an action FROM that person? It is the presence of a 'definite article', the word THE. In a Greek Interlinear bible you read a literal translation of the Greek sentences above, and all he English worded sentences of an English translation below it. You will find that the transliterated 'GREEK worded sentence', which is above the KJV sentence below it, that the translators ADD a the in brackets [the], changing the sentence to mean the person of the Holy Spirit, when it always meant action/power released FROM the Holy Spirit. Bullinger's book, as well as his KJV Companion Study Bible, (which is also still in print after a hundred years) both state that translators capitalized the word holy spirit or spirit INCORRECTLY 52 times in the New Testament. That my brother has led to a whole lot of the dumb theology that the 'spiritually gifted' tongue talkers have, as well as the "ungifted" non tongue talkers. That's why I challenge both sides when I believe they're wrong. And the harder they fight to defend what I USED TO ALSO BELIEVE and had to re-think through, the harder I slap back. Just like Jesus slapped the religious pharisees of his day who thought they knew better than Jesus. Am I Jesus? NO! Am I trying to offend? No, I'm trying to enlighten. Do I intentionally try to offend? No! Do they intentionally take an offense? All the time.
When I was 20 years old in the Lord, I'd have said the same thing you just said. All I can say is, you have maintained an attitude of disagreement with me that I respect. So far anyway.
I understand your dilemma. It is mine also. I skip over many posts here too. Usually I do so because I've already gone around with them many times in the past. They run every time they can't win but they never change when they come back. And, as you've seen, I also won't line up with everyone on 'our side', and agree to back them, just because it's 'our doctrinal POV against theirs'. Let US be iron sharpening iron and not sparks flying from swords. I do try to pursue peace with all men first, even as I believe you and I still have.
Exactly, which proves today the Holy Spirit can fall on us without the "laying on of hands." Some want to put the Spirit in a box, but even Jesus didn't heal the same each time so we wouldn't look for "formulas." Also, against the mandate that you must be baptized in water in order to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
It is the Spirit that makes us dead to sin, to me that is the evidence that one has the Spirit. And Peter says that water baptism is in response to a clear conscience, meaning they aren't sinning, so, to me, the Spirit must come first to already have a clear conscience.
Still persevering in prayer for youThe Church was given those gifts in the time when the Apostles were still alive, and there were real prophets also that could judge the utterances being made, but now have the more sure word of the scriptures, so the Holy Spirit reserves himself to speaking thru them directly today!
After Philip preached men and women got born again and baptized in water. However, Peter and John went down later and got them baptized with the Spirit.What on earth does that mean? Are you cutting down someone used mightily of God, in Scripture, now? Please tell me that you weren't.
Yes, the Baptism into Christ is the One Baptism which saves but there's another Baptism which believers need and that glorious baptism empowers us....I agree. But there are additional fillings for additional gifts for the profit of all, not just for the believer as in Mark 16:16-18, but for the profit of the Church in 1 Corinthians 12.
Understand?
Paul said understanding what is said is the basis for edification. And that those who spoke in tongues edified only themselves (understood), unless they interpreted so others could understand and be edified. So those who spoke understood what they said. He also said their understanding of what they said would remain unfruitful unless they pray with the understanding so those who occupy the room of the unlearned could say "amen" at their giving of thanks.For what purpose is the gift of the interpretation of tongues, if the tongues speakers know what they are saying?
1 Corinthians 14:13
For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.
1 Corinthians 14:27-28
If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
So you understand that the interpretation of tongues does not come automatically, simply because a person is speaking in tongues. How can you say that tongues speakers know what they are saying?Paul said understanding what is said is the basis for edification. And that those who spoke in tongues edified only themselves (understood), unless they interpreted so others could understand and be edified. So those who spoke understood what they said. He also said their understanding of what they said would remain unfruitful unless they pray with the understanding so those who occupy the room of the unlearned could say "amen" at their giving of thanks.
After Philip preached men and women got born again and baptized in water. However, Peter and John went down later and got them baptized with the Spirit.
All tongue speakers understood what they were saying. But they needed to interpret the information so others could share. Like we interpret a passage of scripture for others.So you understand that the interpretation of tongues does not come automatically, simply because a person is speaking in tongues. How can you say that tongues speakers know what they are saying?
1 Corinthians 12:30
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
Thanks for the response. This is interesting. You and I have different views on this.All tongue speakers understood what they were saying. But they needed to interpret the information so others could share. Like we interpret a passage of scripture for others.
I learned how to speak in tongues. But this led me to question the experience since it was always spontaneous the first time with unsuspecting subjects. People get a buzz from speaking in tongues today and assume it is the Holy Spirit. But I think the same effect comes from anything that stimulates our endorphins. Yelling at the top of our lungs. Laughter etc.Thanks for the response. This is interesting. You and I have different views on this.
I think you mentioned that you had spoken in tongues at some point in the past. Did you understand what you were saying? I never do. I can tell that it is a language, not just gibberish, but I have no idea what it means. I get an emotional impression, nothing more. I can tell if it was praise, or warfare, or intercession. Beyond that, nothing.
I may pick up a recognizable word here or there. Many languages are connected to Latin root words. So, appearances of words like "Christos", or "Adonai", "Dios", and such have meaning.
And the gift of the interpretation of tongues was explained to me by someone who manifests the gift. He said it works just like prophecy. (no big surprise there - duh) As in prophecy, God "nudges" the prophet to speak, they open their mouth and speak it forth in obedience to the nudge. They don't know what is coming in advance.
Same with interpretation. God nudges the interpreter, they do not understand what was said, they speak the interpretation in obedience not knowing what will come forth. (and it may be an expansion, or teaching, rather than a strict word-for-word interpretation) Those listening use their discernment to weigh what was said. And accept or reject it accordingly.
What is your understanding of this?
What I gave to you in that posting would be actually what the scriptures teach, as the Charismatics totally misunderstand how the Holy Spirit functions and operates today in us!How can we when Mark 16:16-18 shows that these signs follow those who believe. It doesn't say some of those who believe. You've been taught those are for the apostles. It is only when you get to 1 Corinthians 12 do we find that different gifts are given to different people for the profit of all. Those are for the Church.
I know you can't get your head around this, but that is because of what you've been taught for possibly decades. Only the Spirit can break down that wall. It's not my job.
Charismatics misunderstand the operations of the Holy Spirit for today in key areas, as there is NO second act of Grace evidenced by tongues, no command to seek it, tongues are not a sign of anything, and if one speaks in a tongue, it will be a real unlearned language, not a personal one or gibberish!I learned how to speak in tongues. But this led me to question the experience since it was always spontaneous the first time with unsuspecting subjects. People get a buzz from speaking in tongues today and assume it is the Holy Spirit. But I think the same effect comes from anything that stimulates our endorphins. Yelling at the top of our lungs. Laughter etc.
NT water baptism is always performed upon those who had already received Jesus as Lord and have received the Holy Spirit!I am with you on this. I would also add Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch.
I don't agree with this part, though. I don't believe in total depravity and I believe that the correct word in 1 Pet 3:21 is actually "good" versus "clear". I don't believe the Holy Spirit was in people when John the Baptist was baptizing them. I think the same was true for the Ethiopian eunuch. He realized he needed God and Philip had obviously talked about water baptism and so the eunuch wanted to take care of that.
I had to learn how as well. And had the same questions about it. In the final analysis it seemed that I had been battling unbelief due to my religious upbringing. This needed to be overcome before I had a real breakthrough. I needed to "prime the pump" the first time. After that it wasn't a problem. The experience made a believer out of me.I learned how to speak in tongues. But this led me to question the experience since it was always spontaneous the first time with unsuspecting subjects. People get a buzz from speaking in tongues today and assume it is the Holy Spirit. But I think the same effect comes from anything that stimulates our endorphins. Yelling at the top of our lungs. Laughter etc.
Those who don't speak in tongues enjoy telling us who do, what it is and how and when we should use it. Like a 6 year old telling me how to drive my car. lolWhat I gave to you in that posting would be actually what the scriptures teach, as the Charismatics totally misunderstand how the Holy Spirit functions and operates today in us!
ALWAYS is a big word when it comes to what the Holy Spirit might or might not do. Doesn't play by your rules.NT water baptism is always performed upon those who had already received Jesus as Lord and have received the Holy Spirit!
The gift of tongues would be given by the Holy Spirit, so no learning involved, as either He gave it to us or not!I had to learn how as well. And had the same questions about it. In the final analysis it seemed that I had been battling unbelief due to my religious upbringing. This needed to be overcome before I had a real breakthrough. I needed to "prime the pump" the first time. After that it wasn't a problem. The experience made a believer out of me.
Matthew 13:56-58
Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.” 58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.
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