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Before Birth

Do you believe we were with God before birth

  • Yes

  • No

  • Unsure


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LegacyJB

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Legacy has yet to even address the simple fact that the Bible states that God created "all things".

I've already stated what the doctrine is. God created all things with material.

His faith posits that there are things that God did not create, such as co-eternal matter, intelligences, etc. The fact that God did not create these things shows that in Mormonism, God is not the creator of "all things", since those things were not created by Him.

Unlike you, my faith allows me to believe God used matter to create all things. My faith is strong enough. We certainly believe God is the Creator of all things. You do what others do: give a limited amount of answer. "Because you believe this, you have to believe this." That's your attitude. In case you missed it, we believe God is the Creator of all things and He has created all things using matter.

He further cannot engage the fact that even if God fashioned some things from something else, that something else must have been fashioned by something else, and something else, until we get to the God created the original "something else" from nothing, since He created "all things", as the Bible teaches.

When has matter not existed?

Creation of all things negates any belief that there were things that God did not create, i.e. pre-existing matter.

Already explained this multiple times on here. You and steve just don't seem to pay attention.
 
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NYCGuy

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I've already stated what the doctrine is. God created all things with material.

Right, and he didn't create the material. This means that there was something (material) that He did not create. Therefore He did not create all things.


Unlike you, my faith allows me to believe God used matter to create all things. My faith is strong enough. We certainly believe God is the Creator of all things. You do what others do: give a limited amount of answer. "Because you believe this, you have to believe this." That's your attitude. In case you missed it, we believe God is the Creator of all things and He has created all things using matter.

Right, and he didn't create the material. This means that there was something (material) that He did not create. Therefore He did not create all things.


When has matter not existed?

It did not exist until God created it, since He created all things, which logically includes matter.

Where does the Bible say that matter has always existed? None of the ancient prophets believed that, and the idea is foreign to ancient Judaism and Christianity. It was invented by Joseph Smith.


Already explained this multiple times on here. You and steve just don't seem to pay attention.

No, you aren't paying attention, and it seems as if you cannot employ logic.

-God is the creator of "all things". That means everything.
-LDS claim there are some "things", such as matter, and intelligences, that God did not create.
-If there are some "things" that God did not create, that means (at least for those that understand basic English) He did not create "all things". You seem to want to separate co-eternal matter from "all things", which makes absolutely no sense, since it is a "thing".
 
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drstevej

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The LDS believe*:
“As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be”

And that leads to humanizing God to the point he needs a Cosmos Lego Kit to assemble the cosmos.

========

*
It is clear that the teaching of President Lorenzo Snow is both acceptable and accepted doctrine in the Church today.

source: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1982/02/i-have-a-question?lang=eng
 
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St_Worm2

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God has revealed ... that matter has always existed.

Ex niliho will never be considered a Biblical stand because neither the prophets, apostles, nor Christ have taught it.

Flesh and Bone!

Still waiting for answers to the first two questions below. The third question is a new one that simply requires clarity.
1) When and how did God reveal to us that matter has always existed .. :scratch:

2) Creatio Ex Nihilo has been the teaching of every church within Christendom, Protestant, Baptist, RC, EO, etc., for Millennia because we all believe that's what the Bible clearly teaches. Can you name one that doesn't?

3) God is not "spirit" according to your/LDS theology, rather he is "flesh and bone"? What does that mean, exactly? Does he have to do things like eat and breath? Does he sleep? I apologize if these questions of mine seem too half-witted or pedestrian, but what you are saying concening this aspect of the nature of God is so opposed to what Christianity teaches that I feel like I need to ask them to truly understand. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks!

--David
 
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Ironhold

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drstevej

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Did it become perfected or has it always been perfect?

The Book of Abraham is a funery notice forgery. That is the flimsiest of evidence. No more veracity than a obit from the Salt Lake paper.
 
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Ironhold

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The LDS believe*:
“As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be”

And that leads to humanizing God to the point he needs a Cosmos Lego Kit to assemble the cosmos.

========

*

source: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1982/02/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

You never played with Legos, did you?

Not all Lego sets even have instructions; they're just bricks to be assembled as people see fit.

Those sets that do have instructions sometimes have multiple instructions, allowing people to build the same set in multiple fashions.

This is all presuming, of course, that people even bother with the instructions in the first place.

Most Lego sets usually come with extra pieces. What I do is assemble the set as per the instructions first, both to see the general concept behind the build and to see what pieces are, indeed extra. In some instances, I like a build well enough as it is, and the parts go in the parts pile for other builds. In other instances, I take the design and tinker with it, using a mix of spare parts and parts from the parts pile to modify and adjust things as I see fit.

In a few instances, I'll take some pieces from the parts pile and hammer something together based on nothing more than my imagination. For example, I took some wing pieces and a few other bits I had left over and created a little "Transformer" figure. The wings "transform" into the arms (re: they clip onto the sides of the base), while the nose "transforms" into the feet (ditto); the rear defaults into the face.

I'm not alone in doing this; I'm on a toy collector forum, and some of the other Lego collectors operate in the same fashion.


So for you to deride the concept of "organizing from nothing" and "playing with Legos" tells me that you owe your inner child a long-overdue apology and a trip to the toy store. I'd recommend starting with a set from the "Creator" assortment.
 
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BigDaddy4

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You never played with Legos, did you?

Not all Lego sets even have instructions; they're just bricks to be assembled as people see fit.

Those sets that do have instructions sometimes have multiple instructions, allowing people to build the same set in multiple fashions.

This is all presuming, of course, that people even bother with the instructions in the first place.

Most Lego sets usually come with extra pieces. What I do is assemble the set as per the instructions first, both to see the general concept behind the build and to see what pieces are, indeed extra. In some instances, I like a build well enough as it is, and the parts go in the parts pile for other builds. In other instances, I take the design and tinker with it, using a mix of spare parts and parts from the parts pile to modify and adjust things as I see fit.

In a few instances, I'll take some pieces from the parts pile and hammer something together based on nothing more than my imagination. For example, I took some wing pieces and a few other bits I had left over and created a little "Transformer" figure. The wings "transform" into the arms (re: they clip onto the sides of the base), while the nose "transforms" into the feet (ditto); the rear defaults into the face.

I'm not alone in doing this; I'm on a toy collector forum, and some of the other Lego collectors operate in the same fashion.


So for you to deride the concept of "organizing from nothing" and "playing with Legos" tells me that you owe your inner child a long-overdue apology and a trip to the toy store. I'd recommend starting with a set from the "Creator" assortment.

I loved Legos. Had a whole city and space station.

Regardless, your attempt at an analogy is not accurate. God would have created the Legos, does not need any instructions to assemble, and did not make any "extra pieces".

I liked the attempt, but it is way off base.
 
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drstevej

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I loved Legos. Had a whole city and space station.

Regardless, your attempt at an analogy is not accurate. God would have created the Legos, does not need any instructions to assemble, and did not make any "extra pieces".

I liked the attempt, but it is way off base.

What he ^^^ said.
 
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Legacy has yet to even address the simple fact that the Bible states that God created "all things". His faith posits that there are things that God did not create, such as co-eternal matter, intelligences, etc. The fact that God did not create these things shows that in Mormonism, God is not the creator of "all things", since those things were not created by Him.

He further cannot engage the fact that even if God fashioned some things from something else, that something else must have been fashioned by something else, and something else, until we get to the God created the original "something else" from nothing, since He created "all things", as the Bible teaches.

Creation of all things negates any belief that there were things that God did not create, i.e. pre-existing matter.

Then by your standard, God is the architect and designer of evil. Either direct creation, or one of His sub-creations went awry.


All things that were created, were created by God. Things that have existed eternally were not created, therefore, God still created all things.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Could this indicate that some things simply were not made, but always were. But the things that were made, were made by God?
 
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It still holds true, in interest of the OP, that if we were ultimately created from nothing by God, then everything we are was ultimately created by God. Our personalities and character are different by the seeds of our creation, if ex-nihilo is the source. Then why would we be judged and condemned? God would be the ultimate source of any evil.
 
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drstevej

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Yes, He spoke, and it happened. That means "something" listened and obeyed. "Nothing" cannot hear or obey, because it is still nothing. .... (and who is on first base?)

It does not, you are reading your assumptions into the text. Please show that your view is implied by the two Hebrew words,

let_there_belight.jpeg


Or is this something God revealed to you that is not in the Hebrew text?
 
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BigDaddy4

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It still holds true, in interest of the OP, that if we were ultimately created from nothing by God, then everything we are was ultimately created by God. Our personalities and character are different by the seeds of our creation, if ex-nihilo is the source. Then why would we be judged and condemned? God would be the ultimate source of any evil.

God created free will. Satan and his angels chose to disobey and be kicked out. Adam and Eve chose to eat the forbidden fruit. In this life, and this life only, we can choose to follow God through His Son Jesus Christ or not.
 
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It does not, you are reading your assumptions into the text. Please show that your view is implied by the two Hebrew words,

let_there_belight.jpeg


Or is this something God revealed to you that is not in the Hebrew text?
Why do you assume I know Hebrew? Does the Spirit speak to us in Hebrew?
 
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God created free will. Satan and his angels chose to disobey and be kicked out. Adam and Eve chose to eat the forbidden fruit. In this life, and this life only, we can choose to follow God through His Son Jesus Christ or not.
Then did Satan and his angels ever get a fair chance?
 
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