Before Birth

[MormonFriend]

Satan was not created evil,he became that way....

Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."...

But the difference in our explanations begs the question if Satan was created from nothing, or if his (and our own) creation was from other existing matter.

 

[St_Worm2]

The term is better expressed as pre-earth existence. It is quite simple, actually. The seeds of our character come from what and who we were before the advent of our earth life. The experiences in life cause our true colors to sprout, and we can choose to be refined through repentance, which requires enduring to the end of our trials.

Assuming this pre-earth existence you speak of is true for a second, how did we come to exist in it, by God creating us and placing us there, or by some other means?

Thanks!

--David

 

[Ironhold]

Assuming this pre-earth existence you speak of is true for a second, how did we come to exist in it, by God creating us and placing us there, or by some other means?

Thanks!

--David

*steps in*

Here's one better:

Gospel Principles, ch. 2: "Our Heavenly Family."

This is an actual chapter from an official LDS manual.

 

[drstevej]

*steps in*

Here's one better:

Gospel Principles, ch. 2: "Our Heavenly Family."

This is an actual chapter from an official LDS manual.

Love this quote from your source:

We learned that He would provide an earth for us where we would prove ourselves (see Abraham 3:24–26). A veil would cover our memories, and we would forget our heavenly home.

Reminds me of Men in Black...

 

[Ironhold]

Any actual comments on the theology itself?

 

[drstevej]

Any actual comments on the theology itself?

Are LDS manuals scripture or doctrine?

 

[Norah63]

Prov. 26:2 says a curse causeless shall not come.
They all have to have a reason to start up.
Bringing curses on is a personal responsibility that should be avoided.

 

[Ironhold]

Are LDS manuals scripture or doctrine?

You're splitting hairs.

If you'd read the chapter, you'd see the scriptures and statements from church leaders that are used as sources for what the chapter says.

 

[drstevej]

You're splitting hairs.

If you'd read the chapter, you'd see the scriptures and statements from church leaders that are used as sources for what the chapter says.

That does not answer my question.

 

[Ironhold]

That does not answer my question.

Yes; it does.

One would think that an official Sunday school manual would represent official theology.

 

[drstevej]

Yes; it does.

One would think that an official Sunday school manual would represent official theology.

So a simple "yes" would have done?

And this is doctrine too since it is in the same SS material

Then the priest or Melchizedek Priesthood holder blesses the water, and it too is passed to the members. Jesus gave His disciples wine when He introduced the sacrament. However, in a latter-day revelation He has said that it doesn’t matter what we eat and drink during the sacrament as long as we remember Him (see D&C 27:2–3). Today, Latter-day Saints drink water instead of wine.

 

[Ironhold]

So a simple "yes" would have done?

And this is doctrine too since it is in the same SS material

... and your problem with that is?

 

[Moodshadow]

... and your problem with that is?

I am not presuming to respond for Dr. Steve, but that very subject was covered fairly well in the Section 89 thread. It's still up if you'd like to peruse it again to refresh your memory.

 

[St_Worm2]

*steps in*

Here's one better:

Gospel Principles, ch. 2: "Our Heavenly Family."

This is an actual chapter from an official LDS manual.

This is what LDS believe? I thought you guys followed Biblical teaching, at least to some degree .. Almost all of that article stands in direct opposition to the clear teaching of Scripture.

There is so much contradictory material there, I wouldn't know where to begin. For now though, let's follow the train of thought MF began, that of how we came to be and why we act the way we do.

For that we'll need to go toward the bottom of the article you posited which reads:

"A veil would cover our memories, and we would forget our heavenly home. This would be necessary so we could exercise our agency to choose good or evil without being influenced by the memory of living with our Heavenly Father ... At this council we also learned that because of our weakness, all of us except little children would sin."
​

Your article paints a picture of humans who, like Adam and Eve before us, can choose to sin or not to sin (IOW, to do evil or good w/o an inclination towards either). But then the article mentions a "weakness" that we all possess, and that "all of us .. would sin" eventually because of it. If every human being everywhere is born with the same "weakness" (as this article teaches), then the fault of our sinful behavior is God's .. or perhaps better, Gods' (who made us that way). Christianity on the other hand, lays the blame for the "weakness" we all have upon us and our (human) progenitors (who chose to disobey God apart from any inherent "weakness").

God, according to Christianity and the Bible, "made man upright" .. Ecc 7:29 and "in His own image" .. Gen 1:27. He, therefore, is not to blame, we are (see Romans 5:12) ..

There is so much more, but do you now see that the problem you believed belonged to Christianity, actually belongs to you (if this is, indeed, what LDS teach).

Yours and His,
David

"Before Me there was no God formed,
and there will be none after Me"
Isaiah 43:10b​

 

[Ironhold]

I am not presuming to respond for Dr. Steve, but that very subject was covered fairly well in the Section 89 thread. It's still up if you'd like to peruse it again to refresh your memory.

Then why did he bring it up here instead of in that thread?

 

[Ironhold]

This is what LDS believe? I thought you guys followed Biblical teaching, at least to some degree .. Almost all of that article stands in direct opposition to the clear teaching of Scripture.

There is so much contradictory material there, I wouldn't know where to begin. For now though, let's follow the train of thought MF began, that of how we came to be and why we act the way we do.

For that we'll need to go toward the bottom of the article you posited which reads:

"A veil would cover our memories, and we would forget our heavenly home. This would be necessary so we could exercise our agency to choose good or evil without being influenced by the memory of living with our Heavenly Father ... At this council we also learned that because of our weakness, all of us except little children would sin."
​

Your article paints a picture of humans who, like Adam and Eve before us, can choose to sin or not to sin (IOW, to do evil or good w/o an inclination towards either). But then the article mentions a "weakness" that we all possess, and that "all of us .. would sin" eventually because of it. If every human being everywhere is born with the same "weakness" (as this article teaches), then the fault of our sinful behavior is God's .. or perhaps better, Gods' (who made us that way). Christianity on the other hand, lays the blame for the "weakness" we all have upon us and our (human) progenitors (who chose to disobey God apart from any inherent "weakness").

God, according to Christianity and the Bible, "made man upright" .. Ecc 7:29 and "in His own image" .. Gen 1:27. He, therefore, is not to blame, we are (see Romans 5:12) ..

There is so much more, but do you now see that the problem you believed belonged to Christianity, actually belongs to you (if this is, indeed, what LDS teach).

Yours and His,
David

"Before Me there was no God formed,
and there will be none after Me"
Isaiah 43:10b​

The problem with the concept that "Humanity is under condemnation due to the sins of Adam and Eve" is that Ezekiel 18 is, in essence, an extended treatise in why this is not so.

As the chapter opens,
1 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


In this chapter, Ezekiel states that individuals are only held to blame for their own sins, and not the sins of their parents or offspring (providing that, in the case of the latter, the offspring were taught correctly in the first place).



This concept - that people are accountable for their own sins and not those of their parents or offspring - was repeated by Jeremiah in chapter 31 of his work:



27 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.


How then, one asks, can Adam and Eve be blamed for placing all of humanity under condemnation?






Instead, the church holds that we can't just sit around blaming Adam and Eve for whatever we ourselves do; we have to own up to our own actions and make amends accordingly.



Interestingly enough, "Heading Out To The Highway" by Judas Priest presents a secular take on the concept - in addition to some general good advice about life - if people can get past the extended metaphor in play:



You can hang in a left or hang in a right
The choice it is yours to do as you might
The road is open wide to place your bidding
Now, wherever you turn, wherever you go
If you get it wrong, at least you can know
There's miles and miles to put it back together!

 

[n2thelight]

But the difference in our explanations begs the question if Satan was created from nothing, or if his (and our own) creation was from other existing matter.

Not understanding what you mean,what I know is that,God created us all....Wheather from something or nothing,He did not create us evil............

He created us all at the same time,and had satan not rebelled,we never would have been made flesh......We were there with Him when He created the earth,as we all shouted for joy,per Job....The earth was created perfect,not void and without form,it became that way after the fall,ie the katabal.....

 

[n2thelight]

This is what LDS believe? I thought you guys followed Biblical teaching, at least to some degree .. Almost all of that article stands in direct opposition to the clear teaching of Scripture.

There is so much contradictory material there, I wouldn't know where to begin. For now though, let's follow the train of thought MF began, that of how we came to be and why we act the way we do.

For that we'll need to go toward the bottom of the article you posited which reads:

"A veil would cover our memories, and we would forget our heavenly home. This would be necessary so we could exercise our agency to choose good or evil without being influenced by the memory of living with our Heavenly Father ... At this council we also learned that because of our weakness, all of us except little children would sin."
​

Your article paints a picture of humans who, like Adam and Eve before us, can choose to sin or not to sin (IOW, to do evil or good w/o an inclination towards either). But then the article mentions a "weakness" that we all possess, and that "all of us .. would sin" eventually because of it. If every human being everywhere is born with the same "weakness" (as this article teaches), then the fault of our sinful behavior is God's .. or perhaps better, Gods' (who made us that way). Christianity on the other hand, lays the blame for the "weakness" we all have upon us and our (human) progenitors (who chose to disobey God apart from any inherent "weakness").

God, according to Christianity and the Bible, "made man upright" .. Ecc 7:29 and "in His own image" .. Gen 1:27. He, therefore, is not to blame, we are (see Romans 5:12) ..

There is so much more, but do you now see that the problem you believed belonged to Christianity, actually belongs to you (if this is, indeed, what LDS teach).

Yours and His,
David

"Before Me there was no God formed,
and there will be none after Me"

Isaiah 43:10b​

Im not an LDS,let me explain how I see it from scripture...

God created all souls at the same time,per Job

Job 38:

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

We are those that shouted for joy when He created this earth(perfectly)we lived here on earth,not in flesh but with substance....

When satan planed his coup,some of us followed satan....Instaed of God destroying satan and all those that followed,He recalled us,for lack of a better word,back to heaven,where His plan for us was to be born of woman,with a choice of who we would serve,Him or satan...

We are quickly approaching the 7th day,ie Day of the Lord,and I feel those who followed him then are following him now,meaning,they have been born recently.....

It is His love for us that He gave us this chance to love Him,that's also why and how some are of the elect,and been justified,from what took place,millions of years ago.....Which is why He could say Jacob I loved Esau I hated....It's a lot deeper than Him just knowing everything....

That's my short reply,hope it helped........

 

[MormonFriend]

Originally Posted by MormonFriend
The term is better expressed as pre-earth existence. It is quite simple, actually. The seeds of our character come from what and who we were before the advent of our earth life. The experiences in life cause our true colors to sprout, and we can choose to be refined through repentance, which requires enduring to the end of our trials.

Assuming this pre-earth existence you speak of is true for a second, how did we come to exist in it, by God creating us and placing us there, or by some other means?

Thanks!

--David

We have always existed, co-eternally with God. What ever form or shape or size, we do not know. But an intelligence always existed for every form of creation. It answers the voice of God and responds to His Love and Leadership, yet there are intelligences that may rebel to the same. This is where the "true colors", which I spoke of above, stem from.

If God created us from nothing (which is an oxymoron*), then every attribute associated to each individual stems from its creator. That cannot be so with God, our Eternal Father. Those who turn to evil, or refuse to receive light and truth when it is presented to them, demonstrate a particular attribute. Lucifer was one of great potential who has a selfish and prideful attribute. Jehova is One of ultimate potential, who has an attribute of humility and selflessness. If God created these attributes and assigned them to us, what does that say about the whole idea of judgement and rewards or consequences?

But knowing that God created all eternal intelligences to become His children, and provided every oppotunity to realize individule potential, this presents understandable purpose to life, our trials and opposition, our judgement, and our ultimate destiny. The wheat must be separated from the tares, where mercy and justice harmonize with love. As you gradually put the pieces of the puzzle together, by personal revelation as you seek, the image of this love begins to appear. Then, the true meaning and power of "free will" comes to view as we see how our choices forge our future.

Someone mentioned that God did not create evil. So true! Evil has always existed, as eternally as God is. God is, and always has been good. Would "good" have meaning or definition if its contrast (evil) did not exist?

I would like to make a definition of evil, that hopefully blends well with all other definitions of the same. Evil: The mis-use, or abuse of that which is good. God created all things, and declared them "good"! Then He created man in a controlled environment to see how each individual uses the good that surrounds him, after teaching man right from wrong, and giving man the freedom of choice to use the good for which purpose it was created. Now, remember that if God created man from nothing, then how man chooses to use the good depends on that assigned attribute of selflessness, or selfishness that God gave him. If that were the case, then God would ultimately be the architect of evil. That cannot be so. But having created man from eternally existing and intelligent matter, the end results of man's 'non compulsory' choices not only reveal the true colors of character, but also isolate God from being the creator of evil.

(*Creation out of nothing is oxymoronic because if you can take "nothing", and create from it, then "nothing" had to be something)

 

[St_Worm2]

The earth was created perfect,not void and without form,it became that way after the fall.....

Leaving everything else you said in your post to the side for a moment, what can you possibly mean by the sentence I quoted here ..