Before Birth

[drstevej]

I believe that we existed with God before our birth on Earth.

Biblical Proof?

 

[drstevej]

There was one Gospel. It was given to 12 Disciples. and heard by 7 women as well. Christ said to teach it to all nations.

Now if you believe Pauls is the same. so be it. If you believe the MMLJ is it, so be it. If you believe the Bible is the Gospel, so be it.

But some believers accept Gospel as wisdom from God through Christ. It is an old English term from God and spell. Personally, I believe the Disciple Thomas over Paul. To me, the sheep hear the shepherds voice. I don't follow dictated scriptures of men, but all scriptures containing a place where I hear the shepherds voice.

A gift is not something given freely. We earn it by crucifixion and bearing the cross of Christ. Becoming one with him. We do pay for it with our own free will. Do you need for me to explain that further?

As to a make over, I disagree. Being born again IS a make over. A do over. To start a life on the right path of faith, love and good works compared to the old path of self and disdain. As a chaplain, do you not see that?

So is your pay check a gift?

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Don't have to be a Chaplain to read 2 Cor 5:17

 

[St_Worm2]

A gift is not something given freely. We earn it by crucifixion and bearing the cross of Christ. Becoming one with him. We do pay for it with our own free will. Do you need for me to explain that further?

Yes, please explain that further.

Thanks!

--David

 

[Norah63]

Steve wanted bible truth. Earlier I posted Jeremiah 1:3---6
As God knew him before he was born then he must have been with God. They knew each other.

 

[drstevej]

Steve wanted bible truth. Earlier I posted Jeremiah 1:3---6
As God knew him before he was born then he must have been with God. They knew each other.

God knew Jeremiah not the reverse. That God knew Jeremiah does not require Jeremiah to be with him. You are reading your conclusions into the text. (Eisegesis)

 

[MormonFriend]

...

Salvation is a GIFT not a blue ribbon for achievement. All of us are selfish and have evil inclinations. We need forgiveness not a make-over.

And yet we learn that it is a race, where it is not the swiftest that take the "blue ribbon," but those that endure to the end are the winners! This principle, that you have ignored/avoided previously, comes back to bite you on your back side, the principle that you call yourselves already saved, and scripture declares salvation is to those who endure to the end. Those pieces in your puzzle can never fit.

Yes, we are all selfish and have evil inclinations. And it is the "enduring to the end" that represents the biblical "refiner's fire," which purges those selfish and evil inclinations. If we do not endure the trials, the evil cannot be purged, and hence we have no claim to a place where evil cannot dwell.

God's Grace provides the obstical course that we must race. The course is called "mortality." It is not a swift journey, but a course of endurance. The obsticals and opposition cannot be traveled alone, and other mortals do not have the ability to help, other than encouragement. The participant in this "race" must seek and find Divine guidance and strength to endure and succeed.

To suggest that Jesus ran the course for us makes about as much sense as a parent practicing the piano dilligently, so their child could become a concert pianist. But without the help of Jesus, there would be no piano to play. Our sins are like cutting the piano strings. The only repair can come from the atonement He has freely given us, His Grace. After we have truly repented, and demonstrate that we will no longer abuse the piano (or the life we are given), He forgives us and makes the repairs. To say we are saved before we endure to the end is saying that Jesus made the painful repairs that He suffered for, when we are going to abuse and distroy the piano again, because we have not been purged of the sin whereas we still cut piano strings. If that modus does not change in this life, it will remain with us forever. Only the Grace of God can change it, if we will endure.

 

[Ran77]

Biblical Proof?

Yes.

 

[Norah63]

What scripture is this term used in, (Eisegesis) ????
When you know someone it is because they know you also.
You can know about someone without them knowing you, but to really know someone
is a two way deal.

 

[St_Worm2]

Eisegesis = an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text. It is a reading into the text that which the interpreter believes or wants it to say.

Exegesis = is a critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially of the Bible. It attempts to draw out the meaning of the text apart from any personal bias or presupposition.

Do you believe that God, who created your body, mind, soul, spirit, and even your personality, who knows and ordains everyday of your life before any of them happen, doesn't know you .. Norah, He sees our hearts and understands each one of us in a way that even we cannot ..

 

[joneysd]

And yet we learn that it is a race, where it is not the swiftest that take the "blue ribbon," but those that endure to the end are the winners! This principle, that you have ignored/avoided previously, comes back to bite you on your back side, the principle that you call yourselves already saved, and scripture declares salvation is to those who endure to the end. Those pieces in your puzzle can never fit.

Yes, we are all selfish and have evil inclinations. And it is the "enduring to the end" that represents the biblical "refiner's fire," which purges those selfish and evil inclinations. If we do not endure the trials, the evil cannot be purged, and hence we have no claim to a place where evil cannot dwell.

God's Grace provides the obstical course that we must race. The course is called "mortality." It is not a swift journey, but a course of endurance. The obsticals and opposition cannot be traveled alone, and other mortals do not have the ability to help, other than encouragement. The participant in this "race" must seek and find Divine guidance and strength to endure and succeed.

To suggest that Jesus ran the course for us makes about as much sense as a parent practicing the piano dilligently, so their child could become a concert pianist. But without the help of Jesus, there would be no piano to play. Our sins are like cutting the piano strings. The only repair can come from the atonement He has freely given us, His Grace. After we have truly repented, and demonstrate that we will no longer abuse the piano (or the life we are given), He forgives us and makes the repairs. To say we are saved before we endure to the end is saying that Jesus made the painful repairs that He suffered for, when we are going to abuse and distroy the piano again, because we have not been purged of the sin whereas we still cut piano strings. If that modus does not change in this life, it will remain with us forever. Only the Grace of God can change it, if we will endure.

it says Jesus is the author and finisher, why do you think we need to do the work, could we earn our salvation without Jesus, so how can we earn it at all, earning your salvation or your extra gifts is like revisiting the law as the jews understood it, it becomes self indulgent, self sufficient, when our eyes should be set upon the author and finisher of our faith, he started it and he will see it to completion if we just leave him to it, i believe Jesus has in mind a finished masterpiece of us all yet some seem to think we need to give him a hand to finish the work, why not just leave it to the one who knows how the masterpiece should finish up.

 

[drstevej]

And yet we learn that it is a race, where it is not the swiftest that take the "blue ribbon," but those that endure to the end are the winners! This principle, that you have ignored/avoided previously, comes back to bite you on your back side, the principle that you call yourselves already saved, and scripture declares salvation is to those who endure to the end. Those pieces in your puzzle can never fit.

Yes, we are all selfish and have evil inclinations. And it is the "enduring to the end" that represents the biblical "refiner's fire," which purges those selfish and evil inclinations. If we do not endure the trials, the evil cannot be purged, and hence we have no claim to a place where evil cannot dwell.

God's Grace provides the obstical course that we must race. The course is called "mortality." It is not a swift journey, but a course of endurance. The obsticals and opposition cannot be traveled alone, and other mortals do not have the ability to help, other than encouragement. The participant in this "race" must seek and find Divine guidance and strength to endure and succeed.

To suggest that Jesus ran the course for us makes about as much sense as a parent practicing the piano dilligently, so their child could become a concert pianist. But without the help of Jesus, there would be no piano to play. Our sins are like cutting the piano strings. The only repair can come from the atonement He has freely given us, His Grace. After we have truly repented, and demonstrate that we will no longer abuse the piano (or the life we are given), He forgives us and makes the repairs. To say we are saved before we endure to the end is saying that Jesus made the painful repairs that He suffered for, when we are going to abuse and distroy the piano again, because we have not been purged of the sin whereas we still cut piano strings. If that modus does not change in this life, it will remain with us forever. Only the Grace of God can change it, if we will endure.

You confuse justification and sanctification.

 

[drstevej]

Yes.

Your opinion is biblical proof? More "restoration?"

 

[RDKirk]

You confuse justification and sanctification.

Lot of that going around.

Something I've been thinking about:

In 2 Corinthians 8, Paul--speaking of the handling of finances-- "maps" the Church to "Israel in the Wilderness."

But it seems most Evangelical teaching about many things Christian tend to map the Church to "Israel in the Promised Land."

It occurs to me, though, that "Israel in the Wilderness" is a very different situation from "Israel in the Promised Land," and that, indeed, just as Paul indicates, "Israel in the Wilderness" is the analogy to the Church.

The Church is definitely out of the bondage of sin (i.e., out of Egypt), yet the Church is not yet in its Promised Land of Heaven. And we can see that the 40 years of following God in the wilderness was actually a period of sanctifiction for Israel. That was the period in which all the old ways that clung to the delights of Egypt--accepting bondage in exchange for physical pleasures--were killed off. At the same time, Israel learned to follow God intently, going when He went, stopping when He stopped, keeping themselves always in the right relationship with Him (as the different Israelite tribes always traveled and camped in their specified order around the Cloud).

I recognize that the Church is analogous to Israel in the Wilderness, and that the Wilderness period was a period of sanctification--preparation for entering the Promised Land.

 

[Norah63]

Thank you St Worm. I knew what it meant, was just asking where that word was in scripture.
Or a scripture to give the word 'knew', that would represent another meaning.
Man's commentaries are of no use to me.

 

[drstevej]

Thank you St Worm. I knew what it meant, was just asking where that word was in scripture.
Or a scripture to give the word 'knew', that would represent another meaning.
Man's commentaries are of no use to me.

Do your comments on scripture merit the same evaluation?

 

[MormonFriend]

it says Jesus is the author and finisher, why do you think we need to do the work, could we earn our salvation without Jesus, so how can we earn it at all, earning your salvation or your extra gifts is like revisiting the law as the jews understood it, it becomes self indulgent, self sufficient, when our eyes should be set upon the author and finisher of our faith, he started it and he will see it to completion if we just leave him to it, i believe Jesus has in mind a finished masterpiece of us all yet some seem to think we need to give him a hand to finish the work, why not just leave it to the one who knows how the masterpiece should finish up.

Where did I ever use the word "earn"? Where did I even hint that the works or obedience, that scripture declares is a must for salvation, is a form of earning or paying for Grace?

 

[drstevej]

AFTER all WE can do -- Mormon theology (2 Nephi 25:23)

Bible >>> Not of works lest any one should boast (Eph 2:8-9)

 

[MormonFriend]

You confuse justification and sanctification.

You are doing the side step again.

 

[drstevej]

You are doing the side step again.

Not at all, just getting at the core of the issue. Sorry if you are not familiar with the terminology.

 

[Ran77]

You are doing the side step again.

I think you are correct.