becomming christian from intense fear

[preistsplace]

wow that is very true. What exactly do you think destruction means then?

The impure by mandate of the law had to stay outside of the gates of the camp or city,but this in no way said they copuld not be purified...
In many cases they were instructed to bath with water and were pronounced unclean until evening. In others before the could come into the city they had to pass before the preist. In others they had to be outside of the city for a period of time. Which becomes very interesting when we see those in the lake of fire, as they are outside of the city
and of course unclean........

 

[werr]

Like a parent spanking a kid into right behavior, in fact maybe God should send us to hell for a period of time when we willfully disobey him and maybe Joe would think twice about cooking the books at work after being burned alive for even 20 min and returned to his body. How many times would you cuss out your mom if you knew 20 min in hell was going to happen.

God does punish the ones who believe in him to give them a lesson and help them remain in the correct path. But the real punishment will not come before death. He has left us with a choice. We can either follow him and after death be with him or we can disobey and follow our own nature and be punished for eternity in hell, which was originally created for the devil, not for the humans....

 

[akeng]

So if you are not being punished in this life right now, it either means you are not doing anything to displease God or you are not really saved? Also is hell a place where you are punished BY God/Angels or are you just subjected to the will of the devil/demons, I would think the devil would be suffering his own torment at the hand of God rather than being allowed to torment humans. I guess it would make more sense to be punished by God since being punished by the devil would be like your father allowing your brother to punish you when he was part of the same transgression. I dont know if that makes things better but at least you know you are being punished God and know you deserve it ...... I guess. So if your life is good and your not experienceing a trial is that cause to worry, or is it maybe that you have become so good at crisis management from so many trials it does not bother you any more? Also if it was created for the devil and demons why does the bible make it seem so easy to get to hell when it was not there for us in the first place, you would think it would be harder to get to hell than heaven if it was not even created for us in the first place, I think that is strange. I would think hell would be reserved for only the most evil of people but that is not what the bible suggests.

God does punish the ones who believe in him to give them a lesson and help them remain in the correct path. But the real punishment will not come before death. He has left us with a choice. We can either follow him and after death be with him or we can disobey and follow our own nature and be punished for eternity in hell, which was originally created for the devil, not for the humans....

 

[preistsplace]

AK....God is the one punishing,therefore the punishments have to be just and loving. God is Love(1 John 4:8). The scripture says that he is love which is important here . His nature is love...His nature is not seperate from his being at times and present at other times.......He is Love ..all of the time

 

[akeng]

Does hell sound like a place that is just and loving? I have heard that in the apocolypse of peter it actually says hell is not eternal, would such a statement be in contradiction with the rest of the bible, where in the bible does it actually say hell is eternal. if it is eternal how is that just or loving? Its alot of hard questions. It is impossible to reconsile that God is love if hell is eternal, its like 2 brothers one behaves poorly and the other does what he is suppose to, the one mis behaving does not get spanked for eternity, he gets spanked until he gets it right. What opprotunity is there once someone goes to hell, what is the point other than just torture becasue you made some mistakes in your life.

AK....God is the one punishing,therefore the punishments have to be just and loving. God is Love(1 John 4:8). The scripture says that he is love which is important here . His nature is love...His nature is not seperate from his being at times and present at other times.......He is Love ..all of the time

 

[Nadiine]

Does hell sound like a place that is just and loving? I have heard that in the apocolypse of peter it actually says hell is not eternal, would such a statement be in contradiction with the rest of the bible, where in the bible does it actually say hell is eternal. if it is eternal how is that just or loving? Its alot of hard questions. It is impossible to reconsile that God is love if hell is eternal, its like 2 brothers one behaves poorly and the other does what he is suppose to, the one mis behaving does not get spanked for eternity, he gets spanked until he gets it right. What opprotunity is there once someone goes to hell, what is the point other than just torture becasue you made some mistakes in your life.

This is the perfect example of human emotion and reason minus
God's reasoning. & God warns us about using our way and our
thoughts becuz His so much further above ours.

This isn't about punishment to "get it right" - there's nothing left to
relive and "do over" again. THIS IS IT brother. This life IS IT - the
preparation for the next eternal one.
What we do in this life affects the next forever. Our choices now
decide our fate.
I don't see what's so impossibly hard to fathom about that.
We're told there are 2 lives - physical & spiritual.
When the physical dies, it takes on immortality.

What we do here, affects our rewards and placing in heaven (position or service/duty if you will), or it affects our degree of loss upon eternal separation from God. Listen, if you don't want God in this life and chose your own, why in the world does God want to subject that person to eternal life with Him?

They would also be bringing evil into God's newly regenerated world.
People are banished from God and "life" becuz God cannot let sin
back out to corrupt His new creation He's giving those who loved
Him and CHOSE RIGHTEOUSNESS instead of their own gods.

This isn't just about "punish the bad kids" then they can get chance
#2, it's about their sin that has not been atoned for, and they are
then forced to pay for their own (eternally) and cannot be let out
from where God is putting them.

I liken it to nuclear waste. Do you just take 20 barrels of toxic
goo and put it in people's homes? Do you just dump them in
kids playgrounds? Do you leave nuclear waste by the side of the
road? What do you with highly toxic waste?
It has to be disposed of properly so it doesn't harm others and
contaminate the earth.

Sin is even more toxic than nuclear waste - ALL SIN if left alone,
brings disease and death. God has promised to end sin and death
once for all - His death on the cross sealed the fate of Satan and
made Him victorious over evil and the grave.

God cannot let unrepented sin back out of its containment.
One either has Christ's righteous blood covering their sin, or they
stand before God in "nuclear waste" and must be contained and
responsible for their own hazardous waste that they didn't seek
cleansing for when they had the opportunity to do so.

We have got to start thinking like God thinks and stop with our
emotional ploys. We do NOT love people more than GOD loves
people; they are His creation.

One last note about God's love and your love - would you let a
child be molested if you could stop it? No you wouldn't. Neither
would I. Does that prove God isn't love becuz He allows horrible
things to happen to innocent kids and people?
NO.
So obviously, we cannot use our standards and emotions to decide
God's love. His plan and scope go much further than human's ever
will becuz he knows the beginning from end and knows WHY each
thing that happens must be done or allowed.

God should never be restrained in our self created boxes.

 

[Nadiine]

what is the point other than just torture becasue you made some mistakes in your life.

This should be highlighted as well -

this displays a view on sin itself - sin is now just "some mistakes"....
it's no longer serious. If Jesus had to die for these "little mistakes",
then doesn't that show us how horrible they really are?
Sin is So serious that every single one of them lead to utter destruction
in their fruition. The CORE/source of sin is evil itself.

It's also focusing on acts of sin while ignoring the biggest evil of all,
DENIAL OF JESUS CHRIST - rejecting Him as Saviour in order to
cover all those sins.

People don't get condemned for 'some mistakes' (sin
is the symptom; the result of corruption), they are condemned
becuz they rejected their only atonement for those "mistakes"
and refused to repent & love righteousness.
John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world,
and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


Christ DIED and did everything He could to bridge that gap and
open the door to us - all we have to do is believe in faith and repent.
He did all the hard work paying for what we deserve!

How would you take it if you had an only son and your son was
tortured for hours till near death, then nailed to a tree to suffer
a few more hours till he died - just for someone else and they didn't
give a poop about it?
Didn't thank you, in fact blamed you for things they disliked about
the incident & made jokes about him?

Would you not be offended and angry? God watched His Son being
tortured and slowly killed for all of us - taking a penalty WE deserve.
Then He's supposed to wink when these people who ignored that
and spit on His grace show up for front seats in heaven?

Oh and by the way, ENJOYED living against what He commanded and
harmed many other people thru those wrongs?

God is love, He is NOT a carpet to walk on. Sadly, that's what our
churches are teaching anymore, a passive, wimpy, hippy in his tye dye
robe & peace beads just BEGGING people to love Him.

Do they teach on His wrath? His purity? Holiness? Majesty?
Mostly not. I think this is why we've become so distorted in how
we view God; we lack balance becuz we do not consider all His
attributes equally.

 

[akeng]

What about a drug addict who is working to get off the drugs and dies in a car accident. He is a believer but is not off the drugs yet, is he considered unrepentant and subject to hell

What about a male and female that are having sexual relations and are planning to get married but in the mean time cant keep there hands off each other. but they are both believers is it unrepentant sin

What about people who divorce and remarry for something other than cheating.

People who are trying to make things right but die before it is complete. Are these non repentant sinners who go to hell? I guess what it boils down to is what is repentance, if you are working through something and die is that is.

I guess it does not really matter, God is going to do what God is going to do, do I call torturing people for eternity love, no but what are you going to do about it ... nothing. You see that is the difference, separatoin from God does not have to mean torture but that is what God has made it, how is that loving. Unsaved/unrepentant people could be separated from God without being tortured but God chose to involve torture and that does not sound loving to me. I sometimes feel like I believe and work on doing the right thing because of lack of better options not because I want to. When the consequences of 2 different actions are so radically extreme how can we call that free will, sure there is a choise but not much of one. Free choise is picking a play station instead of an Xbox not picking eternal torture vs not torture.

 

[Nadiine]

You see that is the difference, separatoin from God does not have to mean torture but that is what God has made it, how is that loving. Unsaved/unrepentant people could be separated from God without being tortured but God chose to involve torture and that does not sound loving to me. I sometimes feel like I believe and work on doing the right thing because of lack of better options not because I want to. When the consequences of 2 different actions are so radically extreme how can we call that free will, sure there is a choise but not much of one. Free choise is picking a play station instead of an Xbox not picking eternal torture vs not torture.

What about a drug addict who is working to get off the drugs and dies in a car accident. He is a believer but is not off the drugs yet, is he considered unrepentant and subject to hell

What about a male and female that are having sexual relations and are planning to get married but in the mean time cant keep there hands off each other. but they are both believers is it unrepentant sin

What about people who divorce and remarry for something other than cheating.

Well, what about it? How about what God says. If God says something is
sin and they neglect the Saviour who paid the way for them, then
all sins will be counted against them at the time of their judgment.

What this amounts to looks like apathy towards different sins that,
to you, don't seem as bad as others.

We can't create our own scale for which sins are ok and which aren't.
I'm not sure when God handed human beings a throne to judge which sins
are acceptable? :o

ALL sin is from the same source - Evil itself. Satan. Without
the blood of Christ to atone and cover for just ONE SIN, you
cannot enter heaven.
That's why everyone who refuses to recieve their forgiveness
thru Christ can't enter eternal life with Him and has to pay their
own sin debt.

It isn't about which sins, it's about refusal to recieve forgiveness.
If you have a free ticket and don't take the ticket, who's fault
is it? God's? He did all the work for us.

It's not like people are clueless & unable to accept Jesus,
they don't WANT Jesus.

People don't just commit one sin in their entire life either.
The adultery gets added to thousands & thousands of curse words,
words that harmed other people thru malicious lies & gossip.
Pride, coveting, hating. . . treating people poorly, etc.
people are full of sins that add up year after year.

I guess it does not really matter, God is going to do what God is going to do, do I call torturing people for eternity love, no but what are you going to do about it ... nothing.

How about LOVE OF GOD first?

The 2 greatest commands Jesus kept us under are Love of God first,
love of man 2nd. What of man's love towards God in this?
Do you care if people don't love God? Don't honor Him? glorify Him?
worship Him? Return gifts of offerings to Him? Give Him their lives?
You're basically advocating that God be benevolent towards us
no matter what we do and how much we reject Him.
Right?

Plus, you're putting God on a human level as if He
has to love us our way (which means: no pain, no punishments, no trials,
no harm, supporting our sin and justifying it away, etc.)

You're demanding or wanting God to be a person who isn't holy
or pure or loving essentially.
Have you stopped to think any of your reasoning through?

You see that is the difference, separatoin from God does not have to mean torture but that is what God has made it, how is that loving.

How is what THEY did loving towards God? And how is what they did
to other people loving towards others?
Each sin we commit violates God's love laws - either love of others
as self or love of God above all else.
But God's supposed to ignore all that? And the rejection of Him -
His sacrifice of life ?

And when one is separated from God, aren't all God's attributes
taken away from them that they benefit from today?

What is God? Light, truth, goodness, love, justice, peace...
how would life be without light, love, goodness or peace?
Take those away and I'd say that's torment.

I know it's become a cliche' line in Christianity, but it's true -
God doesn't people there, they send themselves by refusing
God's grace to save them from that fate.

 

[akeng]

I was not trying to make any sin better or worse I understand all sin is the same thoes were just examples.

Lets say a person is doing X and are in the process of working on not doing X but they die before they finish there work. There heart was with God but they were having difficulties stopping X (drinking, pot what have you). Is this unrepentance?

 

[preistsplace]

I believe that decision is left up to God..only he can know if the person was really trying to stop, or making excuses to sin.

 

[YourChild]

In other words you can't be scared of going to hell and expect to end up in heaven.

Are you saying a Christian should not show any concern or fear if he is failing to carry out the predestined-Kingdom work/plan which God has assigned him? Should a failing Christian just continue to sit back and relax and enjoy God's love naively, then later hear these words from Jesus at the gates of heaven, "Who are you? begone from Me, you who did not do the will of My Father."

Phi 2:12
"...work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

 

[Nadiine]

What if these 'unrepentant' are our family, friends and loved ones? Just frail and fallible flesh and blood who aren't consciously trying to wage some war against God but merely don't believe or agnostic? Why is it that some people seem intent on portraying all non believers as wilfully rebellious towards God? I would want those people in my midst because I believe that an all powerful God can bring all people back into the 'fold', where every tear is wiped away, not just those who think that other people go on weeping into eternity...

God CAN do alot of things, it doesn't mean He does them!
God COULD have stopped the invasion and recent murder of the couple who had 16 children (12 adopted). But He did not.
Would you or I have kept them from killing those parents?
I WOULD HAVE!

And I'm confused how can God bring a lost soul "back into the fold"
when they were never in it in the first place?
Nor did they want to be.

Here's what Jesus says:
Matthew 12:30
[ The Unpardonable Sin ] " He who is not with Me is against Me;
and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

If you are not FOR GOD, by default, you are directly against Him.
There isn't any neutrality here in rejection of Christ & His salvation
by faith. God doesn't view it like people do.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world,
and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


What I mostly see are people ignoring that God gave them an
inner conscience to know His precepts and commands, that
God is and has been calling them to salvation and repentance,
and that they ARE rejecting that calling and hardening to the
process inwardly..
(see Romans 1:18-32 & Romans 2:14-15).

They aren't being ignored by God, they're being worked over by
His Spirit thru conviction of sin every day!
John 16
7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

1. Hebrews 3:15
   while it is said:“ Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
   Hebrews 3:14-16 (in Context) Hebrews 3 (Whole Chapter)
2. Hebrews 4:7
   again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said: “ Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”

People HARDEN their hearts every time they reject God - every time
He brings inner conviction of their sin (which is the Spirit's duty).
Again, this isn't neutrality at all.
Choices are made by rejection of being drawn and convicted by God
inwardly.

God gives us the ability to choose, therefore, they will end up
suffering the consequences of their free will to choose.

 

[Nadiine]

Are you saying a Christian should not show any concern or fear if he is failing to carry out the predestined-Kingdom work/plan which God has assigned him? Should a failing Christian just continue to sit back and relax and enjoy God's love naively, then later hear these words from Jesus at the gates of heaven, "Who are you? begone from Me, you who did not do the will of My Father."

Phi 2:12
"...work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

yep, and that defeats Jesus' own warnings:

Mark 9:43
42"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble,
it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.
" If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off;
it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands,
to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

If that isn't a radical, scary, alarming warning to turn around, I don't
know what is.

 

[Criada]

Can anyone give one verse of scripture where hell is equated to eternal punishment?
Eternal fire is mentioned.. but generally something thrown into a fire is burned up pretty quickly, however long the fire itself lasts.
The idea of eternal torment as punishment for sins committed in life is more reminiscent of graeco-roman mythology than of anything found in the bible, old or new testament.

 

[Nadiine]

Can anyone give one verse of scripture where hell is equated to eternal punishment?
Eternal fire is mentioned.. but generally something thrown into a fire is burned up pretty quickly, however long the fire itself lasts.
The idea of eternal torment as punishment for sins committed in life is more reminiscent of graeco-roman mythology than of anything found in the bible, old or new testament.

There's Luke 16:19-?

Hell is the "holding place" (if you will) of those facing the
judgment seat of Christ.

The Lake of Fire/Gehenna is the 2nd death and it's called eternal
in Matt. 25 and Revelation 19, 20 or 21?
It gives detail about the judgment process, what happens to
Satan and then the newly restored kingdom God creates.

But we can't forget that just as in eternal life there are levels of
reward according to what we've done, there are also levels of
punishment according to what people have done or not done.

The key in my mind about condemnation is this, whether or not
there's literal fire isn't the issue. The torment is lack of God's
presence and all that God is/provides.

Right now on earth, the lost benefit from God's presence and recieve
blessings in this life. It won't be the case eternally when they're
cast out of His presence.
They rejected their atonement (Christ & His sacrifice of life) and chose darkness over Light - they will recieve their choice.

What I find most alarming is people's willingness to carry apathy
about the fact that people are literally ignoring and dont' CARE
that Jesus died and suffered to save them; and rejecting God
isn't such a huge deal at all.

This shows me an apathy towards the meaning of the true gospel and mission of Christ in general.
The day we don't think rebellion to God and ignoring Jesus Christ and
His sacrifice are worthy of eternal condemnation, is the day WE have become tainted & apathetic towards truth & righteousness.

It's not any poor reflection of God's justice. WE are the ones
calloused and sympathetic to evil.

 

[preistsplace]

Can anyone give one verse of scripture where hell is equated to eternal punishment?
Eternal fire is mentioned.. but generally something thrown into a fire is burned up pretty quickly, however long the fire itself lasts.
The idea of eternal torment as punishment for sins committed in life is more reminiscent of graeco-roman mythology than of anything found in the bible, old or new testament.

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
there is nothing in this scripture that says it is eternal, it states that at the time they are talking the gulf is there and this reasoning gos perfectly well with the next scripture......
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
The very idea expressed here is that during the time which one is cast in they can in no way come out or escape the full measurement of their punishment. If the penalty were eternal then "the uttermost farthing" is misleading because this suggests measur3ed punishment and not the same eternal sentence for all transgressions.

 

[preistsplace]

as far as the other verses quoted in Nadines post they all used the word aion or aionios in the original greek, and many scholars have reasearched these words and discovered that they do not in and of themselves signify eternal. IE the revelations texts actually in the KJV are translated "forever and ever" suggesting that there is more than forever. The original says something like aion of the aions, aion when translated correctly means age so we have age of the ages. this phrase seems to me to be referring to the millenial reign of Christ as it is the most exalted age o9f the ages.
you can find more info on this at
Jesus saves all mankind, the truly Good News, Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation--Doctrine of Inclusion--Restitution of all--Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Gospel of the Bible
http://hopebeyondhell.net
and talk with some people about this and other UR questions at
http://wisefiretv
blessings in Christ

 

[preistsplace]

There's Luke 16:19-?

The Lake of Fire/Gehenna is the 2nd death and it's called eternal
in Matt. 25 and Revelation 19, 20 or 21?

the second death and death is cast into it, death is destroyed ther is no more death...literal or figurative ...there is punishment but God's punishment is remedial.

But we can't forget that just as in eternal life there are levels of
reward according to what we've done, there are also levels of
punishment according to what people have done or not done.

The key in my mind about condemnation is this, whether or not
there's literal fire isn't the issue. The torment is lack of God's
presence and all that God is/provides.

read this again ....If LOF/ second death are seperation from God how can there be different levels, you are either seperated or not.

Right now on earth, the lost benefit from God's presence and recieve
blessings in this life. It won't be the case eternally when they're
cast out of His presence.
They rejected their atonement (Christ & His sacrifice of life) and chose darkness over Light - they will recieve their choice.

here we are saying that mans will to reject the gift is stronger or equally as strong as God's will to give it as we are "rejecting it forever and ever"

What I find most alarming is people's willingness to carry apathy
about the fact that people are literally ignoring and dont' CARE
that Jesus died and suffered to save them; and rejecting God
isn't such a huge deal at all.

some people literally don't know that Jesus died to save them.

This shows me an apathy towards the meaning of the true gospel and mission of Christ in general.
The day we don't think rebellion to God and ignoring Jesus Christ and
His sacrifice are worthy of eternal condemnation, is the day WE have become tainted & apathetic towards truth & righteousness.

It's not any poor reflection of God's justice. WE are the ones
calloused and sympathetic to evil.

eternal damnation is a poor representation of God's justice BTW scripture clearly states that his mercy is greater than his justice.

 

[Nadiine]

eternal damnation is a poor representation of God's justice BTW scripture clearly states that his mercy is greater than his justice.

How is it a poor representation of His justice, when it
DEFINES His justice?

Mercy is greater - it never means He gives no mercy tho does it?

Mercy is ALSO greater than sacrifice - did that stop the sacrifices
from the OT?
Did it stop Jesus' life sacrifice?

Also, you need to check out other scripture than to just
narrowly hang onto one verse as if it cancels out all
lack of mercy as well.
Just becuz something is "greater than" something else, never
means it's never practiced.
Kindness is always better than rebuke - that cannot negate the
necessity of rebuke as if it's always bad/wrong.

That would mean too that a parent should never punish their
children becuz mercy and lack of punishment is always greater.

Here's what scripture says:
Hebrews 10:27-29
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE
WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy
on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve
who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as
unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified,
and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

James 2:13
For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy;
mercy triumphs over judgment.

God repays the merciless with the same level of judgment
they gave others.
Imo, you're misinterpreting that verse; it's about human mercy
towards one another, not that God as judge has to have mercy.
He refutes that in Romans 9:
15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY,
AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Matthew 7:2
"For in the way you judge, you will be judged;
and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.