Been told

[from scratch]

i've already answered this in the thread "the ten commandments were meant to be broken".

thank you!

Would you mind telling me which of the 651 posts it is? I can go search for it. I was just hoping that you would be helpful and kind.

 

[from scratch]

JohnRabbit I'm wondering if you're going to present more foundational material about what I don't understand concerning the first covenant? If so where is the explaination of what I don't understand? I may still be trying to get the cart in front of the horse. It is just easier on the horse to pull than push something.

 

[Frogster]

Thanks. I fully undweatood but was asking for the benefit of our readers. And trying to take out claimed ambiguity claims from our friends.

oh yes,, i know u know, we are doing the same, with the hope of educating others.

 

[from scratch]

i've already answered this in the thread "the ten commandments were meant to be broken".

thank you!

Are you talking about this post? http://www.christianforums.com/t7525386-47/#post56548638

 

[YosemiteSam]

ok, after all your avoidance and spin, i will teach you, by example how to give a direct answer, I will play along..

The rule was don't eat.

So Adam ate...that was the sin....LOL...LMBO...too funny!

 

[YosemiteSam]

now, try to understand, what happened way back when.

It is history 101.

Adam broke one rule, sin and death entered.

Then Moses came, and the sin increased, as that was the point of the law, to arouse sin, as per 7:8 and 7;13, to make sin be utterly sinful, then we die to law, and are no longer under the strict pedagogue.

Listen!

There ya go, frogster taughtcha a little something.

But it was not Moses...

Moses = 613

Adam = 1.

So that is your answer on how "sin was in the world before the law came"? I am amazed beyond belief! You should really go back and re-read Romans 5 start with verse 12...see if you can put the puzzle together.

signed,
Amazed!

 

[Frogster]

So that is your answer on how "sin was in the world before the law came"? I am amazed beyond belief! You should really go back and re-read Romans 5 start with verse 12...see if you can put the puzzle together.

signed,
Amazed!

Why? Here it is..I am sitting here loling! ONE>>ONE>>>ONE>>>>

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.


So how about a rebuttal already, on man, one sin, death entered.
ONE...ONE....

 

[Frogster]

So Adam ate...that was the sin....LOL...LMBO...too funny!

It was a golden delicious apple.

 

[Frogster]

So that is your answer on how "sin was in the world before the law came"? I am amazed beyond belief! You should really go back and re-read Romans 5 start with verse 12...see if you can put the puzzle together.

signed,
Amazed!

tell me if you see a pattern here. Do you understand headship?

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

 

[from scratch]

So Adam ate...that was the sin....LOL...LMBO...too funny!

Now what is so funny about that? The fact that Adam was now given clothes and thrown out of the garden. Or maybe it was his shame after having sined that is so funny.

 

[from scratch]

So that is your answer on how "sin was in the world before the law came"? I am amazed beyond belief! You should really go back and re-read Romans 5 start with verse 12...see if you can put the puzzle together.

signed,
Amazed!

Are you asking for a full documentation of every sin? Or are you saying that didn't qualify as to breaking the law? Can you do better?

 

[from scratch]

It was a golden delicious apple.

One of my favorites.

 

[Frogster]

One of my favorites.

left over from your adamic side.

 

[Heavens]

I don't have a clue what the first covenant is. So I'm here on a fact finding mission. I guess while we are at it I would like to see how many covenants there are and if any have a relationship with another, If so what is that relationship?

Hi, sorry I'm late Whats going on? Covenant? Caught my eye

Well, the first covenant as termed in the N.T. was the first marriage covenant of God to Israel at Sinai.
But it was an inferior "type" of marriage/covenant that didn't bring forth a son of God. His Israel wife was barren, no salvation brought forth with her. Just an Ishmael kind of lineage. The first marriage covenant was just a 'type' pointing forward to the true Marriage covenant of Christ to His redeemed Israel Bride in the "Law of Life".
Only in the New marriage Covenant in Christ could the Life giving everlasting covenant of Abraham bring forth Sons of God, of which Christ is the firstfruits
There's other little covenants too, but I suppose the thread has covered them already. How am I doin?

 

[from scratch]

Hi, sorry I'm late Whats going on? Covenant? Caught my eye

Well, the first covenant as termed in the N.T. was the first marriage covenant of God to Israel at Sinai.
But it was an inferior "type" of marriage/covenant that didn't bring forth a son of God. His Israel wife was barren, no salvation brought forth with her. Just an Ishmael kind of lineage. The first marriage covenant was just a 'type' pointing forward to the true Marriage covenant of Christ to His redeemed Israel Bride in the "Law of Life".
Only in the New marriage Covenant in Christ could the Life giving everlasting covenant of Abraham bring forth Sons of God, of which Christ is the firstfruits
There's other little covenants too, but I suppose the thread has covered them already. How am I doin?

Welcome to the Covenant Theology sub forum and our discussion. Covenant is one of my favorite topics.

Hope you read all the thread to see what is going on. I don't quite know what to say about how you're doing so far. I'm very mixed about your statements. I can see the analogy tho. The marriage did produce the Son with Whom I'm a joint heir Rom 8:17.

 

[Heavens]

Welcome to the Covenant Theology sub forum and our discussion. Covenant is one of my favorite topics.

Hope you read all the thread to see what is going on. I don't quite know what to say about how you're doing so far. I'm very mixed about your statements. I can see the analogy tho. The marriage did produce the Son with Whom I'm a joint heir Rom 8:17.

I've got dial up so I haven't read much. Yep, the new Covenant in Christ rocks To be brief and concise, I'll give a little more of how God reveals the Covenant fulfillment.

The Old law marriage produced a Son in the flesh, the "Son of David".

(Rom 1:3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the
seed of David according to the flesh;

That son died though, the old law cursed Him and condemned him to death. No inheritance there as I'm sure you know.

But Christ, the Son of God, was born of the New Covenant, from the dead, in resurrection. The Heiritage of Life can only come in the new marriage covenant of course. Something altogether new, having nothing to do with the old law covenant;

(Rom 1:4) And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

I am dead to that old law marriage, for I died in Christ in baptism. Those of that old law were widowed at the death of Christ, Israel's covenanted husband.
But now, I'm remarried to Christ resurrected in His New Covenant brought to light Praise Jesus!
So my relationship to Jesus, is of Him who is the Son of God of the New Covenant in resurrection from the dead. That is why the old covenant law vanished away, to make room for the eternal life giving covenant in Christ!

It comes out perfect the way God says it lol! Like here for example;

(Rom 7:1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
(Rom 7:2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
(Rom 7:3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Children of God are produced by Jesus raised from the dead in the New Law Marriage with Jesus!
Only death came from that old mosaic law.

Thank you Jesus for redeeming us from under THAT old law for sure!

 

[from scratch]

I've got dial up so I haven't read much. Yep, the new Covenant in Christ rocks To be brief and concise, I'll give a little more of how God reveals the Covenant fulfillment.

The Old law marriage produced a Son in the flesh, the "Son of David".

(Rom 1:3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the
seed of David according to the flesh;

That son died though, the old law cursed Him and condemned him to death. No inheritance there as I'm sure you know.

But Christ, the Son of God, was born of the New Covenant, from the dead, in resurrection. The Heiritage of Life can only come in the new marriage covenant of course. Something altogether new, having nothing to do with the old law covenant;

(Rom 1:4) And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

I am dead to that old law marriage, for I died in Christ in baptism. Those of that old law were widowed at the death of Christ, Israel's covenanted husband.
But now, I'm remarried to Christ resurrected in His New Covenant brought to light Praise Jesus!
So my relationship to Jesus, is of Him who is the Son of God of the New Covenant in resurrection from the dead. That is why the old covenant law vanished away, to make room for the eternal life giving covenant in Christ!

It comes out perfect the way God says it lol! Like here for example;

(Rom 7:1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
(Rom 7:2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
(Rom 7:3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Children of God are produced by Jesus raised from the dead in the New Law Marriage with Jesus!
Only death came from that old mosaic law.

Thank you Jesus for redeeming us from under THAT old law for sure!

Poor JohnRabbit, now he's got another grace pusher to deal with.

The real focus of the thread is supposed to be what I don't understand about the first covenant.

I do welcome your input about the NC though. From my/our position it is hard to discuss the first covenant. I have been trying hard not to discuss much because I'm waiting on JohnRabbit to show me what all I don't understand about the first covenant.

What do you have to say pro or con about the first covenant?

 

[Heavens]

Poor JohnRabbit, now he's got another grace pusher to deal with.

The real focus of the thread is supposed to be what I don't understand about the first covenant.

I do welcome your input about the NC though. From my/our position it is hard to discuss the first covenant. I have been trying hard not to discuss much because I'm waiting on JohnRabbit to show me what all I don't understand about the first covenant.

What do you have to say pro or con about the first covenant?

Grace pusher? I don't understand. Who is johnrabbit Is he a non believer or an unregenerated jew or something? What don't you understand about that old covenant scratch? Or is that a way of saying he doesn't agree with these things?

If you don't understand the first covenant, I'd be happy to share with you privately if you like?
It is a great study really. It is all about how God chose a wife out from the gentiles, and then she broke her marriage vows to him on her wedding day by committing adultery against Him. So Moses broke the tables of stone, signifying that the marriage covenant was broken and was over before it even really started. She was destined for divorce, then finally widowed when she killed her husband.
The mosaic covenant was all a "type". Temporary until He who was the fulfillment would come. It meant nothing other than turning the Israelites' hearts to their future coming Messiah, whom they were to prepare as virgins for their bridegroom. When Jesus came, those faithful received Him. Those who didn't, die under that old marriage law. There is no "oil in that lamp" for sure.
The unregenerate, like the Jews and their "other gospel" and "jewish fables" that destroyed Christians in the N.T., don't understand the law as being fulfilled and of no more affect on the planet.
The only value the Old mosaic law had, was to demonstrate spiritual things amongst carnal and physical people and buildings and "observances", by which eyes would open to recognizing the reality of those things in Christ.
You understand these things so far scratch? I see that frogster and son of israel comprehend these things now, in review... hmmm, your questions appear to have been thoroughly answered with excellent truth...

Hi also frogster, Soi pleased to meet you

 

[from scratch]

Grace pusher? I don't understand. Who is johnrabbit Is he a non believer or an unregenerated jew or something? What don't you understand about that old covenant scratch? Or is that a way of saying he doesn't agree with these things?

I think that JohnRabbit is influenced by the SDA organization. He is very pro law - thus a law pusher. Frogster and my self are very hard core NC types - grace pushers opposed to pushing or trying to bind Christians to the law (OC). YosemiteSam called us law haters. LOL. They are both on the same side and friends at least.

It is JohnRabbits challenge from another thread of mine called 10 commandments aremeant to be broken found here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7525386/#post56480855 . He sid that I don't understand the first covenant and this thread is my call on his bluff. So far he has given a definition of covenant and listed 613 laws found therin that he gathered from some other site and pasted. I guess you would have to understand where the SDA is coming from. I have had a friend trying to convert me to their church longer than I care to remember. My so called friend is upset with me because I have given a solid answer to everything he has presented in his evangelistic effort even to the point of cussing me after a good number of years. Essentially everything I say is wrong even definitions taken from the dictionary. He even said some words don't exist and I would present him with a photo copy from the dictionary. Must be part German.

If you don't understand the first covenant, I'd be happy to share with you privately if you like?

I don't think it is so much that I personally don't understand the first covenant (OC) as it is the fact I don't agree with JohnRabbit's idea of Christianity. He is shooting for conversion of a very strong opponent. I feel very much that he is asking me and others to forsake Christ and live by the law and not grace. We keep feeding him stuff like Romans, Galatians, Hebrews and a few other scattered references especially non Pauline support for the NC. He wishes to claim that the Christian is obligated to parts of the law (OC) override what we call the NC that he says doesn't come into focus or force until the second coming of Christ. He believes that we must become perfect according to the law as his church teaches before Christ can come back the second time. Very Ellen G. White.

It is a great study really. It is all about how God chose a wife out from the gentiles, and then she broke her marriage vows to him on her wedding day by committing adultery against Him. So Moses broke the tables of stone, signifying that the marriage covenant was broken and was over before it even really started. She was destined for divorce, then finally widowed when she killed her husband.

Maybe you should do a thread on it either here or in GT. It would get way more exposure in GT. Might even be a very popular thread. The two most contested subjects here are the law and the Sabbath. At the moment both are down to simmer at the moment. I'm sure they aren't forgotten.

The mosaic covenant was all a "type". Temporary until He who was the fulfillment would come. It meant nothing other than turning the Israelites' hearts to their future coming Messiah, whom they were to prepare as virgins for their bridegroom. When Jesus came, those faithful received Him. Those who didn't, die under that old marriage law. There is no "oil in that lamp" for sure.
The unregenerate, like the Jews and their "other gospel" and "jewish fables" that destroyed Christians in the N.T., don't understand the law as being fulfilled and of no more affect on the planet.
The only value the Old mosaic law had, was to demonstrate spiritual things amongst carnal and physical people and buildings and "observances", by which eyes would open to recognizing the reality of those things in Christ.
You understand these things so far scratch? I see that frogster and son of israel comprehend these things now, in review... hmmm, your questions appear to have been thoroughly answered with excellent truth...

Hi also frogster, Soi pleased to meet you

Ah Frogster has also greeted you. He's one of my friends. I just didn't see it yet. Hope this fills you in some what.

 

[Heavens]

Nice up to date summary, thank you Scratch! A follower of the sda, of course. Good luck with that. I was saved from out of a Jewish persuasion myself. So much pride and man made thought patterns... it is identical to what Jesus suffered at the hands of the Pharisees it seems. All their unenlightened reliance upon the law and the old covenant. Now I see what's going on... You have your work cut out for you it appears dear brother I think Paul was stoned a number of times by them so put on your armor of God!
Blessings in Christ