Before the Beginning of Time - Hawkings

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joshua 1 9

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If you don't understand
Exactly, you can not understand something you have never experienced. I remember the first time I went to California. Even though many many moves are made in California it is just not the same as actually going there. We can tell you about Hong Kong, but if you have never been there and have no personal experience then you are not going to understand. For example we were at the hotel and we got on the elevator and we got off the elevator. We walked outside and there was a swimming pool, grass and a street. We walked up the street to a fast food restaurant and then I realized there were no cars on the street. I asked them why are there no cars on this street? They said it is because we are still on the 17 floor. This is something you have to experience and see to appreciate how they can build a whole city in layers. Get back on the elevator and go down to the grown floor and when you walk out it is as if you went back 100 years in time to the old Hong Kong. We can tell you about infinity but if you have never experienced infinity you are simply not going to understand. IF the resurrection power of God is not working in you then you are not going to believe in the resurrection. If you are not born again then you are not going to know the Mind of Christ and the Divinity of God.

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." 1cor2:14

"I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?" John3:12
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Exactly, you can not understand something you have never experienced. I remember the first time I went to California. Even though many many moves are made in California it is just not the same as actually going there. We can tell you about Hong Kong, but if you have never been there and have no personal experience then you are not going to understand. For example we were at the hotel and we got on the elevator and we got off the elevator. We walked outside and there was a swimming pool, grass and a street. We walked up the street to a fast food restaurant and then I realized there were no cars on the street. I asked them why are there no cars on this street? They said it is because we are still on the 17 floor. This is something you have to experience and see to appreciate how they can build a whole city in layers. Get back on the elevator and go down to the grown floor and when you walk out it is as if you went back 100 years in time to the old Hong Kong. We can tell you about infinity but if you have never experienced infinity you are simply not going to understand. IF the resurrection power of God is not working in you then you are not going to believe in the resurrection. If you are not born again then you are not going to know the Mind of Christ and the Divinity of God.

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." 1cor2:14

"I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?" John3:12
All very interesting, no doubt; but the question involved a mathematical infinity in a mathematical context. Your contribution was a relevant as describing your experiences of a horizon on Earth in a discussion of Hawking radiation.
 
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joshua 1 9

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mathematical infinity
That is impossible because math is finite. Although math does seem to have the ability to suggest that the infinite is possible. Interestingly Atheism which if finite requires the infinite for its survival. This gets back to my brothers hypothesis that the brain cannot function without opposites. Just as you can not have atheism without theism, perhaps you can not have theism without atheism. Every atheist that I have ever talked to, when they tell me what they do not believe in, I am right in there with them. I do not believe in what they do not believe in also. They simply do not know or understand what it is that I believe in. For example I believe in a world where there is no war, where all of creation can live together in peace. Where the lion and the lamb lie down together and where there is nothing in all of creation to harm or hurt the child in any way. So what does it mean to be an atheist? Does that mean they have no hope that we can life in peace without war? Do they have no hope that a child can be safe from harm and does not have to fear injury? Is that what it means to be an atheist?
 
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SelfSim

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So, given that Michael has gone uncharacteristically quiet on these matters, it would be interesting to use the opportunity to discuss what happens to surface brightness at cosmological scales. Ie: if anyone is still interested(?)

As cosmological distances increase, (ie: the shell radius 'R' increases), and the surface brightness of a given galaxy remains unaffected by the inverse square law, more galaxies are then included in each new shell. The dark gaps (or spaces) between them also decrease from the earthly observer's viewpoint. In an infinite universe, this then results in increasing luminosity ... but not necessarily in our acceleratingly expanding universe ...
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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That is impossible because math is finite.
Lol! Tell that to Cantor; and Weyl said "Mathematics is the science of the infinite." There's a whole range of infinities in mathematics; the unbounded limits of number theory; the ordinal and cardinal infinities of set theory (see Cantor); the infinite-dimensional spaces of topology; etc. My earlier comment stands.

Although math does seem to have the ability to suggest that the infinite is possible. Interestingly Atheism which if finite requires the infinite for its survival. This gets back to my brothers hypothesis that the brain cannot function without opposites. Just as you can not have atheism without theism, perhaps you can not have theism without atheism. Every atheist that I have ever talked to, when they tell me what they do not believe in, I am right in there with them. I do not believe in what they do not believe in also. They simply do not know or understand what it is that I believe in. For example I believe in a world where there is no war, where all of creation can live together in peace. Where the lion and the lamb lie down together and where there is nothing in all of creation to harm or hurt the child in any way. So what does it mean to be an atheist? Does that mean they have no hope that we can life in peace without war? Do they have no hope that a child can be safe from harm and does not have to fear injury? Is that what it means to be an atheist?
Oh my - keep taking the tablets...
 
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sjastro

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So, given that Michael has gone uncharacteristically quiet on these matters, it would be interesting to use the opportunity to discuss what happens to surface brightness at cosmological scales. Ie: if anyone is still interested(?)
Where as surface brightness is independent of distance in a static Universe, in the Big Bang and Steady State theories it depends on the redshift z and becomes noticeable at large cosmological scales.

At local and small scales the surface brightness can be treated as being independent of z and distance.
The flux F (which is not surface brightness) emitted by a galaxy is defined by the equation:

F = L/4πr²

L is luminosity and r is the luminosity distance from the galaxy to the observer.
The luminosity distance r is a good approximation for nearby objects and is based on Euclidean spacetime.
Note the flux F unlike surface brightness is dependant on distance.

For distant objects the luminosity distance is not as straightforward as the inverse square law deviates due to spacetime curvature, time dilation and redshift.
Since the Universe is found to be flat at large scales we can ignore the effects of spacetime curvature.
The remaining effects are corrected by the use of co-moving distances.
Co-moving distance is where the effects of spacetime expansion are removed and the distance between objects is constant.

In an expanding Universe the distance rₑ between gravitationally unbound galaxies increases and is related to the expansion factor (1+z) and co-moving distance σ by the equation.

rₑ = (1+z)σ

In a static flat Universe z=0 and rₑ=r=σ.

If the galaxy is large enough it has an angular dimension in the sky which subtends the angle θ in radians where:

θ =D/l

D is the actual diameter of the galaxy and l is the distance to the observer.
In a static Universe θ is constant as l is constant.

In an expanding Universe however θ is not constant.
When photons are emitted from the galaxy it is closer to the observer than by the time the photons reach the observer.
As a result θ is larger than the true value since l is smaller than the “correct” distance.
How small l is depends on the co-moving distance and expansion factor according to the equation:

l = σ/(1+z)

By definition the surface brightness SB is defined as.

SB = F/dω

Where dω= A/4πl² is a segment of the solid angle and A is the actual area of the galaxy.
Substituting flux F = L/4πrₑ² into this equation gives:

SB = (L/4πrₑ²)/( A/4πl²) = Ll²/rₑ²A

In a static Universe rₑ = l and the equation reduces to SB = L/A confirming the independence of distance.
In an expanding Universe we need to incorporate the co-moving distance σ and expansion factor (1+z) by substituting rₑ = (1+z)σ and l = σ/1+z into the equation SB = Ll²/rₑ²A.
This gives:

SB = [L/(1+z)²][σ²/A(1+z)²] = L/A(1+z)⁴

In an expanding Universe SB is a function of redshift z and varies as the inverse expansion factor to the fourth power.
At local scales or in gravitationally bound systems such as galaxy clusters where expansion doesn’t occur z=0 and the equation reduces to SB=L/A.
For small values of z<<1, the SB=L/A is a good approximation but as z increases with increasing distance, SB is not longer distance independent.

The maths being based on a Euclidean geometry and uniform expansion does not take into account the effects of dark energy.
Depending on the frequency band in which surface brightness measurements are measured, both Keck and Hubble scopes determined the exponential term as being 2.6 or 3.4 rather than the fourth power.

This result however well and truly kills off a static Universe.
 
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SelfSim

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So, thanks for that sjastro .. very interesting ...

So, the SB in an acceleratingly expanding universe, (at large z), decreases by an exponent of something between 2.6 to 3.4, which would mean that very distant galaxies will be very dim, unless they are intrinsically really bright, or intrinsically occupy large viewing angles (assuming flatness) (?) This also takes into account the co-moving observational aspects.

No doubt the static universe believers will attempt to reverse engineer this, but without proper operational empirical definitions, (ie: themselves verified by measurements to start with), some serious contortions will be necessary to fit the measurements (which, of course, will be covered up by smoke screens and irrelevancies).

Also, let's see 'em do all that 'in the lab'!
 
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sjastro

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So, thanks for that sjastro .. very interesting ...

So, the SB in an acceleratingly expanding universe, (at large z), decreases by an exponent of something between 2.6 to 3.4, which would mean that very distant galaxies will be very dim, unless they are intrinsically really bright, or intrinsically occupy large viewing angles (assuming flatness) (?) This also takes into account the co-moving observational aspects.

The structure of a galaxy is also a very important consideration for SB.
Spiral galaxies have an uneven brightness distribution compared to elliptical galaxies and the Sersic profile needs to be taken into consideration.

Elliptical galaxies provide "good data" for testing SB ∝ (1+z) ̄ ⁴ .
Tolman.jpg

No doubt the static universe believers will attempt to reverse engineer this, but without proper operational empirical definitions, (ie: themselves verified by measurements to start with), some serious contortions will be necessary to fit the measurements (which, of course, will be covered up by smoke screens and irrelevancies).

Also, let's see 'em do all that 'in the lab'!

In fact in a static Universe where redshift is caused by inelastic scattering (tired light), is buried by the Tolman test despite attempts to show otherwise as explained by Brian Koberlein here.
In the case of tired light SB ∝ (1+z) ̄ ¹ which is contradicted by the above data.

This provides further ammunition to RealityCheck01's thread.
 
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Michael

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So, given that Michael has gone uncharacteristically quiet on these matters, it would be interesting to use the opportunity to discuss what happens to surface brightness at cosmological scales. Ie: if anyone is still interested(?)

Ian and RC have kept me a tad preoccupied. I'll eventually come back to this thread but since you're *still* peddling that surface brightness nonsense and you're missing 100,000 galaxies in our local supercluster which you cannot explain, I've clearly got time to come back to it. We all know you're *never* going to explain those missing 100 thousand local galaxies or those 200 billion missing stars in your surface brightness argument.

You also keep blatantly and erroneously trying to ignore that fact that *every* cosmology theory "predicts" redshift, so redshift isn't exclusive to an expansion model in the first place! Oy Vey. What a *childish* argument.
 
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Michael

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In fact in a static Universe where redshift is caused by inelastic scattering (tired light), is buried by the Tolman test despite attempts to show otherwise as explained by Brian Koberlein here.

You have that completely backwards and you have reality standing on it's head since expansion models *fail* the Tolman test at larger redshifts, whereas a static universe theory passes that very same test:

Universe is Not Expanding After All, Controversial Study Suggests | Astronomy | Sci-News.com
[1405.0275] UV surface brightness of galaxies from the local Universe to z ~ 5

FYI, this line from your link is just absurd:

Apparently hypothesizing a size evolution for galaxies is bad, but introducing an unknown tired light mechanism to preserve a static universe is okay.

Dark energy is "unknown". Space expansion has never been shown to be a real cause of photon redshift in the first place. The *exact* tired light mechanism isn't specified in Lerner's paper but *several* known and demonstrated causes of "tired light' are *lab demonstrated*. Tired light explanations for redshft are alreadyl *light years* ahead of where you're at in the lab with LCDM *before* you even start inserting in yet another ad-hoc galaxy evolutionary claim that isn't even supported by the observational evidence in the first place.

Very early galaxies are mature, not turbulent | Cosmos
Hubble Surprise: Shows Early-Universe Red Galaxies as Oddly Old
Why do Galaxies in the Young Universe Appear so Mature?
First Detection of Magnetic Field in Distant Galaxy Produces a Surprise
An old-looking, dusty galaxy in a young universe – Astronomy Now
'Big baby' galaxy found in newborn Universe

Your ad-hoc galaxy evolution claims aren't even consistent with observations of the early universe.

FYI, I haven't forgotten our Obler's paradox conversation, but I've been preoccupied, and none of you have provided a satisfactory explanation as to why you're 200 billion stars and 100 thousand galaxies short of a valid surface brightness argument. You still owe me one.
 
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sjastro

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You have that completely backwards and you have reality standing on it's head since expansion models *fail* the Tolman test at larger redshifts, whereas a static universe theory passes that very same test:

Universe is Not Expanding After All, Controversial Study Suggests | Astronomy | Sci-News.com
[1405.0275] UV surface brightness of galaxies from the local Universe to z ~ 5
As I have stated previously you are a stupid liar for being caught out so easily.
This is another example of such a blatant piece of dishonesty.

The first link states this.
It is amazing that the predictions of this simple formula are as good as the predictions of the expanding Universe theory, which include complex corrections for hypothetical dark matter and dark energy,” said study co-author Dr Renato Falomo of the Osservatorio Astronomico di Padova, Italy

This is what your second link states.
Claims have been made that the Tolman test provides compelling evidence against a static model for the universe. In this paper we reconsider this subject by adopting a static Euclidean universe (SEU) with a linear Hubble relation at all z (which is not the standard Einstein–de Sitter model), resulting in a relation between flux and luminosity that is virtually indistinguishable from the one used for ΛCDM models.
So much for your bald faced lie of claiming expansion models fail at large z whereas static models do not.

Even ignoring your pathological lying, you clearly condone the Tolman test which is based on surface brightness being independent of distance in a static Universe, otherwise you would be telling us the test is as wrong as Olbers' paradox.
It doesn't help you either that Lerner alters the model instead of claiming that surface brightness does depend on distance in a static Universe in which case there would be no need to make comparisons with the expansion model as the Tolman test would be invalid.

It is yet another example of you contradicting youself.

Dark energy is "unknown". Space expansion has never been shown to be a real cause of photon redshift in the first place. The *exact* tired light mechanism isn't specified in Lerner's paper but *several* known and demonstrated causes of "tired light' are *lab demonstrated*. Tired light explanations for redshft are alreadyl *light years* ahead of where you're at in the lab with LCDM *before* you even start inserting in yet another ad-hoc galaxy evolutionary claim that isn't even supported by the observational evidence in the first place.

Unless you show me a lab demonstration of tired light where every single wavelength (an infinite number) is shown to be red shifted I will show you a liar instead.

FYI, I haven't forgotten our Oblers' paradox conversation, but I've been preoccupied, and none of you have provided a satisfactory explanation as to why you're 200 billion stars and 100 thousand galaxies short of a valid surface brightness argument. You still owe me one.
Along with you propensity of lying at any cost, the lack of basic logic in your posts is a common characteristic.
If you are not able to provide independently verified sources as per my conditions then your argument of missing stars and galaxies is not only wrong but totally irrelevant and I don't owe you anything.

You can cross Lerner and Crawford off the list as they have no issues with surface brightness or the paradox.
If proponents of a static Universe have no issues with surface brightness you are engaging in a lost cause.
Are you going to ultimately admit your take on Olbers' paradox is comprehensively wrong?
 
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Michael

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As I have stated previously you are a stupid liar for being caught out so easily.
This is another example of such a blatant piece of dishonesty.

The first link states this.


This is what your second link states.

So much for your bald faced lie of claiming expansion models fail at large z whereas static models do not.

Ya know.....

It's *very* telling that you folks are constantly experiencing *blatant comprehension problems* which you then try to blame on me, and/or you simply cherry pick the data you like, while ignoring the data you don't like. This case is certainly no exception, and your "liar liar pants on fire" routine is just childish, unethical and simply *wrong*. I specifically did *not* say "LCMD model", I specifically used the term "expansion models" failed with the specific intent of *excluding* all the supernatural and ad-hoc manipulation of the data that you have to do in order to get a "fit" to the data set in LCDM.

This is what Lerner also said in that first article you that flat out ignored:

These results are consistent with what would be expected from ordinary geometry if the Universe was not expanding, and are in contradiction with the drastic dimming of surface brightness predicted by the expanding Universe hypothesis.

An *ordinary* (without all your supernatural gobbledygook) expansion model would predict *drastic dimming* of surface brightness but that's not what we see, so a *typical* expansion model *fails* this test, just like I said! Period.

Now of *course* you can kludge the living daylights out of the results by putting in a ton of ad-hoc nonsense which the LCMD model does, but then it's not a typical expansion model and the 'fit" is based on metaphysical ad-hoc add-ons rather than due to expansion as Lerner also explains in the very next paragraph of the same article:

“Of course, you can hypothesize that galaxies were much smaller, and thus had hundreds of times greater intrinsic surface brightness in the past, and that, just by coincidence, the Big Bang dimming exactly cancels that greater brightness at all distances to produce the illusion of a constant brightness, but that would be a very big coincidence,” Mr Lerner said.

I specifically did *not* claim that your metaphysical monstrosity failed the test, I simply pointed out that in order to *pass* such a test with an expansion model you need four different supernatural constructs *and* you need to assume the evolution of galaxies which is not even congruent with what we actually observe in the early universe.

You three, including RC, are *constantly* misrepresenting my statements and then launching into a personal attack over your own strawmen. How unethical can you be anyway?

Even ignoring your pathological lying,

It turns out that *you're* the one engaging in such unethical behavior, not me. I never claimed your LCDM failed that test. You made that up!

you clearly condone the Tolman test which is based on surface brightness being independent of distance in a static Universe, otherwise you would be telling us the test is as wrong as Olbers' paradox.

No because a typical expansion model (not necessarily your kludged version of it) would not predict a constant surface brightness to start with, and what you're calling *flux* is still dropping off with distance as per the inverse square law of light, so the Olber's paradox claim is still utter nonsense because once the flux drops below a specific threshold related to human eyesight, we wouldn't see an object that we were staring directly at, even if what you're calling "surface brightness" remained constant.

Unless you show me a lab demonstration of tired light where every single wavelength (an infinite number) is shown to be red shifted I will show you a liar instead.

Unless you can show me a study that shows that gamma rays and x-rays show *exactly* the same amount of redshift as radio waves, through the whole spectrum, I have no reason to believe that all wavelengths follow that rule in first place, and that you simply made that up too.

Along with you propensity of lying at any cost, the lack of basic logic in your posts is a common characteristic.

LOL! So says the guy that suggested that if we removed the center divider that the surface brightness experiment that surface brightness on the opposite panel would increase rather than just the area that was lit. Your constant irrational *and false* personal attacks get old after awhile. Give it a rest.

If you are not able to provide independently verified sources as per my conditions then your argument of missing stars and galaxies is not only wrong but totally irrelevant and I don't owe you anything.

Your so called "conditions" are purely your own arbitrary conditions which attempt to circumvent your real problem, namely that you're 200 billions stars, 100 thousand galaxies and 268,770 AU shells short of a valid scientific argument. Your blatant bait and switch routine from comparing the brightness of a star at 1AU, to *galaxy* shells is pure nonsense because no galaxy or collection of distant galaxies could ever be anywhere close to as bright as our own sun, and none of them are.

You can cross Lerner and Crawford off the list as they have no issues with surface brightness or the paradox.

Ya, I realize that you're trying to hide the fact that what you're calling *flux* drops off with the inverse square law and your pulling another bait and switch over what you're calling "surface brightness". Once the so called flux drops below the threshold of human eyesight, it really doesn't matter what your "surface brightness" does. It's still invisible to the naked eye.

If proponents of a static Universe have no issues with surface brightness you are engaging in a lost cause.

No, your Obler's paradox claim is a hopelessly lost cause as your missing stars and galaxies so clearly demonstrates. Even Lerner's proposal offers a method to explain redshift with distance, demonstrating conclusively that expansion models don't have exclusive title to the prediction of redshift, making your whole argument utterly pointless.

Are you going to ultimately admit your take on Olbers' paradox is comprehensively wrong?

No, I'm completely right about the inverse square law destroying your argument which is *exactly* why you're missing 200 billion stars and 100 thousand galaxies in the night sky!
 
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sjastro

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All the spin doctoring, false dichotomies and mindless word salad, won’t change the fact you have been caught out lying by Lerner’s paper and contradicted by the Tolman test.

When you come out with remarks like this;
MIchael said:
I specifically did *not* say "LCMD model", I specifically used the term "expansion models" failed with the specific intent of *excluding* all the supernatural and ad-hoc manipulation of the data that you have to do in order to get a "fit" to the data set in LCDM.

Or this;
Michael said:
I specifically did *not* claim that your metaphysical monstrosity failed the test…….

And this;
Michael said:
I never claimed your LCDM failed that test. You made that up!

When in your previous post you stated the exact opposite:
Michael said:
You have that completely backwards and you have reality standing on it's head since expansion models *fail* the Tolman test at larger redshifts, whereas a static universe theory passes that very same test:

If it is not straight out lying then the alternative is you are one incredibly inept individual who contradicts himself in the space of a single post.
Whether it is a case of lying or stupidity to then engage in this ridiculous argument over semantics and idiotic word salad is spin doctoring of the highest order.

I suggest you stop with the noise which makes you look like a bigger liar and/or drongo and get on with your assigned task.
 
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SelfSim

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The structure of a galaxy is also a very important consideration for SB.
Spiral galaxies have an uneven brightness distribution compared to elliptical galaxies and the Sersic profile needs to be taken into consideration.

Elliptical galaxies provide "good data" for testing SB ∝ (1+z) ̄ ⁴ .
Tolman.jpg



In fact in a static Universe where redshift is caused by inelastic scattering (tired light), is buried by the Tolman test despite attempts to show otherwise as explained by Brian Koberlein here.
In the case of tired light SB ∝ (1+z) ̄ ¹ which is contradicted by the above data.

This provides further ammunition to RealityCheck01's thread.
Michael is off with the fairies if he thinks 'tired light' can outdo the match shown in the above graph.

His nit-picking, using word salad on 'expanding' vs 'LCDM' is completely laughable.

(As a slight aside and more on nit-picks, I'm also finding the need to point out that 'LCDM' is so often mistyped by Michael as 'LDCM' (or whatever), that I'm forced to conclude that this is strong evidence of his compulsion to 'shoot-from-the-hip' without any forethought, or checking of his own posts ... and no matter how dumb it makes his so-called 'arguments' look).

'Michael .. The Word-Salad Specialist' .. Kind of a 'catchy' sign off for him, (maybe his new footer), eh?
 
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sjastro

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Michael is off with the fairies if he thinks 'tired light' can outdo the match shown in the above graph.

His nit-picking, using word salad on 'expanding' vs 'LCDM' is completely laughable.

(As a slight aside and more on nit-picks, I'm also finding the need to point out that 'LCDM' is so often mistyped by Michael as 'LDCM' (or whatever), that I'm forced to conclude that this is strong evidence of his compulsion to 'shoot-from-the-hip' without any forethought, or checking of his own posts ... and no matter how dumb it makes his so-called 'arguments' look).

'Michael .. The Word-Salad Specialist' .. Kind of a 'catchy' sign off for him, (maybe his new footer), eh?
Note how the "expanding vs LCDM" discussion came into being after he was caught out fabricating the claim that Lerner's model is superior at high z values so he decides to obfuscate the discussion rather than admitting his discretion.
What makes his indiscretion even more transparent is Lerner's paper only goes up to z=5, where is the high end z data from z>5 that supports this claim.:scratch:

Analysis of Michael's posts reveals word salad increases against the number of false or contradictory claims detected according to the equation.

WS = xexp(x^0.5)

Where WS is the number of word salad statements, x is the number of false or contradictory claims.

Michael.jpg

Note how the graph indicates if the number of false or contradictory claims are kept to a minimum the rate of increase of word salad is small but explodes if the number increases.
This is consistent when progressing into a thread where the number of false or contradictory claims reaches a "critical mass" and explodes where Michael's posts devolve into pure word salad.
 
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Michael

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All the spin doctoring, false dichotomies and mindless word salad, won’t change the fact you have been caught out lying by Lerner’s paper and contradicted by the Tolman test.

Boloney. I directly quoted the article and Lerner.

When you come out with remarks like this;


Or this;


And this;


When in your previous post you stated the exact opposite:

Nope. Where did you see the term LCDM or anything that deviates from this quote from the article?

These results are consistent with what would be expected from ordinary geometry if the Universe was not expanding, and are in contradiction with the drastic dimming of surface brightness predicted by the expanding Universe hypothesis.

I simply quoted the article and I was quite specific about *not* using the term "LCDM". In fact I even pointed out that the various ad hoc elements you need to actually get a fit aren't supported by the observational data.

If it is not straight out lying then the alternative is you are one incredibly inept individual who contradicts himself in the space of a single post.

No I didn't even use the term LCMD in the first place. You simply made that up.

Whether it is a case of lying or stupidity to then engage in this ridiculous argument over semantics and idiotic word salad is spin doctoring of the highest order.

No, quoting the article isn't "spin doctoring", it's simply quoting the article. :)

I suggest you stop with the noise which makes you look like a bigger liar and/or drongo and get on with your assigned task.

I suggest you stop with the strawmen and personal attacks. It's getting boring.

I simply said exactly what the article itself said:

These results are consistent with what would be expected from ordinary geometry if the Universe was not expanding, and are in contradiction with the drastic dimming of surface brightness predicted by the expanding Universe hypothesis.

And by the way, the static universe theory passes other complicated "tests" as well at LCDM too, not just the surface brightness test:

[1312.0003] Alcock-Paczynski cosmological test

Of course a static universe theory doesn't require your four metaphysical claims, or your claims about galaxy evolution which don't even jive with observation of the early universe.
 
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Michael

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Michael is off with the fairies if he thinks 'tired light' can outdo the match shown in the above graph.

His nit-picking, using word salad on 'expanding' vs 'LCDM' is completely laughable.

What's laughable is your denial of fact that I simply repeated what the article itself also said:

These results are consistent with what would be expected from ordinary geometry if the Universe was not expanding, and are in contradiction with the drastic dimming of surface brightness predicted by the expanding Universe hypothesis.

You ignored the fact that I didn't use the term LCMD you also utterly ignored the fact that I cited five or six references that all demonstrate that LCDM's 'predictions' about the early universe are just wrong.

Before the Beginning of Time - Hawkings
 
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Michael

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Note how the "expanding vs LCDM" discussion came into being after he was caught out fabricating the claim that Lerner's model is superior at high z values so he decides to obfuscate the discussion rather than admitting his discretion.

Nope, I simply paraphrased the article:

Here's exactly what the article says:

These results are consistent with what would be expected from ordinary geometry if the Universe was not expanding, and are in contradiction with the drastic dimming of surface brightness predicted by the expanding Universe hypothesis.

Here's what I said:

You have that completely backwards and you have reality standing on it's head since expansion models *fail* the Tolman test at larger redshifts, whereas a static universe theory passes that very same test:

I said the same thing that the article I cited also stated.

WS = xexp(x^0.5)

More of your made up nonsense. When you can't win a debate based on real science, you just go for the cheesy personal attacks and you stuff false words in my mouth. Talk about transparent nonsense. Yawn.

LCDM is *not* the only model to pass a range of complicated tests. Static universe models pass the same types of tests without all the metaphysical mumbo-jumbo that LCDM requires and it's consistent with evidence of a 'mature' distance universe too:
Why do Galaxies in the Young Universe Appear so Mature?


[1312.0003] Alcock-Paczynski cosmological test
 
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SelfSim

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... What makes his indiscretion even more transparent is Lerner's paper only goes up to z=5, where is the high end z data from z>5 that supports this claim.:scratch:
You didn't say that .. sjastro did .. so you'd better fix it up quick smart!
(Just some SelfSim 'payback' in keeping with Michael's preferred and rather childish 'style' here ... Readers: Please feel free to ignore)
 
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Michael

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You didn't say that .. sjastro did .. so you'd better fix it up quick smart!

I simply forgot to remove that particular text, but it's fixed for you now.

(Just some SelfSim 'payback' in keeping with Michael's preferred and rather childish 'style' here ... Readers: Please feel free to ignore)

The childish part is you two blatantly ignoring the fact that I was simply quoting/paraphrasing the article that I cited, and pulling your liar, liar, pants on fire nonsense. Oy Vey!

Universe is Not Expanding After All, Controversial Study Suggests | Astronomy | Sci-News.com

These results are consistent with what would be expected from ordinary geometry if the Universe was not expanding, and are in contradiction with the drastic dimming of surface brightness predicted by the expanding Universe hypothesis.

A static universe model also passes other complicated cosmological tests just as well as LCDM too, without your metaphysical kludges:

[1312.0003] Alcock-Paczynski cosmological test
 
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