Before Birth

[St_Worm2]

We have always existed, co-eternally with God.

So God was wrong when He told us He "created" us (e.g. Genesis 1:27) .. Instead, LDS believe we are all eternal beings, just like God .. Whoa, that is certainly one Mormon belief I was never made aware of. Thanks!

If God created us from nothing ...

God created the universe ex nihilo (Genesis 1-2; Psalm 33:6; John 1:3; Hebrews 11:3; 2 Peter 3:5; Revelation 4:11 ...). We, on the other hand, were formed from the "dust of the ground" (Genesis 2:7).

Question for you as a LDS, where did matter and energy come from originally if God, who exists outside time/space, didn't create it ..

If God created these attributes and assigned them to us, what does that say about the whole idea of judgement and rewards or consequences?

God created man "in His own image", upright and perfect, as free agents with the capacity and liberty to trust and obey His lead (choose to do good), or rebel against Him (choose to do evil). Our first parents had no natural inclination to choose one way or the other. They chose poorly ..

This is enough for now. I'll finish with the rest when I understand more clearly the LDS position on the matters discussed above.

Thanks!

--David

 

[St_Worm2]

The problem with the concept that "Humanity is under condemnation due to the sins of Adam and Eve" is that Ezekiel 18 is, in essence, an extended treatise in why this is not so.

How then, one asks, can Adam and Eve be blamed for placing all of humanity under condemnation?

Instead, the church holds that we can't just sit around blaming Adam and Eve for whatever we ourselves do; we have to own up to our own actions and make amends accordingly.

I mean no disrespect Ironhold, but you don't seem to understand what the church means when it speaks of, "Original Sin". So far the discussions in this thread have continued to have something to do with the OP's question about where we were before the world began, but this is starting to seem like a total departure from the subject at hand. I'm willing to discuss "Original Sin" if you'd like to (and why Ezekiel 18 has nothing to do with it). Perhaps a new thread would be in order if that's the case?

Let me know!

Yours and His,
David

"Through one man sin entered into the world,
and death through sin"
Romans 5:12

"In Adam, all die"
1 Cor 15:22

"We (are) by nature children of wrath"
Ephesians 2:3
​

 

[2ducklow]

actually the star ship Enterprise brings souls down from heaven every time Scotty beams um down to earth. Capitan kirk takes over when Scotty gets tired or needs some sleep. Thing is though in your prelife, when you existed before you exist, you need to say "Beam me down Scotty" or Scotty won't beam you down into a physical body.

It's really a shame the way they misrepresented the Starship Enterprises true mission on TV and in the movies.

 

[LegacyJB]

So God was wrong when He told us He "created" us (e.g. Genesis 1:27) .. Instead, LDS believe we are all eternal beings, just like God .. Whoa, that is certainly one Mormon belief I was never made aware of. Thanks!


God created the universe ex nihilo (Genesis 1-2; Psalm 33:6; John 1:3; Hebrews 11:3; 2 Peter 3:5; Revelation 4:11 ...). We, on the other hand, were formed from the "dust of the ground" (Genesis 2:7).

Question for you as a LDS, where did matter and energy come from originally if God, who exists outside time/space, didn't create it ..


God created man "in His own image", upright and perfect, as free agents with the capacity and liberty to trust and obey His lead (choose to do good), or rebel against Him (choose to do evil). Our first parents had no natural inclination to choose one way or the other. They chose poorly ..

This is enough for now. I'll finish with the rest when I understand more clearly the LDS position on the matters discussed above.

Thanks!

--David

It refers to the creation of our flesh. If we aren't eternal beings nobody will be able to gain eternal life. What does it mean, to you, when the scriptures say we'll gain eternal life? We did live with good before this life. To deny this is to not really know God.

Nothing was created ex niliho. The scriptures speak nothing on this. How can something be created from nothing? It can't.

Where did it come from? The matter has been there. God isn't an everywhere-nowhere spirit. He is our Father. Until you understand His nature, including the fact that He has a physical body, you will not truly understand yourself.

Adam and Eve didn't choose poorly. If they didn't eat the fruit we wouldn't be here.

 

[drstevej]

How can something be created from nothing? It can't.

Prove this. Prove that God can not do this.

 

[LegacyJB]

Prove this. Prove that God can not do this.

FYI, I don't do well with demands.

Have you ever tried to make something out of nothing? Can you make a dictionary out of space? It isn't possible is it? Nothing in scripture even alludes to ex niliho. You're the one who believes God created things out of ex niliho so the burden of proof is on you for proving God works that way if you wish to back up your belief. Your choice.

Ex niliho isn't a true doctrine. It's not from God.

 

[drstevej]

I am from Ga Tech... but I can't do that

+++++++++

He is not an evolved man

He can do that.

"Let there be..."

 

[NYCGuy]

FYI, I don't do well with demands.

Have you ever tried to make something out of nothing? Can you make a dictionary out of space? It isn't possible is it? Nothing in scripture even alludes to ex niliho. You're the one who believes God created things out of ex niliho so the burden of proof is on you for proving God works that way if you wish to back up your belief. Your choice.

Ex niliho isn't a true doctrine. It's not from God.

I hope you're not attempting to say what God can and can't do based on what man can and can't do at the moment...

 

[drstevej]

I hope you're not attempting to say what God can and can't do based on what man can and can't do at the moment...

The Famous LDS couplet:

As man is, God once was...​

Not biblical but very LDS.

 

[LegacyJB]

I hope you're not attempting to say what God can and can't do based on what man can and can't do at the moment...

It's not about saying what He can and can't do. God does things in an orderly way. He has never created anything out of nothing. Ex niliho is false doctrine.

 

[LegacyJB]

Posted by: LegacyJB
Original Content:

I am from Ga Tech... but I can't do that

+++++++++

He is not an evolved man

He can do that.

"Let there be..."

This picture is closer to depicting God creating the universe out of already existing matter.

You can post any picture you want, it won't change the fact that God doesn't create from nothing. <staff edit> The prophets and apostles never taught God created anything out of nothing so why should anyone believe in it? It's a philosophy created by men, not something from God.

 

[St_Worm2]

Have you ever tried to make something out of nothing? Can you make a dictionary out of space? It isn't possible is it? Nothing in scripture even alludes to ex niliho. You're the one who believes God created things out of ex niliho so the burden of proof is on you for proving God works that way if you wish to back up your belief. Your choice.

Hi LJB, no, none of us can make something out of nothing, but we exist within the limits of time and space and WE'RE NOT GOD ..

That said, now I'll try a little "alluding"..................................

By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of His mouth all their host.

Psalm 33:6​

All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:3

By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
Hebrews 11:3
​

 

[Norah63]

Just now reading a book about a small boy that had a trip to heaven and saw his sister who died before she was born, and went back home to be with God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Very inspiring book. Our heavenly home is where we will all have the unity that now is lacking.

 

[LegacyJB]

Hi LJB, no, none of us can make something out of nothing, but we exist within the limits of time and space and WE'RE NOT GOD ..

That said, now I'll try a little "alluding"..................................

By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of His mouth all their host.
Psalm 33:6​

All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:3

By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
Hebrews 11:3
​

Those are good verses indeed. The only problem with trying to use them for ex niliho is they don't say things were created out of nothing, just that things were created. We're not God but God has order to how He does things. He isn't someone who does things out of random. If so, He would not be God.

When a potter creates an art out of clay the result is still a creation; it was merely created out of existing material. Appropriately, the Lord is also referred to as the potter. Not only for our spiritual well-being but for the physical things too. He is a potter that creates out of existing matter.

 

[NYCGuy]

Those are good verses indeed. The only problem with trying to use them for ex niliho is they don't say things were created out of nothing, just that things were created. We're not God but God has order to how He does things. He isn't someone who does things out of random. If so, He would not be God.

When a potter creates an art out of clay the result is still a creation; it was merely created out if existing material. Appropriately, the Lord is also referred to as the potter. Not only for our spiritual well-being but for the physical things too. He is a potter that creates out of existing matter.

Those of us that believe in creation ex nihilo believe that God, as the scriptures teach, created "all things". Yes, he may have used matter to form things, however ultimately, that matter was created by Him, since He created "all things". If there are things He did not create, such as pre-existing matter, intelligences, etc, then that means that He did not really create "all things". The orthodox view of God and creation is therefore the Biblical one, since it teaches that God really did create "all things".

 

[LegacyJB]

Those of us that believe in creation ex nihilo believe that God, as the scriptures teach, created "all things". Yes, he may have used matter to form things, however ultimately, that matter was created by Him, since He created "all things". If there are things He did not create, such as pre-existing matter, intelligences, etc, then that means that He did not really create "all things". The orthodox view of God and creation is therefore the Biblical one, since it teaches that God really did create "all things".

The idea of God creating everything from nothing isn't a biblical stand. Ex niliho hasn't happened. Again, God is an orderly God. Many things people claim to be "orthodox" are not found in the words of the prophets and Christ in the scriptures. Matter and energy have always existed. Here's a question: how is anything created out of nothing?

 

[NYCGuy]

The idea of God creating everything from nothing isn't a biblical stand. Ex niliho hasn't happened. Again, God is an orderly God. Many things people claim to be "orthodox" are not found in the words of the prophets and Christ in the scriptures. Matter and energy have always existed. Here's a question: how is anything created out of nothing?

As was already demonstrated, the scriptures clearly teach that God created all things. That is why creation ex nihilo is taught, because the prophets have taught that God created all things. If you believe that there is uncreated matter, that intelligences are co-eternal with God, etc, then you don't believe, as the scriptures teach, that God created "all things". It is for this clear, simple reason that creation ex nihilo is the Biblical stand.

The Bible nowhere teaches that matter and energy have always existed, nor did any of the ancient prophets teach such a thing.

Who knows how anything is created out of nothing? I don't judge what God can or can't do, or how He does something, based on man's limited scientific knowledge and potential (heck, I certainly would not judge God based on man's scientific knowledge during the Biblical period). As the scriptures teach, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 55:8).

 

[Ironhold]

As was already demonstrated, the scriptures clearly teach that God created all things. That is why creation ex nihilo is taught, because the prophets have taught that God created all things. If you believe that there is uncreated matter, that intelligences are co-eternal with God, etc, then you don't believe, as the scriptures teach, that God created "all things". It is for this clear, simple reason that creation ex nihilo is the Biblical stand.

The Bible nowhere teaches that matter and energy have always existed, nor did any of the ancient prophets teach such a thing.

Who knows how anything is created out of nothing? I don't judge what God can or can't do, or how He does something, based on man's limited scientific knowledge and potential (heck, I certainly would not judge God based on man's scientific knowledge during the Biblical period). As the scriptures teach, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 55:8).

A person can turn this line of reasoning right around on you by arguing that since you regard humans as having such a limited perspective it could well mean that our limited perspective prevents us from seeing anything but what God created in its final form, without us being able to see what it was formed from or how it was formed.

 

[MormonFriend]

So God was wrong when He told us He "created" us (e.g. Genesis 1:27) .. ...

Of course not. You are breaking up my paragraphs that contain the explanation of my opening statement, questioning my opening statement, and negating the explanation I already gave. If my explanation didn't make sense, or lacks clarity, please, .... question that!

I said: "We have always existed, co-eternally with God. What ever form or shape or size, we do not know."

Now that you ask, I can add for clarification that we did not exist before as we do now. What we are now is God's creation, still in the process. A potter makes his pottery from raw materials. That is the potter's creation.

Instead, LDS believe we are all eternal beings, just like God .. ...

Just like God? Wherever did you hear that? God is, and always has been perfect and all knowing. We are not and were not perfect. But we can become like Him, if we are malleable, and allow Him to shape us as He sees fit. Jesus is and always was perfect, and He went through this process by learning obedience through the things that He suffered. The potter can not shape his creations with bad clay. God can not shape us with existing pride. Pride must be extracted as dross is extracted from gold via fire and refinement. We cannot fully follow Jesus, unless we pass through that fire.

God created the universe ex nihilo (Genesis 1-2; Psalm 33:6; John 1:3; Hebrews 11:3; 2 Peter 3:5; Revelation 4:11 ...). We, on the other hand, were formed from the "dust of the ground" (Genesis 2:7).

I looked up all your examples. I do not see any teaching on the subject of how God creates, nor do any say that His creations are from nothing. I do see a lot of potential ambiguity, due to the imperfections of language, whereby people could derive several theories on the how God creates.

Question for you as a LDS, where did matter and energy come from originally if God, who exists outside time/space, didn't create it .. ...

As for what I understand, all matter has always existed. Infinite things are not fully understood by finite minds. Faith is a requirement in Christianity.
Energy? Good question, I have not thought on its origin. But thought alone is futile. The Spirit reveals truth, which on this topic has not been revealed to me. I could surmise that all matter represents potential energy, and when matter responds to, and obeys God's words, that potential energy could/would become kinetic energy.

God created man "in His own image", upright and perfect, as free agents with the capacity and liberty to trust and obey His lead (choose to do good), or rebel against Him (choose to do evil). ...

And this illustrates my point. Men choose differently, because they are different! And this difference represents eternal rewards, or eternal consequences. What is the origin of these differences in character, personality, disposition, if men are created ex nihilo? (Keep in mind that the "dust of the earth" was created ex nihilo by your beliefs, so that too would be the origin of man.) What about Judas? His demise was foretold long before he was created. Did God create Judas for the specific purpose of becoming perdition? Some say Judas had the power to choose. Did he have the power to choose contrary to God's word, and make God a liar?

Our first parents had no natural inclination to choose one way or the other. They chose poorly .. ...

If they had no natural inclination one way or the other, then how can they be judged? They didn't know right from wrong.

LDS views their choice as wise and necessary for all mankind, to fulfill God's plan. Knowing that they would fall, a Redeemer had already been chosen to mend the consequences of their choice so that nothing was lost. By way of what they did (the fall), everything was gained for all mankind through the Redeemer. [BIBLE]1 Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.[/BIBLE] God created them in His image and in His LIKENESS They could not become LIKE Him, without knowing good from evil.
[BIBLE]Genesis 3:22¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:... [/BIBLE] So the creation was not complete, until they made choices. And even then, the process of refinement, to be more in the likeness of God, was not complete until they (we) learn to take this knowledge of good and evil, and apply it as God does. That is to love good (truth) and hate evil (error). Our actions reveal what we love and what we hate, and we soon learn that we are not fully in the likeness of God, nor could we become so without a Savior to love us and show us how, and also to rescue and cleanse us from our sins along the way as we falter while we are learning.

 

[LegacyJB]

As was already demonstrated, the scriptures clearly teach that God created all things. That is why creation ex nihilo is taught, because the prophets have taught that God created all things. If you believe that there is uncreated matter, that intelligences are co-eternal with God, etc, then you don't believe, as the scriptures teach, that God created "all things". It is for this clear, simple reason that creation ex nihilo is the Biblical stand.

He has created all things, yes. He has not created anything from nothing. No one has demonstrated God used an ex niliho method. Ex niliho is taught out of not knowing how God operates. We don't know all things but God has revealed many things about Himself to man, including the fact that matter has always existed. Ex niliho will never be considered a Biblical stand because neither the prophets, apostles, nor Christ have taught it. No person can take "God created all things" and claim it means "God created all things...from nothing."

The Bible nowhere teaches that matter and energy have always existed, nor did any of the ancient prophets teach such a thing.

If matter has not always existed then you're claiming, funny enough since this is a criticism people give about the church, God hasn't always existed. God isn't some mystical, immaterial Being. God is a Person. If God were not material you would have a belief equal to that of Atheism.

Who knows how anything is created out of nothing? I don't judge what God can or can't do, or how He does something, based on man's limited scientific knowledge and potential (heck, I certainly would not judge God based on man's scientific knowledge during the Biblical period). As the scriptures teach, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 55:8).

Simple: it's not. Something cannot be created from nothing.