Beginning of the End?

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lambslove,
This is a better thread you started than I realized. Since everyone is giving an "opinion" to your question; I may as well give my "opinion".
Without taking time to look up scripture; I will just post what Jesus said from memory. The first thing I remember Him saying to the scribes, and pharisee's was that they were looking for a sighn, and there would be no sign given except the sighn of Jonah, which has already been posted here. Then Jesus further stated that not the angels of heaven, or even Himself knew. He gave a list of things that would occur, and some of them have occured. He said if the rich man had known when the theif would come he wold have watched for him. Then He said "I come as a theif in the night." What is going to be the last event to happen before Jesus' return!? I don't think anybody really knows. There are a lot of "Christians" with different ideas. We are seeing a lot of things taking place that make brothers, and sisters in Jesus Christ think it is going to be very soon. That may very well be so; but through-out history there have been things to happen that have caused our brothers, and sisters to think it was the end. That was the case when we turned to the last millennum.

With the love of Jesus Christ.
 
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Susan

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I agree with you. I'm pre-trib, but I am not looking for a sign of the end. I was before and none panned out too well.
Boris Yeltsin the Antichrist? No.
Bill Clinton as the Antichrist? No.
Prince William as the Antichrist? Not yet.
1997 as the last year? No. :o
Y2K as THE END? No. :cry:
And so on.
Also as a random side note while we are looking for the Antichrist so we can say "Look, I've found the one," we are ignoring the millions upon millions who are decieved by "lesser" antichrists (cult leaders) :eek: . These antichrists have recruited followings, and although they cannot take over the world or impose global government, they CAN cause untold spiritual harm (by keeping people away from the true Christ, Jesus) and the all too familiar temporal harm (the Jehovah's Witness deaths from refusal of blood transfusions, the Waco disaster, and numerous acts and planned acts of Islamic and Buddhist terrorism are only a few of the most memorable, all related to lesser antichrists with bad eschatology.) :cry:
My point is that we should not focus on signs of the end as the unbelieving and the weak in faith ask for them (and often get really decieved), but we should focus on Jesus: how to live for Him and what He wants us to do to glorify Him. :bow: :holy:
Just my opinion. :sorry: :)
 
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rainbowprism

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We have been in the end times since Jesus left this earth my friend. I believe in spirtual gifts for today, as many of you do. One Bible verse that points to my belief in the present tense of end times is :

In the last days it will be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,
and your sons and daughters shall prophesy,
and you young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams..... (Acts 2:17)

The book of Acts is not just a summary of what the early church did, it shows us what we have been given authority and commanded to do now and in present days. We have been in the end days for 2000 years, we are living in the kingdom of now (meaning we have gifting etc.) and the not yet (not everything will be done until Christ's return).
 
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Adoniram

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So many ideas and opinions, and all of them equally valid. And everyone seems to agree that no one knows the hour or the day. Which is a good thing because it encourages us to live in constant readiness; to live holy and acceptable unto God because it could be today! The signs are very evident in this time we are living, as many have pointed out.

Permit me to advance a little bit of dispensational theory concerning the end times. I am primarily refering to Daniel's Seventy Week prophecy in his book, chapter 9. Dispensationalists hold that the seventy weeks are a prophecy dealing with Israel, and that each week is a period of seven years. The first 69 weeks pertain to the period in Israel's history starting with "the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem" (vrs. 24-25, Neh. 2) toward the end of the 70 years of Babylonian captivity, up to the 1st coming of the Messiah (vrs. 25). Considering that the decree was issued in 445 BC (generally accepted) and that their years were 360 days in length, the math works this out to be 173,880 days [360 days X 7 years (or 1 week) X 69 weeks], or 32 AD when some say Jesus made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem and presented himself as Messiah. Verse 26 talks about the Messiah being "cut off" or crucified at the end of the 69 weeks.

Dispensational theory holds that at this time, because of Israel's rejection of the Messiah, God suspended his dealings with Israel and postponed the 70th week. At this time, he started ministering through the church and the age of grace began. This age will continue until the rapture and the church is removed. Once the church is gone, God will begin to deal with Israel again and the 70th week will resume.

Dispensationalsts believe that this 70th week corresponds to the 7 year tribulation period. It is generally held that the second part of Dan. 9:26, "...the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" reveals two things. First, the "people" that destroyed the city and the temple were the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. Second, the "prince that shall come" (small p as opposed to capital P, the Messiah, vrs. 25) is the Antichrist. Then we come to verse 27, "And he will confirm the covenant with the many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Here, the "he" refers back to the small p prince, or Antichrist, and "confirm the covenant with the many" refers to a peace treaty that he will sign with Israel at the beginning of the 7 year "week." The "peace" will last 3-1/2 years or until the "overspreading of abominations" which is the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus refers to in Mt 24:15. This comes in the middle of the "week" or tribulation period and introduces the period of "great tribulation". At this time, declaring war on all those who worship God including Israel, the Antichrist will desecrate the temple, which Israel will have rebuilt according to prophecy (and very likely as part of the peace agreement), decreeing that he alone is to be worshiped (Rev. 13). This is when all the things that Christ spoke of in Mt. 24:15-21 will come to pass. After 3-1/2 years of this great tribulation, Christ will return, defeat the Antichrist and his followers, and usher in his kingdom.

So, after the Rapture, at least according to dispensational theory, the "beginning of the end" will start with Israel entering into a peace treaty. This is very interesting considering the state of current affairs over there.

Also very interesting to note is that European Union representatives only last week agreed upon a constitution uniting them into a US type entity, combining economies and militaries. It only has to be ratified by the member states. Could this be the revival of the Roman empire's final state (the ten kings and the little horn) that Daniel speaks of in Dan. 7:23-27? It is comprised of all the lands of the original Roman empire. Perhaps the Antichrist will arise from this entity. This bears watching.

Of course, my glorious hope is to be raptured up to heaven by the time these things happen. But in the mean time, it is so very interesting to watch history come to pass according to God's plan and prophecy, isn't it.

God Bless
 
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Atomagenesis

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We are already in the end times.

The "Rapture"

1 Thess. 4:17 - Paul writes that "we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Many Protestants call this experience the "rapture" (even though the word "rapture" is not found in the Bible). This theory says that Christ will take the faithful up to heaven before the final coming.

John 14:3; 1 Cor. 15:52 - these are other passages that Protestants use to support the rapture experience. The problem with the rapture theory is that is assumes three comings of Christ. This is contrary to Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Heb. 9:24 - instead, the Scriptures are clear that "Christ will appear only a second time, when he comes in glory to save us." See also Rev. 19:11-16. The Scriptures only reveal two comings of Christ.

2 Thess. 2:1-4 - concerning the coming of the Lord, there will be a time of great trouble. As part of their rapture theory, Protestants call this period the "tribulation."

1 Thess. 4:17; 2 Thess. 2:1-4 - the question is when the rapture will occur. Will it occur before (pre), during (mid) or after (post) the tribulation?

Rev. 20:2-3; 7 - these verses refer to the thousand year period where satan is bound and Christ reigns. Protestants often called this period the "millennium." However, the "thousand" year period only means a very long time. It, like much of apocalyptic literature, is not to be taken literally.

Psalm 50:10 - for example, we see the cattle on a "thousand hills." The word "thousand" here obviously means a very long time. It cannot be taken literally. This is the same with the "thousand" used in the Apocalypse.

Dan. 7:10 - a "thousand thousands" served him. Again, "thousand" means a lot. It is not to be taken literally.

2 Peter 3:8 - with God one day is a "thousand" years and a "thousand" years is one day. "Thousand" is symbolic for a long time.

Matt. 16:27; 25:31-46 - the fact that there is immediate punishment rejects the premillenialism idea of a 1,000 year span between the second coming of Christ and the final judgment.

Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 2:1-12 - these verses reject the premillenialism and mid-tribulation view because the rapture and the tribulation occur together.

Matt. 13:24-30; 36-43 - the wheat and weeds parable rejects the postmillenialism idea that the world will be Christianized before the end of time.

Rev. 20:4 - this verse shows the millennium is the period of Christ's current reign with His saints in heaven and His rule through the Church. This view, which Protestants call "amillenialism," is consistent with the Catholic view. The rapture and the second coming will occur after Christ's reign and the end of the Church Militant on earth. There is thus no "rapture" that precedes the second coming of Jesus.

Rev. 20:3; Matt. 12:29-30 - satan is currently bound during this millennium insofar as he cannot prevent the spreading of the Gospel.

Luke 10:17-18 - after the elders preached the Gospel, Jesus said He saw satan fall like lightning. Thus, satan is currently bound and cannot prevent us from evangelizing the world.

2 Peter 3:10-15 - in the meantime, we wait for the Lord's coming with zeal, avoiding sin, and being at peace, in the hope of our salvation.

www.scripturecatholic.com
 
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Church Punk

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Atomagenesis said:
We are already in the end times.

The "Rapture"

1 Thess. 4:17 - Paul writes that "we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Many Protestants call this experience the "rapture" (even though the word "rapture" is not found in the Bible). This theory says that Christ will take the faithful up to heaven before the final coming.

John 14:3; 1 Cor. 15:52 - these are other passages that Protestants use to support the rapture experience. The problem with the rapture theory is that is assumes three comings of Christ. This is contrary to Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Heb. 9:24 - instead, the Scriptures are clear that "Christ will appear only a second time, when he comes in glory to save us." See also Rev. 19:11-16. The Scriptures only reveal two comings of Christ.

2 Thess. 2:1-4 - concerning the coming of the Lord, there will be a time of great trouble. As part of their rapture theory, Protestants call this period the "tribulation."

1 Thess. 4:17; 2 Thess. 2:1-4 - the question is when the rapture will occur. Will it occur before (pre), during (mid) or after (post) the tribulation?

Rev. 20:2-3; 7 - these verses refer to the thousand year period where satan is bound and Christ reigns. Protestants often called this period the "millennium." However, the "thousand" year period only means a very long time. It, like much of apocalyptic literature, is not to be taken literally.

Psalm 50:10 - for example, we see the cattle on a "thousand hills." The word "thousand" here obviously means a very long time. It cannot be taken literally. This is the same with the "thousand" used in the Apocalypse.

Dan. 7:10 - a "thousand thousands" served him. Again, "thousand" means a lot. It is not to be taken literally.

2 Peter 3:8 - with God one day is a "thousand" years and a "thousand" years is one day. "Thousand" is symbolic for a long time.

Matt. 16:27; 25:31-46 - the fact that there is immediate punishment rejects the premillenialism idea of a 1,000 year span between the second coming of Christ and the final judgment.

Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 2:1-12 - these verses reject the premillenialism and mid-tribulation view because the rapture and the tribulation occur together.

Matt. 13:24-30; 36-43 - the wheat and weeds parable rejects the postmillenialism idea that the world will be Christianized before the end of time.

Rev. 20:4 - this verse shows the millennium is the period of Christ's current reign with His saints in heaven and His rule through the Church. This view, which Protestants call "amillenialism," is consistent with the Catholic view. The rapture and the second coming will occur after Christ's reign and the end of the Church Militant on earth. There is thus no "rapture" that precedes the second coming of Jesus.

Rev. 20:3; Matt. 12:29-30 - satan is currently bound during this millennium insofar as he cannot prevent the spreading of the Gospel.

Luke 10:17-18 - after the elders preached the Gospel, Jesus said He saw satan fall like lightning. Thus, satan is currently bound and cannot prevent us from evangelizing the world.

2 Peter 3:10-15 - in the meantime, we wait for the Lord's coming with zeal, avoiding sin, and being at peace, in the hope of our salvation.

www.scripturecatholic.com
I think you talk about protestants like you understand what we teach and believe. BE CAREFULL. I don't believe that Christ will come three times. He will come twice. Rapture ( and someone that knows greek can speak more on this) is use in the bible. It's the word meaning caught up. At the time of rapture Christ won't come to earth We will be caught up to Him:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
The reference to the site is nothing, for I feel that it's teaching is off.

Grace and Peace to you,
Punk
 
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Adoniram

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Atomagenesis said:
We are already in the end times.

The "Rapture"

1 Thess. 4:17 - Paul writes that "we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Many Protestants call this experience the "rapture" (even though the word "rapture" is not found in the Bible). This theory says that Christ will take the faithful up to heaven before the final coming.

You are correct that the word "rapture" does not appear in the Bible, however it is derived from the Latin word "rapturo" which is the Latin translation of the Greek word "harpazo" which is found in the Bible. Strong's Greek Dictionary has the following definition:

harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

So you see, the Rapture is not a "coming" but rather a taking away or removing as described by the words "caught up in the clouds."

John 14:3; 1 Cor. 15:52 - these are other passages that Protestants use to support the rapture experience. The problem with the rapture theory is that is assumes three comings of Christ. This is contrary to Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Heb. 9:24 - instead, the Scriptures are clear that "Christ will appear only a second time, when he comes in glory to save us." See also Rev. 19:11-16. The Scriptures only reveal two comings of Christ.

Rapture adherents do not assume three comings, they see the Rapture as a separate event apart from when Christ returns to defeat the Antichrist and set up his kingdom. Note- we believe that he has already saved us, we merely await the glorious transformation Paul speaks of in 1 Cor. 15: 51-53.

2 Thess. 2:1-4 - concerning the coming of the Lord, there will be a time of great trouble. As part of their rapture theory, Protestants call this period the "tribulation."

1 Thess. 4:17; 2 Thess. 2:1-4 - the question is when the rapture will occur. Will it occur before (pre), during (mid) or after (post) the tribulation?

As to the timing of the Rapture, being a pre-tribber, I tend to believe Jesus, who after describing the terrible conditions of the great tribulation, said in Luke 21:36- "Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." As clear a prophecy of a pre-trib Rapture as I have found.

Rev. 20:2-3; 7 - these verses refer to the thousand year period where satan is bound and Christ reigns. Protestants often called this period the "millennium." However, the "thousand" year period only means a very long time. It, like much of apocalyptic literature, is not to be taken literally.

Psalm 50:10 - for example, we see the cattle on a "thousand hills." The word "thousand" here obviously means a very long time. It cannot be taken literally. This is the same with the "thousand" used in the Apocalypse.

Dan. 7:10 - a "thousand thousands" served him. Again, "thousand" means a lot. It is not to be taken literally.

2 Peter 3:8 - with God one day is a "thousand" years and a "thousand" years is one day. "Thousand" is symbolic for a long time.

Matt. 16:27; 25:31-46 - the fact that there is immediate punishment rejects the premillenialism idea of a 1,000 year span between the second coming of Christ and the final judgment.

Concerning a literal interpretation of these and other prophesies dealing with the Second Coming I will respond by pointing out that all of the prophesies concerning Christ's First Advent were fulfilled literally. His birth in Bethlehem, his virgin birth, his betrayal, his scourging, his death, and on and on. Is it not reasonable to assume that God will fulfill the Second Coming prophesies just as he did the First, in other words, literally? I believe so. Why would he change his method of operation? In fact, he is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Rev. 20:4 - this verse shows the millennium is the period of Christ's current reign with His saints in heaven and His rule through the Church. This view, which Protestants call "amillenialism," is consistent with the Catholic view. The rapture and the second coming will occur after Christ's reign and the end of the Church Militant on earth. There is thus no "rapture" that precedes the second coming of Jesus.

Rev. 20:3; Matt. 12:29-30 - satan is currently bound during this millennium insofar as he cannot prevent the spreading of the Gospel.

Luke 10:17-18 - after the elders preached the Gospel, Jesus said He saw satan fall like lightning. Thus, satan is currently bound and cannot prevent us from evangelizing the world.

This whole argument stands and fails on two critical points. Satan is not bound in this day and age. Jesus is not ruling this world at this time through the church. Satan is currently the "prince of this world" (John 14:30), deceiving many (2 Cor. 11:13-15).

In the Luke passage, Jesus is talking about Satan's fall from heaven due to pride which is described in Is. 14:12-17. Jesus, of course, was there and witnessed God cast Satan out of heaven and was using that event as an illustration of the power that God gives to the faithful.

The correct reading of Rev. 20:3 is not that "he cannot prevent the spreading of the gospel," but rather that "...he should deceive the nations no more..." One look at the world we live in and it is clearly evident that Satan is still here, deceiving people, nations, promoting false teaching, and wreaking general havoc just as he has for thousands of years.

Jesus did explain to Peter and the others that the ministry of the church would go forth and "the gates of hell would not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18) The "church," and by that I mean "body of true believers", (not the Catholic church refered to above as the "Church", but also not excluding the many faithful believers who belong to the Catholic church), is about the only thing that is keeping the world sane and from "going to hell in a handbasket" at this time. And that is one of it's functions, to hold the workings of the devil at bay. (2 Thes. 2:6-7) Christ and the Holy Spirit are working through the church to bring as many as will come into the fold, but you can't say that they are ruling the world through the church. If they were, then you would expect things, conditions in the world to be getting better and better instead of worse and worse like they are. But do not fear, the prophesies say that Christ will return to this earth, establish his kingdom, and rule from Jerusalem with a rod of iron. And things will be better. "The lamb will lie down with the lion." In the meantime, Christ is doing two other things for us- preparing a place for us (John 14:2-3), and interceeding for us (Heb. 7:25).

(Side bar- sometimes I wish the Catholic posters would make a distinction between what they call the Church, their Catholic denomination, and the church, the body of believers. Sometimes I get the impression by the wording of their posts that they think they are the only believers in the body.)

2 Peter 3:10-15 - in the meantime, we wait for the Lord's coming with zeal, avoiding sin, and being at peace, in the hope of our salvation.

Here, I wholeheartedly agree. God Bless
 
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