Before Birth

[St_Worm2]

God has revealed many things about Himself to man, including the fact that matter has always existed.

When and how did God do that ..

Ex niliho will never be considered a Biblical stand because neither the prophets, apostles, nor Christ have taught it. No person can take "God created all things" and claim it means "God created all things...from nothing."

But we've already shown you that's not true LJB. Creation by fiat is a fundamental belief of the church and it is most certainly taught in the Bible (or it would not be an accepted doctrine of the church). God spoke the universe into existence. Is there any church that doesn't teach that within Christendom ..

By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. Hebrews 11:3​

God isn't some mystical, immaterial Being. God is a Person. If God were not material you would have a belief equal to that of Atheism.

Wait, are you saying that LDS believe God the Father is like us, flesh and blood ..

Also, how does believing what the Bible teaches us about the Father, that "God is spirit" John 4:24, create "a belief equal to that of Atheism"? What could you possibly mean by that ..

Thanks!

--David

 

[Ironhold]

[quote=St_Worm2;65096528]

Also, how does believing what the Bible teaches us about the Father, that "God is spirit" John 4:24, create "a belief equal to that of Atheism"? What could you possibly mean by that ..

Thanks!

--David[/quote]

"God is spirit" is a metaphor, not a literal statement.

Saying "A is B" like that is almost always a metaphor.

 

[NYCGuy]

He has created all things, yes. He has not created anything from nothing. No one has demonstrated God used an ex niliho method. Ex niliho is taught out of not knowing how God operates. We don't know all things but God has revealed many things about Himself to man, including the fact that matter has always existed. Ex niliho will never be considered a Biblical stand because neither the prophets, apostles, nor Christ have taught it. No person can take "God created all things" and claim it means "God created all things...from nothing."

You still ignore the simple fact that He created "all things". If you claim that He created all things, then you simply cannot believe in co-eternal matter, since He didn't create it. By definition, that is a reject of creation of "all things". If He created "all things", then naturally, a regression back through creation necessitates that He created the very first "things" from nothing, since "all" things were created by Him. This is very simple.

If matter has not always existed then you're claiming, funny enough since this is a criticism people give about the church, God hasn't always existed. God isn't some mystical, immaterial Being. God is a Person. If God were not material you would have a belief equal to that of Atheism.

You're conflating world views, which is illogical. In the orthodox Christian view, matter has not always existed, since God created all things. God is not material either. You can't take a pinch of orthodox Christianity (i.e. mater has not always existed) and a dash of Mormonism (i.e. God is a material entity), then make an argument. The fact of the matter is that we do not accept that God is a material entity. The Son became material when He entered into this world through the Incarnation.

No, it is not equal to Atheism. We believe in God, that He exists, that He is real. The subject of whether He is material or immaterial does not take away from the belief that He exists.

Simple: it's not. Something cannot be created from nothing.

Humans can't do that. I don't judge what God can and can't do based on what we can and can't do, and our limited knowledge, which is exactly what you're doing here.

 

[Norah63]

What ever does thinking God is 'immaterial' mean?

 

[LegacyJB]

But we've already shown you that's not true LJB. Creation by fiat is a fundamental belief of the church and it is most certainly taught in the Bible (or it would not be an accepted doctrine of the church). God spoke the universe into existence. Is there any church that doesn't teach that within Christendom ..

All you and others have done is post verses that say God created. None of those references say God created anything out of nothing.

By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. Hebrews 11:3​

Paul states God didn't create things out of what we can see. That isn't the same as saying God created out of nothing. Can you see the oxygen you're breathing right now? No. However, the oxygen is still there.

Wait, are you saying that LDS believe God the Father is like us, flesh and blood ..

You haven't had many discussions with active members have you? No, I didn't say God has flesh and blood. He has flesh and bone, not blood. You yourself said we are in God's image which is true. What is our image? Physical. If our image is physical and we're in God's image then God has to have flesh and bones too. Otherwise the Bible is wrong about us being in His image.

Also, how does believing what the Bible teaches us about the Father, that "God is spirit" John 4:24, create "a belief equal to that of Atheism"? What could you possibly mean by that ..

I'm not surprised you used this. Many Christians don't seem to know what John 4:24 says. In the Greek, the indefinite article "a" is non existent. We're left with "God is spirit." However, the "is" is italics indicating the translators inserted the word into the verse. In other words, it wasn't in the original scriptures. We're left with "God spirit" or "Theos pneuma." The Greek "pneuma" means a giving of breath of life. The verse, if translated correctly, would read "God gives the breath of life." There is a similar statement made in Revelation 11:11.

Something immaterial is something without substance. Something without substance is a nothing. Atheists believe God doesn't exist and trinitarians believe God has no matter. They are identical beliefs. The only difference is trinitarians say God is real even though the Trinity theory teaches God, supposedly being immaterial, is a nothing.

 

[drstevej]

This picture is closer to depicting God creating the universe out of already existing matter.

You can post any picture you want, it won't change the fact that God doesn't create from nothing. I'm amazed as to how little the Catholics, Protestants, JWs, nondenominationals, etc know about God and the scriptures. The prophets and apostles never taught God created anything out of nothing so why should anyone believe in it? It's a philosophy created by men, not something from God.

And you missed this: "Let there be..."

 

[LegacyJB]

And you missed this: "Let there be..."

"Let there be advancement in the war" and advancement is made with material. Same concept.

 

[drstevej]

God speaks, it is there. No "light kit" needed

 

[LegacyJB]

God speaks, it is there. No "light kit" needed

So far nobody has been able to show where the scriptures say God created anything from nothing.

 

[drstevej]

So far nobody has been able to show where the scriptures say God created anything from nothing.

Not true. Read the post. Or do you not know Hebrew?

 

[St_Worm2]

God has revealed ... that matter has always existed.

Still interested in knowing when and how God revealed this to us ..

Thanks!

--David

 

[LegacyJB]

Not true. Read the post. Or do you not know Hebrew?

It states God created light. It does not say God created light out of nothing.

 

[drstevej]

It states God created light. It does not say God created light out of nothing.

He spoke
It was there

You can try this at home.

 

[LegacyJB]

He spoke
It was there

You can try this at home.

It doesn't say how it was there. Directors of movies speak. The movies are there because of the existing material. You've still shown no biblical support for your stance. You won't be able to find any.

 

[peterandrewj]

Imagination set free. Fired by scripture or fiction the result is still the same - fantasy.

Existing before existing is some flight of fancy

 

[drstevej]

It doesn't say how it was there. Directors of movies speak. The movies are there because of the existing material. You've still shown no biblical support for your stance. You won't be able to find any.

You inject the concept of a movie to avoid the issue. I have given support.

How's your Hebrew studies coming? Started yet?

 

[LegacyJB]

You inject the concept of a movie to avoid the issue. I have given support.

How's your Hebrew studies coming? Started yet?

I didn't avoid the issue. You don't like analogies do you? Still waiting for some kind of support for the false doctrine known as ex niliho.

 

[drstevej]

Analogies aren't proof. You can illustrate a wrong concept. I cited a biblical example. Exegete the text in Hebrew for us will ya?

 

[LegacyJB]

Analogies aren't proof. You can illustrate a wrong concept. I cited a biblical example. Exegete the text in Hebrew for us will ya?

You gave a verse from the Bible. You didn't show anything from it that backs your view.

 

[NYCGuy]

Legacy has yet to even address the simple fact that the Bible states that God created "all things". His faith posits that there are things that God did not create, such as co-eternal matter, intelligences, etc. The fact that God did not create these things shows that in Mormonism, God is not the creator of "all things", since those things were not created by Him.

He further cannot engage the fact that even if God fashioned some things from something else, that something else must have been fashioned by something else, and something else, until we get to the God created the original "something else" from nothing, since He created "all things", as the Bible teaches.

Creation of all things negates any belief that there were things that God did not create, i.e. pre-existing matter.