Before and after Calvin.

[pawnraider]

I’ve been doing a bit of thinking lately and something I’ve noticed is that of those that accept Calvinism they do so only after reading “The Institutes of the Christian Religion” or other material communicating Calvinism. How is it that they do not believe in it or any of its major tenants until after reading such material and not before? And why is it that such people were unable to come to any of Calvin’s conclusions until then? Just an observation on my part. I know that this may be asking a lot, especially for this forum, but do try to keep the responses civil. I and everyone else will appreciate it.

 

[Elderone]

And what is the basis for your charge?

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

This is not the case, i have known more people who become Calvinists after thoughtfully reading the Bible then those who did after reading the institutes. (My self included.)

 

[JM]

I’ve been doing a bit of thinking lately and something I’ve noticed is that of those that accept Calvinism they do so only after reading “The Institutes of the Christian Religion” or other material communicating Calvinism. How is it that they do not believe in it or any of its major tenants until after reading such material and not before? And why is it that such people were unable to come to any of Calvin’s conclusions until then? Just an observation on my part. I know that this may be asking a lot, especially for this forum, but do try to keep the responses civil. I and everyone else will appreciate it.

Here's my story about how I come to believe in the sovereign grace of Almighty God and it has nothing to do with Calvin or his Institutes. I'm leaving out a lot of details for the sake of brevity.

A friend of mine was a Christian and he would talk with me about the need of Jesus Christ to save me from my sin. I was dating a women at the time who had an old Bible she never read and didn't believe in it so I asked if I could borrow it to read. I tried to start with Genesis but ended up starting the Gospel of Matthew, by the time I finished the first Gospel, I realized it was true. I started to attend a nominal church and life continued as it had before without any change for almost a year. The church I attended did not preach the Gospel at all and was more like a Rotary club meeting with crackers and wine. I would attend when I felt like it and they didn't seem to care that I would attend services after drinking and partying all night...I was a door greeter with a hangover!

I can't say I was a born again believer at this point but I knew it was true. I had no experience of Holy Spirit in my life or soul and had yet to be convicted of sin and feel the crushing weight of it. Within a year or so of reading the Bible and acknowledging its message as being true I started going through some serious trials in life and felt lead to pick up the Bible and read again. This time I started in the Psalms and was completely broken by God the Spirit and literally cried out to God in repentance and thanksgiving for saving me from myself and sin. I spent a week reading the Psalms with tears in my eyes as I now knew that God had changed my heart and knew what had been accomplished at the cross.

Now zealous to learn more about such a wonderful God and Saviour I continued reading the Gospels and Romans. By the time I finished reading Romans I had found, completely explained, what I experience during conversion. That I was dead in sin, hating God and not willing to obey Him...but that He, in his loving kindness and by His powered called me to repentance and belief. Not my will be done but His...His work completely and not mine. The new heart and inclinations I felt were given and not got by something I had done it was the opposite. God gave me a new heart so that I could believe.

At this point I was still attending a nominal church and became more active, even training to "minister" in the denomination. As I finished doing the require work I had to explain to church board members and ministers what I believed before I was given a license to preach. it was at this point I was first called a "Calvinist." I was shocked and horrified, thinking a Calvinist was something like a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon... I denied that I was a Calvinist and tried to study my way out of this "evil system." I was young and just wanted to fit in but God is good. Instead of studying my way out, the scriptures proved more and more to teach the total and complete sovereignty of God in all things. Can I get an Amen? The nominal church said I could preach anyway, they didn't really care what I believed and that it was just a formality anyway. After reading about the issues my wife and I left that church and haven't been back since.

Anyway, years passed before I finally read anything by John Calvin. God saved me and made me what folks call "a Calvinist" long before I even knew what it was. God also saved me from normal Evangelical traditions that many must struggle through before being set free by the scriptural teachings of God's sovereign grace.

I hope that helps to explain it. Evangelicalism is very traditional and teach all kinds of default positions like the pre-trib rapture and Arminianism yet many never read John Nelson Darby (theological father of Dispensationalism) or Arminius.

 

[Eddie L]

The same is true for me. I was a late-life convert who had been very angry at my family for becoming Christians for years. I cringed when I heard the name "Jesus". Through a series of odd circumstances I started listening to radio broadcasts on a Christian station, mostly just to learn how what Christianity was. One day I just wasn't angry anymore. One day I just didn't cringe anymore. Finally, one day during an ice storm and 4 hours of Christian radio broadcasts, I got home and told my wife we were Christians.

I studied the Bible on my own and could connect what it said to my own experience. I wanted to know what had happened to me, because the change was a real experience to me: I was not the same person. So, having decided to just accept what the Bible taught, when it told me I was predestined I said "ok". When it said I had been dead and was now alive I said "ok". I let the Bible provide the explanation I sought.

I was attending a non-denominational church and started attending a Bible study there. Somehow a topic of conversation about predestination came up and I answered honestly to what my understanding was. That was the first time I realized that the subject was controversial, and the first time I ever heard the word "Calvinist". It turns out that I was one without even knowing what it meant.

After that I did research. I read books by R.C. Sproul, read Spurgeon's sermons, and many other books, now that I realized that Christians disagreed on things. I wanted to know what I believed. Every time I read a book by a Calvinist author I agreed, but they weren't convincing me of anything. They were just putting labels on what I had already concluded on my own.

Most of the people I know that would claim Calvinism have a very similar story. We were Calvinists before we knew that we were. To this day I haven't read more than a few pages of what Calvin wrote. He isn't the father of my faith.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I’ve been doing a bit of thinking lately and something I’ve noticed is that of those that accept Calvinism they do so only after reading “The Institutes of the Christian Religion” or other material communicating Calvinism. How is it that they do not believe in it or any of its major tenants until after reading such material and not before? And why is it that such people were unable to come to any of Calvin’s conclusions until then? Just an observation on my part. I know that this may be asking a lot, especially for this forum, but do try to keep the responses civil. I and everyone else will appreciate it.

To my shame, I've never read "The Institutes of the Christian Religion", only bits and pieces.

Here is the short version of my story....

"I was born with the blessing of Christian parents, and to have been born in an area of 100+ Churches. However, of the 100+ Churches, there might have been one small Reformed Baptist Church, and a (conservative) PCUSA Church (no PCA, OPC, etc in this area). My parents attended Assembly of God and Baptist Churches, and brought me along. I enjoyed Sunday School, and was involved with a Royal Rangers group, Church plays, Parade floats, etc. I “accepted” or acknowledged Christ as Savior at the age of 8 and baptized a couple months or so later.

Over a course of years I grew further and further apart from my commitment to Christ. I had very little knowledge of sin and it’s effects at the age of 8, of what it really felt like to know the depths of being a stone cold sinner. As a teenager I stopped going to Church, I did my own thing, although during that time, I would confess to believe in God (and leave it at that), I no longer humbled myself to or acknowledged His authority over my life.

Many years later, many sins later, at the age of 20, I had reached rock bottom (at this point, I had an illegal drug habit). I knew I needed to change, and I knew I couldn’t do it by myself. I cried out to God, asked Him to forgive, acknowledged I couldn’t change on my own, and asked Him to change me. To make a long story short, God did change me (I stopped doing drugs overnight and have remained that way ever since). The difference was like night and day (God radically changed the desires of my heart and mind).

Three years later, I attended a local (Presbyterian based) college. I was dead set against “once saved always saved” theology. I had never even heard of John Calvin until I attended college (and even when I did it had little to no impact on me, like "ho hum, that's nice"). I really enjoyed the Bible related classes, but I needed to get some of the required courses out of the way. So I hesitantly decided to take an introductory Philosophy course. Going into it, I thought it would be very challenging to my faith, and I would not enjoy it. As it turned out through that course I really gained an appreciation for philosophy in the academic sense, especially in discovering (maybe because it was taught from a Christian perspective) it to be the handmaiden of biblical theology, and useful in not only understanding other worldviews, but defending the Christian worldview. As it turned out, the Philosophy course was one of my favorites. After a couple of years at the college I was having an extremely difficult time with some things and I dropped out.

Up to this point, I had attended a number of different Churches,Church of Godfor a couple years, a non-denominational Pentecostal Church for several years, attended at the college chapel numerous times, and visited a host of other Churches. For reasons unknown, I always struggled with “connecting” with fellow believers in an organized atmosphere, however my experiences help explain why I've attended so many Churches.

Anyway, I started to interact with people online through messageboards like CARM (Christian Apologetics Research Ministry), Theologyweb, and Christian Forums. I had spent years, praying, reading the Scriptures, studying the Scriptures and extra-biblical materials. I used the Christian based messageboards to learn, grow, and challenge my beliefs, even at the cost of being wrong. I resolved if what I believed is true, it shall stand up to the most rigid scrutiny, even the highest criticisms. I knew the challenge would require me to do much studying but that’s the cost of growing. With the cost of growing came pains. I was an adamant defender of Arminianism and my primary methodology of defending the faith was the classical (rational) approach, with some evidential and fideism sprinkled in the mix.

Over the coarse of a year or two, God opened my eyes to problems in my approach to defending the faith. These problems (another long discussion) were creating doubts, and had me considering agnosticism. I seriously started considering the possibility that I had been interpreting the Scriptures through the wrong lens, the wrong system, the wrong presuppositions. Thanks to recommendations and encouragement from the Lord, I began to listen to Dr. Van Til and shortly thereafter Dr. Bahnsen. I prayed about it, and after serious consideration and pouring over the Scriptures, I came to embrace Calvinism, Reformed theology. This was a major major change, and did not come without fear and much struggle, but I could do no other, for God had opened my eyes to truths that were before mine eyes for many years."

The task of Christian apologetics, and that I never could accept all truth as relative, had a major role in my conversion.

 

[JM]

This thread isn't going down the way pawn thought it would...lol

 

[JustAsIam77]

To the OP.. I was saved 44 years ago, it was when I began in earnest to study scripture in depth did I come to the conclusion John Calvin and Martin Luther were right, Calvins institutes were not a deciding factor.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I decided to add a little more, I more or less explained the intellectual aspect of my conversion, so I will explain the more experiential or emotional aspect as well. The Holiness of God also played a major role in my conversion to Calvinism. As I mentioned previously, I had attended Assembly of God Churches, and one of the major points of emphasis is sanctification by the Holy Spirit. I had experienced the live changing sanctification of the Holy Spirit, but over a period of time, I became more and more aware of the fact that even though I am a Christian, I still sin. That bothered me greatly, because God is Holy and calls us to be Holy, afterall Jesus said; “Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." Some time (I cannot remember) after God had regenerated me, I started watching pornography again, not on a daily basis or regularly, but every now and then I would get strong urges, and even when I was not watching pornography, as a single man, I could not stop masturbating to lustful thoughts. And the worst part is, I could not stop my willful disobedience...even though I was disgusted by it, there was a part of me that still enjoyed it. All the while, I wanted to be pure and Holy, I wanted to be like Christ. Over a period of time, this led to a shift in focus, from a Holy God to my imperfection and the imperfections of other Christians. I would read in the Bible how Christians lived, but could see very little of it in other Christians. I struggled and struggled with the Holiness of God, I felt like Luther, like it was driving me crazy. How many times must I repent of the same sin? How many times will God forgive me? What if I died without repenting of it? People like my mom, would tell me that I was just being too hard on myself...and she was right. I was tired of beating myself up with perfection. The anvil of God's Holiness had broken me and only God could put me back together. Instead of trusting in the righteousness of Christ, I had without realizing it slipped into a mindset of trusting in self-righteousness. I found that Calvinism (proper), is exactly the opposite, the sovereign grace of God is the heart of Calvinism, the glory of God alone is the aim of Calvinism, and because of this the central focus of Calvinism is God, which is to say, rather than the man centered theology which led me into self-centeredness, the God centered theology of Calvinism led me to a God centered lifeview, to a God centered life.

 

[Orange_County_Chopper]

My experience with Calvinism is very much like JM's experience. Except that the church I went to at the time was Charismatic/Pentecostal,where everyone you spoke to thought he/she was a Prophet and had a speed dial to God and had the gift of healing.

 

[Orange_County_Chopper]

Evangelical Christianity is where Arminianism runs rampant and Jesus needs help. He needs you to "make a decision for Him" instead of being the King for whom EVERY knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Evangelical Christianity is where Arminianism runs rampant and Jesus needs help. He needs you to "make a decision for Him" instead of being the King for whom EVERY knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

 

[Faith.Man]

This is not the case, i have known more people who become Calvinists after thoughtfully reading the Bible then those who did after reading the institutes. (My self included.)

I am one also. I became a Calvinist after I left the "name it and claim it" crowd. I had been leaning that way based on life experiences. I was and still am convinced of this fact by a literal reading of the Bible that God is Sovereign. God even prepared the good works we are to do. Read Ephesians 2:8 - 2:10 in context. I haven't yet read the Institutes in their entirety, and probably won't get a chance before the Lord calls me home.

 

[Elderone]

Evangelical Christianity is where Arminianism runs rampant and Jesus needs help. He needs you to "make a decision for Him" instead of being the King for whom EVERY knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

PLUS 2, at the very least.

 

[pawnraider]

This thread isn't going down the way pawn thought it would...lol

And thus the gloating. Or something very close to it. I find that others are not so interested in answering legitimate questions honestly as they are at getting their digs in which seems to be what most if not all on this board are concerned with.

 

[JM]

And thus the gloating. Or something very close to it. I find that others are not so interested in answering legitimate questions honestly as they are at getting their digs in which seems to be what most if not all on this board are concerned with.

pawn, Calvinists are often considered, at best...ugly step children of the Evangelical world so we can be a little defensive. For an example check out the "debate a calvinist" forum which was recently spammed. You will soon see people hardly ever ask questions of us seeking answers but they ask to start a fight. They ask with a chip on their shoulder. In fact, this question has been asked of me dozens and dozens of times, often with the comment, "you wouldn't be a Calvinist if you didn't follow Calvin!"

I am very sarcastic which comes off better when we are sitting in a coffee shop talking theology. You would probably find me endearing, witty and friendly. The sin of sarcasm, if it be truly a sin, is mine and does not belong to the Reformed Church or Calvinism.

 

[Elderone]

Well, pawnraider, what did you expect. You start off by accusing us of not having the brains to think for ourselves and being easily led.

something I’ve noticed is that of those that accept Calvinism they do so only after reading “The Institutes of the Christian Religion” or other material communicating Calvinism.

Then you finish up admonishing us to be civil and how you would appreciate it.

I know that this may be asking a lot, especially for this forum, but do try to keep the responses civil. I and everyone else will appreciate it.

From the condescending tone of your original post you were given much more respect by the people you were degrading then you deserved.

 

[Eddie L]

And thus the gloating. Or something very close to it. I find that others are not so interested in answering legitimate questions honestly as they are at getting their digs in which seems to be what most if not all on this board are concerned with.

Pawn, I don't see gloating. I see real experiences that differ what the one you presumed in the OP. I know lots of Calvinists, but don't know of any that truly embrace sovereign grace that didn't come to it by their own study of the Bible. Most people I know in conservative Presbyterian churches didn't start there, but moved after they came to their own conclusions and wanted to find like-minded believers.

That is contrary to the assumption of your OP.

There was a family I was in a Bible study with that was more or less synergistic Baptists (we were in a non-denominational church). Nobody showed up one day except for me and them, and they asked me what I thought about predestination. I told them, and they asked me to show them why. I walked them through the scriptures that had convinced me, and without any books by Calvinists or anything written by Calvin, both the husband and wife were excited by the time we finished the study to discover what they could not refute. They both were convinced by the scriptures that we worship the "God Who Chooses". The word "Calvinist" didn't come up the whole night.

I'm not denying that my thinking was later impacted by Sproul, Piper, Edwards, the Puritans, or Calvin, though none of them in a way that caused me to ditch synergism in favor of monergism. The Bible convinced me of monergism.

 

[pawnraider]

From the condescending tone of your original post you were given much more respect by the people you were degrading then you deserved.

So much for being civil! Regardless of what you may think or believe my "tone" wasn't one of condenscension. If you cannot or will not believe or accept that then that's your problem. Interesting how JM is given a pass and I'm not.

 

[Eddie L]

So much for being civil! Regardless of what you may think or believe my "tone" wasn't one of condenscension. If you cannot or will not believe or accept that then that's your problem. Interesting how JM is given a pass and I'm not.

You may have intended to be civil, but if you look at your OP from our POV, you have to admit it isn't hard to take it as a slam. The assumption of the OP is that the only way to become a Calvinist is through the Institutes. I didn't take offense myself (nothing personal, but what do I care what you presume? ), but I can see how other people would.