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Before the Beginning of Time - Hawkings

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SelfSim

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And the humour continues ... Lerner has apparently been permitted to make an appearance at physicsforums to discuss his recent paper:

"Observations contradict galaxy size and surface brightness predictions that are based on the expanding universe hypothesis"

.. the reason being that the paper was actually found to be acceptable for publication by the quite reputable 'Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society' (MNRAS).

So the hilarity for us in this CFs thread, comes in with his very opening sentence (see the Abstract):
Lerner said:
In a non-expanding universe surface brightness is independent of distance or redshift, while in an expanding universe it decreases rapidly with both.

:D :D :D
 
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Michael

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You are a fool and a coward as your posts demonstrate.

No, you're just consistently verbally abusive as virtually all of your posts clearly demonstrate. :( Even when I make a good faith effort to turn the other cheek, and put the thread back *on topic*, you derail it and make it about an *individual* again. Sheesh.

If I showed no cause they are personal attacks.

Your *opinions* are not 'cause', and it would not matter anyway. It's still a personal attack using an anonymous handle, while calling *me* a coward no less. Oh the irony.

For example this latest pathetic attempt at keeping the thread going instead of admitting failure by insisting I have to show an error in the Arxiv paper.

You did? Where? Perhaps I missed it?

As I have explained the paper does not use an inverse square law to refute the paradox.
You are the fool for wanting to have a fight at any cost including over a paper which contradicts your rebuttal!!!

So what if he uses a different method to refute your argument? That's not an "error" in the paper, it's simply a *different* way of refuting the so called 'paradox'. That lame argument has been refuted in *lots* of different ways. Thomas Digges didn't even fully understand the inverse square laws but he basically got that part right. Your missing 200 billion stars, and missing 268,770 AU shells verify that you have a *serious* inverse square law problem, as well as an absorption/scattering problem as pointed out by Olber himself. You also have a non-exclusive photon redshift explanation problem. Olber's paradox has to be the single *lamest* argument in astronomy today in fact. It's a hopelessly flawed claim. It's got more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

Your cowardly behaviour speaks for itself.

Yawn. Putting up with your daily verbal abuse isn't cowardly, but it's down right boring after awhile.

The fact you have confessed your rebuttal is wrong by capitulating on finding supporting evidence yet you want to continue this nonsense because you are too spineless to admit it.

No! You're the one who refuses to admit *any* of the *numerous* problems with your seriously flawed argument. Unlike you I have admitted when I've made errors, so you're obviously projecting again. Not finding a published paper to support my beliefs doesn't make me instantly "wrong", anymore than your utter lack of any published paper showing real cause/effect empirical laboratory evidence of exotic matter makes you wrong, or your lack of empirical laboratory evidence that "space expansion' is a real 'cause" of photon redshift makes you instantly wrong. It may indeed 'cast doubt' on your position, but doesn't instantly falsify your position. Get over it.

Running off to Tbolts where the long arm of moderation doesn’t apply

Snore. There you go again, hijacking this thread again with more whining about some *other* forum! Thunderbolts has moderators like every board in cyberspace. They just know the individual in question and they're also tired of his blatant misrepresentations and his antics too.

so you can engage in spiteful personal attacks knowing the right of reply is missing as none of the individuals attacked are members;

How would I possibly know that, and how exactly is that "my" fault? Why doesn't he just sign up using another handle and complain to the moderators if he's unhappy with my comments? It's a public forum like all forums.

while being aided and abetted by your local moderators who conveniently turn a blind eye is another example of your cowardly behaviour.

Oh please! I've been slandered around the internet *by my real name* in more places than I can count, usually without the benefit of you folks even using your real names. Whatever my "sins", at least I use my real name and everyone knows exactly who I am.

In fact, the individual you mentioned is constantly badmouthing me and *every* EU/PC proponent all over the internet, without even using his *real name* while hiding behind anonymous handles no less. Oh the irony of you using an anonymous handle to attack me personally while accusing me of cowardly behaviors. :doh:

To stupidly state you have had no moderator issues at Tbolts as if this proves your posts are non offensive then why don’t you post your thread “Reality Check is the clueless king of sleaze” here.

Mostly because his online antics are infamous at Tbolts and they've been directed at virtually everyone who supports EU/PC theory. He's infamous at Tbolts, whereas he's just another guy on a religious oriented website.

As far as the ends justifying the means who are you trying to kid by legitimizing calling individuals sleazebags, scumbags and “mass murderers”?

I didn't call anyone a 'mass murder', you're misrepresenting my statements.

FYI, I've turned the other cheek with that individual more times than I can count, but the rude behaviors never change, so I've posted my feelings about him at Tbolts. So what? Most of my derogatory comments have been directed at an anonymous handle, not even his real name, and he's done *far* worse to me *using my real name* on *numerous* forums around the internet without even using his real name!

One of the biggest lies you perpetrate with this “justification” which also includes accusing individuals as being unethical, liars or “EU/PC haters” is in the pretext itself where you have to vilify the individual or group in order to justify your personal attacks.

Individuals like FB and many others that post here at CF and on other forums are mature enough to make their points without all the personal attack nonsense that a few of you engage in. In most instances, it's not like I even went after you folks in the first place. If anything I went after *a bad scientific model*. Most of you just got all bent out of shape about my beliefs about the LCMD model, or my beliefs about EU/PC thoeory, and you got all nasty and personal as your whole 'fool/coward' nonsense so clearly demonstrated.

Brian Koberlein is a prime example and incidentally if you think mentioning his name is a form of entrapment you are paranoid as well.

Again with the OT BK nonsense? We all know exactly why you keep bringing his name into the discussion here at CF, and it's not at all innocent.

You have the absolute gall of portraying yourself as the innocent victim while you spout cowardly libellous rhetoric at Tbolts.

Cowards don't use their real names when posting personal criticisms, they use anonymous handles. I've limited my personal criticisms toward one specific person who's behaviors have earned him that animosity, not just from me personally, but from everyone at Tbolts. If he's got a problem with my comments, he knows exactly who and I am and he knows exactly how to find me. There's nothing cowardly about it.

Meanwhile I've been slandered all over the internet by individuals who hide behind anonymous handles and hidden IP addresses and who'd never be honest enough to tell me who they really are.

Stick to the topic and stop hijacking the thread.
 
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Michael

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Hey cool! Thanks for the link.

So the hilarity for us in this CFs thread, comes in with his very opening sentence (see the Abstract):
In a non-expanding universe surface brightness is independent of distance or redshift, while in an expanding universe it decreases rapidly with both.

:D :D :D

You folks abuse the term 'surface brightness' as your missing 200 billion stars and 100,000 missing galaxies so clearly demonstrates. While 'surface brightness' might remain 'constant' to some limited distance related to the limitation of human eyesight, eventually it becomes so small, and so few photons reach the human eye that the eye sees a 'dark' surface, not a "bright" one!

The term surface brightness may have some useful meaning as it relates to telescopes and long duration CCD images but it's *meaningless* to Olber's paradox. Olber didn't have CCD images and long exposure images to work with, and contrary to his claim, we're looking at 200 billion stellar 'surfaces' at night, none of which are "bright" to the human eye. Once the "flux" drops below the threshold of human eyesight, it's just a "dark" surface, not a "bright" surface. Those missing 200 billion stellar surfaces are *not* as bright as the surface of our sun during the day! That's an *absurdly* wrong claim made by Olber. You've abusing terms and concepts right and left, just like your bait (stars) and switch (galaxies) routine. Olber didn't have a clue that other galaxies even existed when he dreamed up *and solved* his own so called 'paradox'. He also had *no* idea about distances, and the distances are so large that when we look up at the night sky we can't even see the surfaces of 200 billion stars in our own galaxy.
 
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SelfSim

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Hey cool! Thanks for the link.
...
You folks abuse the term 'surface brightness' as your missing 200 billion stars and 100,000 missing galaxies so clearly demonstrates. While 'surface brightness' might remain 'constant' to some limited distance related to the limitation of human eyesight, eventually it becomes so small, and so few photons reach the human eye that the eye sees a 'dark' surface, not a "bright" one!

The term surface brightness may have some useful meaning as it relates to telescopes and long duration CCD images but it's *meaningless* to Olber's paradox. Olber didn't have CCD images and long exposure images to work with, and contrary to his claim, we're looking at 200 billion stellar 'surfaces' at night, none of which are "bright" to the human eye. Once the "flux" drops below the threshold of human eyesight, it's just a "dark" surface, not a "bright" surface. Those missing 200 billion stellar surfaces are *not* as bright as the surface of our sun during the day! That's an *absurdly* wrong claim made by Olber. You've abusing terms and concepts right and left, just like your bait (stars) and switch (galaxies) routine. Olber didn't have a clue that other galaxies even existed when he dreamed up *and solved* his own so called 'paradox'. He also had *no* idea about distances, and the distances are so large that when we look up at the night sky we can't even see the surfaces of 200 billion stars in our own galaxy.
Didn't you even read the Lerner quote I posted, or didn't you comprehend it?

Lerner himself makes it abundantly clear in the abstract that constant surface brightness applies to the entire (non expanding) Universe, and not some finite distance, as you continue to parrot!

Also, since your linked Alcock-Paczynski cosmological test included Lerner’s model (static universe with a linear Hubble law) and it failed that test, why are you still interested in it, even in the slightest way? :confused:
 
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Michael

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Didn't you even read the Lerner quote I posted, or didn't you comprehend it?

I read it, and I comprehended it. That's why I pointed out that the term "surface brightness" probably does have some meaning as it relates to CCD images from telescopes. It *doesn't* mean much in terms of your missing 200 billion stars however. What you're calling "flux" is typically referred to as "brightness" as it relates to the inverse square law, and once that flux drops below the threshold of human eyesight, the so called 'surface' of those 200 billions stars looks dark to our naked eye, not 'bright' as Olber imagined and *assumed*.

Lerner himself makes it abundantly clear in the abstract that constant surface brightness applies to the entire (non expanding) Universe, and not some finite distance, as you continue to parrot!

In an age where we can point Hubble or some other telescope at the same "dark" spot for days on end, and use CCD's to 'add up' the few straggler photons from those dark areas over massive periods of time, it's probably true that so called "surface brightness" seems to be preserved in such images. However, that kind of technology doesn't apply to human eyes, or your 200 billion missing stars, and 100,000 missing galaxies at night.

Also, since your linked Alcock-Paczynski cosmological test included Lerner’s model (static universe with a linear Hubble law) and it failed that test, why are you still interested in it, even in the slightest way? :confused:

Well for starters because Holushko's tired light model *passed* that very same test, and Lerner is *also* implying that light loses momentum to the medium (tired light) just like Holushko. Apparently the primary difference is that they're simply using a different mathematical expression to describe it.

https://physicsworld.com/a/satellite-galaxies-of-centaurus-a-defy-dark-matter-model/
Mature Galaxies in Young Universe At Odds with Theory

Do you have *any* idea how many so called 'tests' that the LCDM model has failed, both in the lab and in direct observation? I love how you wish to toss out all *other* cosmological models based on a single failed test, whereas you simply sweep *dozens* of your own failed tests right under the rug.

If one failed test destroys a whole model, your solar model is also toast:

Weak solar convection – approximately 100 times slower than scientists had previously projected

Your convection predictions were off by two whole orders of magnitude, and nobody has fixed that serious problem in over five years.
 
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Michael

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FYI, selfsim, before you get too smug about failed tests, you might take a gander at the conclusion section of Lerner's recent paper. Your galaxy evolution models seem to *bomb* his tests. I posted the conclusion section for you here, along with some relevant links.

Eric Lerner is presenting his recent paper on a static universe on PhysicsForums

It's going to take me awhile to slog through his most recent paper, but from what I'm reading, your LCDM model has problems too. :)
 
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